Divine identity of Jesus

[Jonah]

I had some questions about what I read on the material posted in regards
to the General Conference (The Message, the Meaning, and the Multitude)

One concluding thought: Joseph Smith’s 19th-century frontier environment was 
aflame with competing crowds of Christian witnesses. But in the tumult they 
created, these exuberant revivalists were, ironically, obscuring the very 
Savior young Joseph so earnestly sought. Battling what he called 'darkness 
and confusion,' he retreated to the solitude of a grove of trees where he 
saw and heard a more glorious witness of the Savior’s centrality to the 
gospel than anything we have mentioned here this morning. With a gift of 
sight unimagined and unanticipated, Joseph beheld in vision his Heavenly 
Father, the great God of the universe, and Jesus Christ, His perfect Only 
Begotten Son. Then the Father set the example we have been applauding this 
morning: He pointed to Jesus, saying: "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
No greater expression of Jesus's divine identity, His primacy in the plan 
of salvation, and His standing in the eyes of God could ever exceed that 
short seven-word declaration.

How were they obscuring the Savior?

Regarding the term 'begotten', what is the difference in how Jesus was
one of many spirit children begotten of Heavenly Mother and Father and the
reference to Jesus being the only begotten of the Father (through an
earthly woman instead of a heavenly one)?  Was he begotten both inside and 
outside a marriage covenant between husband and wife?

Jonah/Rachel

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

[1] How were they obscuring the Savior?

[2] Regarding the term 'begotten', what is the difference in how Jesus was
one of many spirit children begotten of Heavenly Mother and Father and the
reference to Jesus being the only begotten of the Father (through an
earthly woman instead of a heavenly one)?  Was he begotten both inside and 
outside a marriage covenant between husband and wife?

Jonah/Rachel

Welcome!

1.  The fact that many of Smith’s nominally “Christian” contemporaries pitched a hissy fit when Joseph claimed to have seen the Savior and heard His voice suggests that for all their good intentions and Biblical allegiances, they preferred (or at least, had been brought up such they were only capable of contemplating) a dead, muzzled, predictable Jesus rather than a living, speaking Jesus with a mind of His own.

2.  Speculations aside, we really don’t know the mechanics of how Jesus’ mortal body was conceived; other than that it occurred in such a way that a) no mortal man was involved, and b) Jesus inherited a number of His Father’s physical attributes, just as any son would.  Whether there was some sort of specialized “covenant” between the Father and Mary, and/or whether that covenant might be called a “marriage” relationship, are matters of pure conjecture.

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, Jonah said:

.....

How were they obscuring the Savior?

Regarding the term 'begotten', what is the difference in how Jesus was
one of many spirit children begotten of Heavenly Mother and Father and the
reference to Jesus being the only begotten of the Father (through an
earthly woman instead of a heavenly one)?  Was he begotten both inside and 
outside a marriage covenant between husband and wife?

Jonah/Rachel

I believe your question is a well thought out and deep question.  May I begin by pointing out that when divine information is given to mankind in our fallen state that on the surface there is a great deal of ambiguity.  For example we are told to worship G-d and love our fellow man.   But these thoughts and words are hardly descriptive enough to settle all differences of opinions that could and do arise  to clearly define either worship of G-d or love of our fellow man.  I would bring a couple of thoughts and ideas to bear.

Up until the time of Joseph Smith all that we in our day knew of either G-d or Jesus was what was left to us in what remained of the Holy Scriptures.  As an amiture student of history I have studied the science of manuscripts.  The Bible scriptures are considered pure information given from G-d to holy prophets prepared and sent by G-d for the purpose of informing us of divine and spiritual things.  But in the science of manuscripts there are two kinds of originals.  The first is called an "autograph".   An autograph is any manuscript written by the individual or their chosen scribe from which the manuscript originated.  The second type of original is called an "autogram".  This is a manuscript copied directly from an autograph by someone other that the creator of an autograph during the lifetime of the originator.

As wonderful as the Bible is there are no original manuscripts.  If we were to apply the standards of our own law - there are no first hand accounts (originals) to give witness of G-d or his Son, Jesus the Christ.  By definition, religious tradition has left the Judeo - Christian societies with nothing but obscured witnesses of G-d and his Son.  As a result and testament of the obscurities there are thousands of "Churches" all claiming trueful doctrine of G-d and his Son, Jesus the Christ.  History is replete with such obscurities that arguments over truthfulness in religion has not displayed just attitudes of hate but even wars destroying millions of religious faithful - each side claiming they understand G-d and Christ better than the other. 

Isaiah correctly pointed out that G-d is obscured from man - not by doctrine but by three other divine elements:  I list Isaiah's witness of such obscurity First - by transgression of the law.  Second by changing the ordinances  and Third by breaking the everlasting covenant.

