I am an LDS Card Counter.


LugiaLvl138
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On the subject of gambling versus investing, I would like to share my experience as an LDS Card Counter. I play Blackjack in Nevada casinos in a way that gives me about a 1% edge over the house. This is proven by math. But to get there, I had to memorize a set of playing decisions called basic strategy, count the cards as they are dealt, figure out the true count by estimating how many cards remain to be dealt, size my bets accordingly, and memorize when to break from basic strategy according to the true count.

Due to my Autism, I can do all of the above in a busy casino, and I can do it while chatting with the dealer or other players to appear less obvious. Like a less powerful but still effective Rainman. I have already been told in no uncertain terms that I am not allowed to play Blackjack at 2 of the 3 casinos in Mesquite Nevada, which pretty much proves that I am a winning player. I also think that being LDS gives me another advantage since avoiding alcohol and drugs is second nature to me. Both of those things are associated with casinos, and both of them would throw off my mental game.

Why then, does the Church oppose what I do? I do this on certain weekends in addition to my weekday job. On my weekend in Mesquite, I visited the YSA Branch. I told everyone what I was doing in town. One of the Bishopric Wives told me "Oh, you don't want to gamble dear." A couple of the other guys in the Branch however, were pretty impressed.

Also, I have a running joke about how "You can trust the Bishop's investing company right?" Referring to the fact that affinity fraud is rampant in Utah and that sadly, anyone scammed by it would have been better off going to Vegas and putting it all on red in Roulette. Or even better, used it as a Card Counting bankroll.

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Well, I'm impressed too, but I still think the Lord doesn't want you to gamble.   Casino gambling is just institutionalized preying on the weak and vulnerable, a legal business that exploits a vice.  Like running a liquor store (or a whorehouse in Nevada where it's legal). 

So you've got a system because of a handy neurodivergent quirk.  Legal doesn't mean moral.  Can doesn't mean should.  The fact that some LDS folks are crooks, doesn't mean legal gambling is ok.  

But yeah, the ability is still pretty impressive.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1.  In gambling, for someone to win, someone else has to lose.  Not necessarily so with investing.  (Some forms, maybe; but not all forms.)

2.  Even if gambling and investing were perfectly analogous, tu quoque is a logical fallacy.  

3.  Your participation in gambling has led you to openly attack your bishop.  Not cool, bro—you may want to rethink your life a bit.

4.  On the other hand—in my experience Nevada Mormons generally tend to be a lot more relaxed about gambling than me, many even drawing their livelihoods from/working at the casinos themselves.  It’d be awfully hypocritical for nominally LDS folks who have sold themselves to The House, to come back and accuse you of apostasy for violating the cardinal rule about The House always winning.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I'm not attacking my Bishop. I've never had a Bishop that got charged with affinity fraud or the like. However, there are people that use their calling to build trust to commit affinity fraud. In the press just recently, was a Bishop charged with Child Pornography. It's a very sad situation for that Ward, and for those that knew him, but I'm not going to attack my Bishop over it.

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5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

4.  On the other hand—in my experience Nevada Mormons generally tend to be a lot more relaxed about gambling than me, many even drawing their livelihoods from/working at the casinos themselves.  It’d be awfully hypocritical for nominally LDS folks who have sold themselves to The House, to come back and accuse you of apostasy for violating the cardinal rule about The House always winning.

Yeah... but then there's the "kicked out of 2 casinos" bit.  Which means - cheating.  Card counting is cheating.  You walk into a casino knowing this rule.  Deliberately cheating because you're an autist and some kind of moral superiority claim over the house odds is... still cheating.  Thou shalt not cheat is somewhere in those commandments.

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2 minutes ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

I'm not attacking my Bishop. I've never had a Bishop that got charged with affinity fraud or the like. However, there are people that use their calling to build trust to commit affinity fraud. In the press just recently, was a Bishop charged with Child Pornography. It's a very sad situation for that Ward, and for those that knew him, but I'm not going to attack my Bishop over it.

My sins don't get wiped just because somebody else sins more than me.

