Vort Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, MormonGator said: They probably don't have time to meet with the average LDS who just has a bone to pick with the choices they have made. Not an insult, but these guys are busy and would probably correctly tell you to speak to a bishop about it. In my (limited) experience, temple presidencies are pretty good about meeting with people who want to talk with them. If they know the person wants to complain about one of their decisions, maybe that would affect their availability. SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, Vort said: In my (limited) experience, temple presidencies are pretty good about meeting with people who want to talk with them. If they know the person wants to complain about one of their decisions, maybe that would affect their availability. Good. That makes me feel better. Like I said, I'm sure they are busy men, and it's very nice of them to take the time out of their days to talk to people. I wasn't being sarcastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 36 minutes ago, MormonGator said: They probably don't have time to meet with the average LDS who just has a bone to pick with the choices they have made. Not an insult, but these guys are busy and would probably correctly tell you to speak to a bishop about it. You are up 3-0 against us my friend. Are you watching the game? Didn't they even ask members not to write to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Grunt said: Didn't they even ask members not to write to them? Handbook 2:21.1.24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said: Furthermore, the presidency of a temple in whose district I do not reside has zero stewardship over me and merits no more deference from me than the deference I’d give to the pre-excommunication versions of Kate Kelley, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer, or any other beloved-but-errant brother or sister in Christ. And by the same token you have ZERO stewardship over them. Where is your authority to call them to account? You have none... Worse yet you are substituting your judgement where you have no stewardship over someone that God has called and appointed that stewardship to. What make you think you have divined the mind and will of God on the matter when you have absolutely no stewardship on the subject? For me it is a simple matter of Faith. Christ is in control. He guides his church. If he causes something to be done that I do not understand or agree with... it is my understanding and agreement that needs to change. And if someone God has called has messed up... He has that too. Our mistakes do not, can not thwart God's plan. If something is happening in the church that we have no stewardship over, it is not our place to act like we do and to try to assume power. Nor it is our place to treat the Kingdom of God like a Democracy and demand our voice be heard, even if we are absolutely convinced we are right... That is ark steading. If we do have some form of stewardship relationship then we can act within the limits of that relationship and we are entitled to know the mind and will of God with in those limits. mirkwood and SilentOne 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, estradling75 said: If he causes something to be done that I do not understand or agree with... it is my understanding and agreement that needs to change. How far does this go for you? If the church sanctioned gay marriage would you think the same way? Not an insult, just asking a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) More people are concerned about not making waves vs standing in principles. We have some serious misunderstanding in this church with regards to members responsibility. For many members, the entirety of the gospel is boiled down to follow the leader. It doesn't matter what he says or does it doesn't matter that the current leader could reverse course 180 degrees from yesterday just follow him. That's not healthy. It boils down to a cult like mentality. It's not the way they church is set up and it's not the pattern of the scriptures. The leader could say we should all cut off our pinkies and members would do it. It reduces being a member in this church to an un thinking robot. The leaders are the very incarnation of Christ... Except they have never said that. Not a single member of the Q15 today proclaims they have seen Him. Not a single one claims they have had visions of Him. Edited November 2, 2019 by Nissan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, MormonGator said: How far does this go for you? If the church sanctioned gay marriage would you think the same way? Not an insult, just asking a question. Yes a good portion of Orthodox members would flip on a dime. It means we have no principles except one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Nissan said: Yes a good portion of Orthodox members would flip on a dime It would be fascinating to watch. Every other religion that has sanctioned gay marriage has plummeted in attendance and had splinters break off. I'm sure the same sort of thing would happen in the LDS church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 I really don't understand the belief that the Church cannot fall into apostasy. It is not the pattern in scriptures. It sets us up as better more righteous more privileged more everything than anyone who had gone before. The only thing in scripture is that the priesthood will not be taken away. But today doesn't mean apostasy churchwide couldn't happen. In the book of Mormon. King Noah's priest had the priesthood. Alma was a wicked priest who had the priesthood. He didn't need it confired upon him by someone else because he already had it.... But the people of Noah were rebellious and in apostasy bc they were wicked. It's