 

Now concerning what is the meaning of Jesus being the only begotten of G-d the Father.  Much of what was understood anciently concerning "Kingdoms" has been lost in our modern era.  The begotten of the supreme Suzerain of ancient Kingdoms - and I would point out that G-d does govern the universe as his kingdom over which he is the supreme Suzerain is the heir of the supreme Suzerain - has become obscured in our modern era.  The meaning is that Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ is the only authorized, anointed (or Messiah) and ordained heir of G-d the Father.  That Jesus is the only mediator with the Father authorized to speak in his name.

Since Jesus is G-d, appointed mediator by the Father, he alone can speak in the Father's name.  But Jesus has commanded many to take upon them his G-dly name and speak for him (but not the Father).  Jesus authorized and ordained his heirs to speak for him and called them his Apostles - which also means witnesses.  Because of obscurity of truth many have usurped divine authority in the very characteristic of Satan and claim to speak for the Father.  I would point out that the title of Pope means father.  This means that many religious leaders have commited divine treason in claiming they speak for the Father usurping his only begotten.

Though this is only a piece of truth for which much more could be spoken - hopefully this introduction understanding will rest with you why there must be a restoration to prepare for when Christ will return again and establish his reign of peace for 1,000 years.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 14, 2019 by Traveler

[mikbone]

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/doctrine-firstborn-and-only-begotten

I have found this document enlightening concerning the term begotten.

[Jane_Doe]

On 10/13/2019 at 7:07 AM, Jonah said:

Regarding the term 'begotten', what is the difference in how Jesus was one of many spirit children begotten of Heavenly Mother and Father and the reference to Jesus being the only begotten of the Father (through an earthly woman instead of a heavenly one)?

Hi Jonah/Rachel!  Welcome to the forum. I'm going to touch on a couple of points in a disorganized fashion here--

Jesus Christ alone is the Only Begotten and the Firstborn.  Those are both titles, and existed before His mortal birth to Mary.  While we all are children of Heavenly Parents, Christ alone has been the Son of God.  He always perfectly in the Father's ways, and is His heir.  Rest of us are not remotely so-- we're nothing by ourselves.  

On 10/13/2019 at 7:07 AM, Jonah said:

  Was he begotten both inside and  outside a marriage covenant between husband and wife?

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are married and sealed. 

 

 

Another point:

LDS Christians believe that Christ has always existed in some form.  We don't know the physics behind how a pre-begotton intelligence is different than a begotten spirit.  But then again, we also don't know how a physical body comes back to life and how a glorified resurrected body is, and we humans have been studying physical human biology for thousands of years.

 

[Jersey Boy]

On 10/13/2019 at 9:07 AM, Jonah said:

I had some questions about what I read on the material posted in regards
to the General Conference (The Message, the Meaning, and the Multitude)

One concluding thought: Joseph Smith’s 19th-century frontier environment was 
aflame with competing crowds of Christian witnesses. But in the tumult they 
created, these exuberant revivalists were, ironically, obscuring the very 
Savior young Joseph so earnestly sought. Battling what he called 'darkness 
and confusion,' he retreated to the solitude of a grove of trees where he 
saw and heard a more glorious witness of the Savior’s centrality to the 
gospel than anything we have mentioned here this morning. With a gift of 
sight unimagined and unanticipated, Joseph beheld in vision his Heavenly 
Father, the great God of the universe, and Jesus Christ, His perfect Only 
Begotten Son. Then the Father set the example we have been applauding this 
morning: He pointed to Jesus, saying: "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
No greater expression of Jesus's divine identity, His primacy in the plan 
of salvation, and His standing in the eyes of God could ever exceed that 
short seven-word declaration.

How were they obscuring the Savior?

Regarding the term 'begotten', what is the difference in how Jesus was
one of many spirit children begotten of Heavenly Mother and Father and the
reference to Jesus being the only begotten of the Father (through an
earthly woman instead of a heavenly one)?  Was he begotten both inside and 
outside a marriage covenant between husband and wife?

Jonah/Rachel

It appears you missed the core point of the message and somehow got sidetracked into focusing on tangential issues. The basic point being made is that rather than enlightening young Joseph’s mind to help him to come to a deeper understanding of and appreciation for the Savior, the zealous preaching of those contending ministers filled his mind with darkness and confusion. By contrast, an actual theophanic vision of the Father and the Son, a dramatic and extremely powerful form of personal revelation, instantaneously dispelled all of the darkness and confusion that had previously afflicted Joseph by filling his mind with certainty and a flood of revelatory light. It’s like the prophet Joseph Smith once said, “a man can learn more by gazing into heaven for five minutes than he ever could by spending a lifetime reading books on the subject.” The bottom line? Personal revelation is a far superior way to learn about the things of God than listening to the preaching of ministers who wrongly assert apostles, prophets are no longer needed in the Church and that the canon of scripture is permanently filled. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Jersey Boy