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1 minute ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

I'm not attacking my Bishop. I've never had a Bishop that got charged with affinity fraud or the like. However, there are people that use their calling to build trust to commit affinity fraud. In the press just recently, was a Bishop charged with Child Pornography. It's a very sad situation for that Ward, and for those that knew him, but I'm not going to attack my Bishop over it.

Nice dodge.  You’re throwing mud all over other Church members and institutions and traditions—including bishops—to distract from your own shortcomings.  But since you (now claim you) are talking about “bishops” generically rather than any one named bishop, that makes it OK?  (If I said something unkind about autistic people and then tried to excuse myself by saying I meant autistic people generally, not you specifically—you wouldn’t let me get away with that; nor should you.) 

Look, we’ve all got stuff in our lives we need to improve.  I doubt any of us considers ourselves “better than” you—I certainly don’t.  The trouble is when we start using the real or imagined foibles of others (investing!  affinity fraud! kiddie porn!) to convince ourselves that WE don’t need to change.  

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My sins don't get wiped just because somebody else sins more than me.

IMO, this is the bottom line. I have no sympathy (as in zero, nada, goose egg) for the casinos. But the Ten Commandments don't specify, "Thou shalt not steal, unless thou stealest from a casino." The very fact that card-counting is "cheating" and "illegal" is strong evidence for the corruption of the whole gambling culture. But then, why involve yourself in that culture at all? Why swim in the sewer? "Because it's profitable" is a bunch of very long steps down the path to hell. Prostitution is also both profitable and legal (in Nevada). Is that fair game, too? Is it okay to profit from selling women's sexual favors as long as you personally don't, you know, do the deed? Prostitution is wicked, but pimping is okay?

Anyway, good luck with your decision. It seems clear to me that this is a path you don't want to tread.

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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah... but then there's the "kicked out of 2 casinos" bit.  Which means - cheating.  Card counting is cheating.  You walk into a casino knowing this rule.  Deliberately cheating because you're an autist and some kind of moral superiority claim over the house odds is... still cheating.  Thou shalt not cheat is somewhere in those commandments.

Oh, I agree that this “my self-enriching cheating’s OK because I’m only cheating the cheaters” schtick is bunkum.  

I’m just pointing out that it’s not like the casinos are innocent victims here; and for an LDS casino employee to get on their high horse about the OP’s supposed immorality is . . . hypocritical.    

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The church (and the Lords) stance on gambling is very clear.

Worse case you have decided that the Lord's rules do not apply to you..  If that is the case then REPENT.

Best case you have a personal revelation where the Lord for whatever reason says it is Ok for you personally.

The last one is something you need to be very careful about being actually true..  And even if it is.. the whole personal part of it means you keep your mouth shut about it.  It is not your place or calling to proclaim new doctrine.  If the Lord wanted the church to know that he was OK with Card Counting he has a prophet and other recognized authority figures/leaders to do so.  You are not one of those.

And the fact that you are trying to justify your behavior by pointing out the sins of others... well that is the behavior of someone that is in denial about there need to repent... not the actions of someone that is confident of their standing before God.

 

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I would actually be afraid if an announcement was made in General Conference about the Lord being OK with Card Counting, because Nevada Casinos would then likely view LDS players with increased suspicion.

I like the fact that someone put the words cheating and stealing in quotes, because Card Counting is 100% legal as long as it is done without mechanical or electronic assistance. The casino as a private business can however tell me to stop playing Blackjack, or request that I leave. Actual cheating such as marking cards would give me a one way ticket to Elko or Clark County Jail, plus a felony charge.

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3 minutes ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

I would actually be afraid if an announcement was made in General Conference about the Lord being OK with Card Counting, because Nevada Casinos would then likely view LDS players with increased suspicion.

I like the fact that someone put the words cheating and stealing in quotes, because Card Counting is 100% legal as long as it is done without mechanical or electronic assistance. The casino as a private business can however tell me to stop playing Blackjack, or request that I leave. Actual cheating such as marking cards would give me a one way ticket to Elko or Clark County Jail, plus a felony charge.

