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MrShorty

Kwaku at Payson Bible Church debate

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Heard this announced on the radio, then saw the ad on Facebook, so I thought I would post it here -- just in case anyone is interested. It appears that Kwaku from the Saints Unscripted youtube show is going to Payson Bible Church to discuss/debate who is God Friday evening. They claim they will live stream it. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it -- not sure how any of you would feel about it, but however we feel about it doesn't matter.

I couldn't find a better event announcement than the one on PBC's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/1421362644679415/

 

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Thank you for posting this. I dont have fb so I went to Youtube and searched Kwaku and found him on the "saints unscripted" channel. I have three things I want to share.

1. Two weeks ago I found a vlog on utube of a young 45 yr old man that left the JW religion after 25 yrs born and raised. Some of the things that really interests me is that he married at 18, divorced after 12 yrs of marriage, has a 25yr old daughter, lived in his car for 2 yrs, is an entrepreneur, was shunned by his parents and JW friends after leaving the religion. He shares all of his life stories unfiltered and holds nothing back, I found a lot of gems in his videos that give me courage and strength. Im obsessed with him because he is relatable. Other channels I follow religiously is Joe Rogan, ESPN (1st take, skip/shannon), NBA, NFL to name my favorites. 

One channel I do not follow and is pretty boring to me is the churchs channel (T.C.ofJ.C.ofL.D.S.) I try to visit it maybe once a month especially when new videos come out but it seems so scripted and monotonous. I was thinking just yesterday if it was bad of me to think like that of our churchs utube channel but then I decided to look at how many subscribers it had and it shows 1.03 million out of 16 million members worldwide. Only 6.5% of our members are subscribed to the channel. I looked at a video posted 6 days ago "Joseph Smiths first vision" and it only had 17k views. That's a mere 1.7% of views from its own subscribers. Lets go back a month to find a video of president Nelson, that only has 54k views, 5%. Im not the only one that finds the content boring.

In contrast I looked at a utube channel that my kids frequent. Norris nuts, an australian family with 3 young kids, they have 3.4m subs. Their most recent video posted two days ago and already has 2m views, thats a 64% viewing rate. How is it that a random family in australia with no talent whatsoever is more interesting than the prophet and only true church of the world? 

2. So tonight I was sitting on the couch after dinner thinking how Im going to get an fhe/spiritual lesson going with my kids. I have been working nights the past week so tonight was the first opportunity in a long time (last fhe was 3 weeks ago). Usually when I mention fhe the kids run away or suddenly "need to shower/go to bed", they are some rebellious kids I tell ya! Being a little discouraged I decided not to mention anything of a fhe lesson and just surf on my phone with my earphones on. I came to thirdhour and saw your post Mrshorty and thats when I looked up kwaku on utube. Keep in mind that my kids dont know what im watching or listening to on my phone.

I found the saints unscripted channel and was blown away that these young 20 something year olds were addressing mormon topics in a hip and fun way. I quickly subscribed after watching one video and then decided to watch another, considering that halloween was just a week ago I watched "Do Mormons believe in Ghosts?" which was only 6 minutes. After that I turned off my phone and then put my attention on the family and just hung out. About 10 minutes later my 13yr old daughter sitting in the corner randomly said out loud "I wonder if ghosts read people's minds", she was thinking this because her grandma passed away 5 months ago and was wondering if her grandma was reading her mind. My eyes widened as I saw an opportunity to talk religion by showing her the video "Do Mormons believe in Ghosts?", which would answer her question from a mormon stand point. I chickened out and decided not to mention the video. Then my 10yr old daughter yells out to the 13yr old "who you gonna call! Ghost busters!!". OMG, the video has clips from the Ghost busters movie. I knew this was a sign and God's hand in helping me get a religious lesson in tonight.

So I called my 13yr old daughter to my side and told her I have an answer, put the headphones on her and played the video on my phone. She loved it, absorbed all the info and was entertained. Out of curiosity my 10 yr old asked what are you watching? I explained to her its about mormons beliefs about spirits, put the head phones on and then showed it to her. That was 2 of my 3 kids that got a religious message for the night, my 16 yr old had just gotten out of the shower and had no idea what we did, I had no intention of showing her the video so we carried on. About 15 mins later as my 16yr old was on the computer browsing pinterest something caught her attention and she said out loud "I want to see a psychic!", I smiled and invited her over to me. The video also addressed wigi boards, seance/psychics. Unbelievable!

3. Thank you Mr Shorty!

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11 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Heard this announced on the radio, then saw the ad on Facebook, so I thought I would post it here -- just in case anyone is interested. It appears that Kwaku from the Saints Unscripted youtube show is going to Payson Bible Church to discuss/debate who is God Friday evening. They claim they will live stream it. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it -- not sure how any of you would feel about it, but however we feel about it doesn't matter.

I couldn't find a better event announcement than the one on PBC's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/1421362644679415/

 

I’ve seen Kwaku debate in the past and it isn’t anything to write home about.