pretty easy to see the patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, MormonGator said: It would be fascinating to watch. Every other religion that has sanctioned gay marriage has plummeted in attendance and had splinters break off. I'm sure the same sort of thing would happen in the LDS church. Oh it will happen. I don't think it will be sanctioned from the top initially. All you need is a few Bishops a few stake presidents and a temple president. Bishops and SPs to sign the recommends and a TP to do the sealing. If members found out, well we should just shut up about it bc it falls outside our lane. But you have one thing incorrect, it not because of homosexuality that churches are plummiting. It's the other way around. Church attendence rates and faith is plummiting and therefore churches are changing to try and get back people they have lost. The product so to speak isn't selling anymore, so churches are changing the product. Edited November 2, 2019 by Nissan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, Nissan said: For many some members, the entirety of the gospel is boiled down to follow the leader. It doesn't matter what he says or does it doesn't matter that the current leader could reverse course 180 degrees from yesterday just follow him. Fixed that for you. Some think/act that way. Very few members I know will blindly follow. SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, Nissan said: But you have one thing incorrect, it not because of homosexuality that churches are plummiting. Uh, I wasn't saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, MormonGator said: It would be fascinating to watch. Every other religion that has sanctioned gay marriage has plummeted in attendance and had splinters break off. I'm sure the same sort of thing would happen in the LDS church. We won't go down this path as a church, so it is a moot point in reality. Grunt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, mirkwood said: Fixed that for you. Some think/act that way. Very few members I know will blindly follow. You are correct, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, mirkwood said: We won't go down this path as a church, so it is a moot point in reality. Why not? What will prevent it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, mirkwood said: We won't go down this path as a church, so it is a moot point in reality. I'll make a bet with you. If the church sanctions gay marriage in twenty years, you have to listen every single Kiss album in existence, including the awful solo albums in the 1970's. If the church doesn't sanction it, I owe you a cheese burger. Edited November 2, 2019 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 The apostasy has already occurred...and then Joseph Smith helped restore the fullness. There is no second apostasy. If you believe there is, you believe in a different church/gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 The problem is that apostasy is the end result, not the beginning. General apostasy comes about because of general wickedness. It has nothing to do with follow the leader, but with righteousness. A righteous people will not fall into apostasy a wicked people will automatically fall into it. And that had nothing to do with follow the leader, but with following Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 24 minutes ago, MormonGator said: How far does this go for you? If the church sanctioned gay marriage would you think the same way? Not an insult, just asking a question. You think I have not struggled? You think I have not had my own issues with Church leaders? Do you think I have not had to ask myself what does God want from me? Because I have. The purpose of this life is to see if we will do all that God commands. Not all that the Church commands. Notice my phrasing "If HE caused" not "If the Church caused" I happen to have a testimony that this is HIS church. That HE is at the head and that HE is in control, no matter how weak and flawed his servants are. Maybe the HE wants the Genocidal, Pedophile, Nazi choir singing in Temple square. Maybe HE does not. What I know for sure is that I do not get to vote on the matter. If it is HIS will I can only get cut off opposing it... If it is not HIS will then I can only cut myself off demeaning that HE fix the way I think HE should fix it. SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Sorry, you believe in a different church/gospel/doctrine then the LDS church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, mirkwood said: The apostasy has already occurred...and then Joseph Smith helped restore the fullness. There is no second apostasy. If you believe there is, you believe in a different church/gospel. Why would Christ need to come again? The pattern is clear, every time He has come it is to set His house in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 1 minute ago, mirkwood said: The apostasy has already occurred...and then Joseph Smith helped restore the fullness. There is no second apostasy. If you believe there is, you believe in a different church/gospel. So as a church body we are guaranteed to not become a wicked people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 Just now, estradling75 said: You think I have not struggled? You think I have not had my own issues with Church leaders? Do you think I have not had to ask myself what does God want from me? Because I have. Dude, chill. I didn't say any of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissan Posted November 2, 2019 Report Share Posted November 2, 2019 I also have a testimony that this is His Church. Christ will not divorce us.... But we can most certainly go whoring after other gods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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