I doubt you would ever hear that announcement in General Conference as the Church has always been very vocal regarding gambling.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/gambling?lang=eng

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4 minutes ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

I would actually be afraid if an announcement was made in General Conference about the Lord being OK with Card Counting, because Nevada Casinos would then likely view LDS players with increased suspicion.

I like the fact that someone put the words cheating and stealing in quotes, because Card Counting is 100% legal as long as it is done without mechanical or electronic assistance. The casino as a private business can however tell me to stop playing Blackjack, or request that I leave. Actual cheating such as marking cards would give me a one way ticket to Elko or Clark County Jail, plus a felony charge.

Way to miss the point... and dodge the issues

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4 minutes ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

I would actually be afraid if an announcement was made in General Conference about the Lord being OK with Card Counting, because Nevada Casinos would then likely view LDS players with increased suspicion.

I like the fact that someone put the words cheating and stealing in quotes, because Card Counting is 100% legal as long as it is done without mechanical or electronic assistance. The casino as a private business can however tell me to stop playing Blackjack, or request that I leave. Actual cheating such as marking cards would give me a one way ticket to Elko or Clark County Jail, plus a felony charge.

So...  it's not cheating if it is legal.  So like, adultery is not adultery because it's legal.... oooo-kay.

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29 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Nice dodge.  You’re throwing mud all over other Church members and institutions and traditions—including bishops—to distract from your own shortcomings.  But since you (now claim you) are talking about “bishops” generically rather than any one named bishop, that makes it OK?  (If I said something unkind about autistic people and then tried to excuse myself by saying I meant autistic people generally, not you specifically—you wouldn’t let me get away with that; nor should you.) 

I think he was just pointing out risk factors. People think of gambling as risky, but trusting others simply because of their calling in the church can be just as, or more, risky than betting on red.  I don't think he was trying to smear anyone or distract.  Just compare.

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1 minute ago, dprh said:

I think he was just pointing out risk factors. People think of gambling as risky, but trusting others simply because of their calling in the church can be just as, or more, risky than betting on red.  I don't think he was trying to smear anyone or distract.  Just compare.

Actually the OP states gambling vs investing.

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10 minutes ago, pam said:

Actually the OP states gambling vs investing.

Right.  And part of his point, at the end, was "investing" can be more risky than gambling. He uses affinity fraud to support this claim.  Maybe I should have added "with your money" between "trusting" and "others" in my post.

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4 minutes ago, dprh said:

Right.  And part of his point, at the end, was "investing" can be more risky than gambling. He uses affinity fraud to support this claim.  Maybe I should have added "with your money" between "trusting" and "others" in my post.

I just saw the comment about the Bishop as being somewhat of an, "Oh by the way."  :)  

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I'm going to disagree with the majority here and say it's not actually against the Gospel to Gamble.  The church itself is not strictly against gambling such as saying it is a commandment (by which I mean commandments such as no coffee, tobacco, or alcohol, no stealing, no killing, etc) though it is against games of chance as an organization speaking in general..

I'd say that the Church dissuades people from Gambling and is against the institution overall...but in the like manner, the Church is ALSO against people watching R-rated movies in a similar vein or ANY movie which does not spiritually uplift someone or has filthy content (which would also include many PG-13 and PG movies in that as well, but normally if they are forced to state a US rating [vs. ratings in other nations which do NOT follow the US rating) it would be no R-rated movies and others should be taken with somewhat with caution.

That said, there are MANY MEMBERS that watch R-rated movies.  They flagrantly and blatantly ignore the advice on this. What happens to them?

Nothing.

Why?

Because it's simply advice from the Church.  It is not a rule, it is not a commandment as such (for example, do not drink coffee is a commandment that the church adhere's strongly too.  Don't go watch R-rated Horror movies in the theater on Sunday could also be seen as a commandment, but not one that is going to really be enforced strictly.  The R-rated movie idea is more this latter idea than the former).

In that same vein, gambling is not strictly against the adhered and enforced commandments of the Church.  The church has an official page where they state...

Quote

Gambling is motivated by a desire to get something for nothing. This desire is spiritually destructive. It leads participants away from the Savior’s teachings of love and service and toward the selfishness of the adversary. It undermines the virtues of work and thrift and the desire to give honest effort in all we do.

Those who participate in gambling soon discover the deception in the idea that they can give little or nothing and receive something of value in return. They find that they give up large amounts of money, their own honor, and the respect of family members and friends. Deceived and addicted, they often gamble with funds they should use for other purposes, such as meeting the basic needs of their families. Gamblers sometimes become so enslaved and so desperate to pay gambling debts that they turn to stealing, giving up their own good name.

Ironically, this can ALSO be applied to all sorts of ideas...INCLUDING INVESTING for most people.  Many would shy away from this idea, but isn't the idea that you don't do any work, but simply let the money lie in an account or stocks and it magically increases?  Most are not qualified stock investors nor are they qualified bankers. 

For that reason, in some ways, Usury was also discouraged among many Christians of former centuries...as it could also be seen as a multitude of sins, one being the ability to get something for doing nothing. 

However, there is another reason beyond just the idea of getting something for nothing that the Church has opposed in relation to gambling over the years and this has to do with the SAME items of the Word of Wisdom (which seeing the church relax on one of the MOST ADDICTIVE substances that people utilize, caffeine, it actually makes one wonder about their actual stance on addiction, nevertheless...here is a quote).

Quote

To these statements of the position of the Church I add my own. The pursuit of a game of chance may seem like harmless fun. But there attaches to it an intensity that actually shows on the faces of those who are playing. And in all too many cases this practice, which appears innocent, can lead to an actual addiction. The Church has been and is now opposed to this practice. If you have never been involved in poker games or other forms of gambling, don’t start. If you are involved, then quit now while you can do so.

Gordon B. Hinckley, April 2004 General Conference, -Gambling.

It can lead to addiction, and in general, the church dissuades people from joining in with addictions.

Thus, in general, just like the Church is opposed to many various items politically it is opposed to the Gambling establishment.  However, unlike some other things, you normally are not going to get excommunicated or, unless it is extreme, even disciplined over this issue.  Even if one is in an extreme case, that normally is a circumstance of the luck of the draw of whether you get a more stressed out leadership or a more relaxed leadership in your ward or stake.

So, yes, the church is opposed to it on paper, but in reality, enough members gamble and have no consequences from it that in actuality it's not really something the church opposes in action individually on a personal level.  They WILL advise against it for the above reasons.

However, even without money at stake, cards, games of chance, and many other things we do with our past times (which I would probably include video games of today, many of our various boardgames that we use to while way our time, and of which I have played plenty of in my lifetime, and other recreational activities of chance) have been stated to be a waste of time and thus also discouraged.  It amuses me that because the prophets dissuaded people from facecards will then turn around and play Rook (which is basically a form of Bridge/spades but with cards that have been deviated a little from facecards, but overall is the same idea).  They miss the entire idea of why the face cards were advised against.  It was not just gambling, but that the game itself was seen as a frivolous waste of time.

Considering all the many various things of advice over the years that members blatantly ignore in favor of their pet vices (and I am also just as guilty as anyone else, as I said, my family and I play boardgames quite a bit when we get together) such as R-rated movies, caffeinated drinks (when Kimball had advised against it for similar reasons to gambling due to the addictive qualities of caffeine as well as any other addictive item, activity, or substance), or various other activities, I'd say the church is just about as opposed to your activities as many others which the Saints engage in.

Which is to say unless you are addicted to it (and from what you say, you might be, hard to say), I probably wouldn't sweat it too much regarding your vices vs. everyone else who also have their pet vices. 

As the prophets have advised, I'd probably say there are better uses to one's time than games of chance (whether for money or not), but there are probably far worse things you could be doing than gambling your time away at the casinos. 

Other reasons the church would be opposed to gambling in the US, and especially in Nevada is the historic organizations behind the gambling establishments.  These would be the Mafia (which many mock at times, but overall...yes...the Mafia has had a great hand in gambling, as well as prostitution and drugs).  Supporting such organizations has typically not been something the church is in favor of and normally they try to be on the opposite side of the table than where the Mafia or other such organizations are operating. 

Finally, it is the tradition of Christianity to be opposed to gambling.  This is similar to many other Christian traditions (rather than what is found in the gospels) where tradition says one thing and they adhere to it, even if science has shown that the belief they exhibit is actually not true. 

Gambling overall does not make most people who gamble addicts, but it could be seen as a desire to get gain for various reasons, or just a waste of time.  I suppose it is up to the individual.

So in summary, the church as an organization is against Gambling in general, and has given advice against gambling or supporting it's institution because...

1. Getting gain for nothing seems anti-work and not beneficial to the spirit.  It is contrary to the idea of hard work and thrift as well.

2. It is seen as addictive

3.  It's a waste of time which could be used doing something to build oneself up such as reading scriptures or doing service

4. It has several undesirable elements and organizations which typically are against the morals of the church

5.  Tradition

However, as I said, many in the Church ignore various forms of advice given over the years (another example, how many have food storage?) and in the end, many times it's due to personal beliefs, ideas, or thoughts on the matter.  Your gambling activities may not be in line with what the church advises, but at least it's not as bad as some of the other vices some members participate in.  Which means we should still work towards perfection, but we all are at different levels of getting there...myself included.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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1 hour ago, LugiaLvl138 said:

My gambling versus investing bit was twofold. Yes I was pointing out that there is risk in investing too. I am also claiming that Card Counting is much more like investing than gambling. This is backed up by Colin Jones, owner and founder of Blackjack Apprenticeship.

We all have excuses of WHY we do things.  Why make excuses on it?

Depending on the type of investing, it can be a LOT like gambling.  It probably depends on the type of investing.  Investing like a gambler is a MAJOR thing these days and generally seems to be accepted by society far more than gambling, though it is pretty much the same thing.  People like to think they are informed, but in reality, as you would put it, card counting is perhaps more reliable than when someone puts things on the stock market in wild gambles on what they HOPE will rise rather than fall.

The same could go for many various types of investments.  The principles are also the same to a great degree, getting something for nothing.  The hope is to "invest" money into something and that something will give them more money in the long run.  Thus, they do nothing, but wait, and get more money.

I partially fault the astronomical rise of house prices in some areas due to this type of  "investment" greed.  Rather than settle on fair prices where they really do not make any profit, everyone wants money for nothing.

On the otherhand, some investments are NOT gambling, but are hard work and endeavors.  Putting time, effort, and money into starting a legitimate type of business, for example, being a grocer, is a type of investment which is not expecting something from nothing.  In many instances the individual starting the company makes less then minimum wage for the beginning of the company as they work long hours just to try to keep it afloat.  In the long run, a successful business, if they do get to be successful (a majority of new businesses fail), will probably be a better investment overall than the gambling types of investments.

However, gambling is gambling whether you see it as an investment or not.  We can make excuses out of the wazoo (and I've seen many of them regarding R-rated Movies, Caffeine, even Ice Tea, Green Tea, and tobacco products), but whether we choose to follow certain types of advice in how we lead our lives is one choice that we need to make.  The advice out there is to not gamble...if one chooses to gamble regardless, just say you're a gambler and leave it at that.  There's no reason to make excuses or reason why we do the things we do.  A LOT of  Members gamble in Nevada, many from Utah travel to Nevada to do so.  Gambling does not make you unique among the LDS.

Perhaps you are better at it and can gain a bit of profit (or, if you want to phrase it as an investment), but simply because you choose to do what many other Saints do in gambling is not a reason to try to explain why your gambling is a much better "investment" than theirs is over the long run.

Your original topic opener is probably the best one, that you are a LDS card counter.  Leave it at that as that can be an interesting subject in and of itself on different experiences you had and various other things than trying to excuse it that you are making investments instead.  Most LDS who gamble probably aren't all that concerned on whether or not the other members care...they probably are more into it for fun, enjoyment, or simply to gamble for the heck of it.

Some may give you slack, but there are many others who really couldn't care.  As I said, the church officially may have statements against gambling, advice not to gamble, but in action they rarely actually do anything that actively dissuades any members who choose to do so from gambling at all...meaning it is mostly bark and no bite in that.

Thus, I don't see the reason to complain that the Church is opposed to it, when you actually look at what actions they take pertaining to it, and in actively opposing gambling on a personal level is VERY limited at all (in fact I've never known a single individual personally that was excommunicated or anything close to it for gambling at all).

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

Some may give you slack, but there are many others who really couldn't care.  As I said, the church officially may have statements against gambling, advice not to gamble, but in action they rarely actually do anything that actively dissuades any members who choose to do so from gambling at all...meaning it is mostly bark and no bite in that.

Thus, I don't see the reason to complain that the Church is opposed to it, when you actually look at what actions they take pertaining to it, and in actively opposing gambling on a personal level is VERY limited at all (in fact I've never known a single individual personally that was excommunicated or anything close to it for gambling at all).

This might be generally but I could see and I know there have been cases that temple recommends were denied and disciplinary action has been taken.  When the gambling addiction has gotten to a point that other responsibilities are not being met.  Especially when it comes to the financial responsibility of children.  

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10 hours ago, pam said:

This might be generally but I could see and I know there have been cases that temple recommends were denied and disciplinary action has been taken.  When the gambling addiction has gotten to a point that other responsibilities are not being met.  Especially when it comes to the financial responsibility of children.  

This would hold true for any addiction overall not specifically just for gambling.  As I mentioned above, this normally also falls to leader roulette (since we are talking about gambling here) regarding it being specific to gambling in their addiction or not.  I've seen where some leaders do some actions in regards to some things, while others will not.  Overall, with the numbers of Saints going to Nevada to gamble, most choose not to do much about gambling.  They will address abuse and neglect that may arise from addictions and other items, but gambling itself is normally not an issue most will do anything about.

Of course, most are not addicted to gambling either. 

In some instances I have found that there are minor things in the Kingdom and major things.  Nitpicking people to death on minor things do not normally produce a positive result...especially when they want it to be a focus rather than other ideas.  Addiction is a serious thing, but gambling in and of itself is not something I, nor most are going to stress about.  There are far more serious troubles around today than yet another Saint who goes to gamble.

Personally I'd advise against it, but I'd advise against MANY things which are prevalent among the Saints today.  In general, as I mentioned above in a lengthier post, a LOT of the things we SHOULD be doing we don't.  I see R-rated movies discussed as well as less inspiring things in many instances as common place and acceptable here.  I find this true with some other items we have been warned against doing and have the advice of the church not to do.  I even see some talk about "acceptable" forms of gambling (under the guise of investment, which is what I think the OP's point was in their attempted excuse) on these forums at times. 

I am no better than the OP or anyone else, and as I pointed out, I also have my own vices.  I really enjoy playing boardgames, but if we take the advice of past apostles and prophets...this is actually a waste of time (as many other things we do).  Does that mean I'm going to be in danger of being an apostate over it?  I'd say probably not.

If we have an addiction, that is a serious thing and can lead to very terrible things in our lives.  It can lead to neglect and other items that ARE serious infractions in the Church.  However, this thread thus far has not been about addiction (though I will note, I WAS the one that pointed this out specifically along with several other reasons in my lengthy post above, though you did link to the article).  This thread was about gambling and comparing it to other things (some of which I'd also technically include in the same lines as gambling, but others do not.  AS I see many of the comparisons the same as gambling, the excuse the OP made really didn't hold much water to me).

Sometimes things only become a big deal if we make them a big deal.

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18 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm going to disagree with the majority here and say it's not actually against the Gospel to Gamble.  The church itself is not strictly against gambling such as saying it is a commandment (by which I mean commandments such as no coffee, tobacco, or alcohol, no stealing, no killing, etc) though it is against games of chance as an organization speaking in general..

 

I believe that just because something isn't a commandment doesn't mean it isn't against the gospel.  In the gospel we find many lessons that are key to our salvation.  

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