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4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I found the saints unscripted channel and was blown away that these young 20 something year olds were addressing mormon topics in a hip and fun way. I quickly subscribed after watching one video and then decided to watch another, considering that halloween was just a week ago I watched "Do Mormons believe in Ghosts?" which was only 6 minutes. After that I turned off my phone and then put my attention on the family and just hung out. About 10 minutes later my 13yr old daughter sitting in the corner randomly said out loud "I wonder if ghosts read people's minds", she was thinking this because her grandma passed away 5 months ago and was wondering if her grandma was reading her mind. My eyes widened as I saw an opportunity to talk religion by showing her the video "Do Mormons believe in Ghosts?", which would answer her question from a mormon stand point. I chickened out and decided not to mention the video. Then my 10yr old daughter yells out to the 13yr old "who you gonna call! Ghost busters!!". OMG, the video has clips from the Ghost busters movie. I knew this was a sign and God's hand in helping me get a religious lesson in tonight.

So I called my 13yr old daughter to my side and told her I have an answer, put the headphones on her and played the video on my phone. She loved it, absorbed all the info and was entertained. Out of curiosity my 10 yr old asked what are you watching? I explained to her its about mormons beliefs about spirits, put the head phones on and then showed it to her. That was 2 of my 3 kids that got a religious message for the night, my 16 yr old had just gotten out of the shower and had no idea what we did, I had no intention of showing her the video so we carried on. About 15 mins later as my 16yr old was on the computer browsing pinterest something caught her attention and she said out loud "I want to see a psychic!", I smiled and invited her over to me. The video also addressed wigi boards, seance/psychics. Unbelievable!

This is great! I'm David Snell (the guy whose face you were looking at in that Saints Unscripted video about ghosts). So glad that video was there for you when you needed it!

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12 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I'm not quite sure how I feel about it -- not sure how any of you would feel about it, but however we feel about it doesn't matter.

It always turns me off when you put God and debate on the same statement.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

It always turns me off when you put God and debate on the same statement.

Amen. The notion, to me, minimizes the quest for truth into a "winner/loser" scenario where the winner is decided by who has the best talking points, can think on his/her feet the fastest, whose [human] logic is deemed best, etc. Couple that with the topic "Who is God", which is a topic that I think most of us will agree is difficult at best to really understand with our mortal understanding let alone the ability to express it in a logically coherent manner (or maybe it is just me that has trouble), and a standard debate just does not feel like the right format for discussing and discovering God.

Part of me would like to hope that it can become something more like a discussion/discovery of similarities and differences (like Robinson and Blomberg's book How Wide the Divide) rather than a need to press for a winner/loser debate. I guess I am not optimistic that it becomes that.

Edited by MrShorty

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11 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Part of me would like to hope that it can become something more like a discussion/discovery of similarities and differences (like Robinson and Blomberg's book How Wide the Divide) rather than a need to press for a winner/loser debate. I guess I am not optimistic that it becomes that.

One problem with a Latter-day Saint debating unique beliefs from the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is that these beliefs come from modern revelation. I don't expect anyone who doesn't accept the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price as scripture to hold the same beliefs I do. At best, I can hope they can be intellectually honest enough to see that my theology is self-consistent, and that biblical texts do not (usually) prevent such an interpretation.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

I’ve seen Kwaku debate in the past and it isn’t anything to write home about.

Its not about his debating skills, its about who he relates to. A young mormon. 

My 16yr old stopped going to church, youth activities, devotionals, service projects because she finds it boring but she will climb a mountain to attend a church dance.

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I hope this debate is filled with intellectual courtesy. What's the old saying, goes something like, “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

I don't mind these types of debates, as long as they can maintain intellectual courtesy.

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29 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I hope this debate is filled with intellectual courtesy. What's the old saying, goes something like, “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

I don't mind these types of debates, as long as they can maintain intellectual courtesy.

I agree. When debates are done well and both sides are well informed, they provide a fascinating breakdown of where the core disagreements lie. 

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36 minutes ago, Junior said:

Am I the only one who finds him absolutely intolerable 

I think intolerable is a little strong, but he is my least favorite of the group. In some of the more “controversial” topics, he tends to take the “philosophies of men mingled with scripture” approach. The modesty episode comes to mind.

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1 hour ago, Junior said:

Am I the only one who finds him absolutely intolerable 

Anyone in the public eye leaves themselves open to critique from onlookers. Intolerable to some may be outstanding to others.
No matter what side you are on, I give him and the others a huge amount of respect for providing gospel positive content and trying to build up the kingdom of God in a world that consistently pushes the negative.

If their content or personalities are intolerable, heck, feel free to produce something even better. Maybe you have? If so, please provide a link, I'd be happy to share your faith promoting content with my family.

Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin - The Virtue of Kindness

Quote

One way you can measure your value in the kingdom of God is to ask, “How well am I doing in helping others reach their potential? Do I support others in the Church, or do I criticize them?” If you are criticizing others, you are weakening the Church. If you are building others, you are building the kingdom of God. As Heavenly Father is kind, we also should be kind to others.


 

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I've tried to listen to some of it, and it has been as cringeworthy as I expected. They have adopted a standard debate format. Jeremy clearly has the advantage of 2000 years of rigorous Christian theology  behind him and Kweku is disadvantaged by a theology that has much less time and a certain disdain for rigorous philosophy/theology. Jeremy, as a good "sola scriptura" Christian leans heavily on Biblical authority (or, at least, his mainstream interpretation of the Bible).

I think I've had as much as I can take. I may pick it back up if they leave the recording up, but I don't know. I still wish we had a better model for dialoguing about our differences that was less adversarial.

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7 hours ago, Anddenex said:

 I don't mind these types of debates, as long as they can maintain intellectual courtesy.

It's filled with intellectual courtesy, until my side loses. Than the other person is dishonest and unfair. I was even on the debate team in high school-we used to make jokes like that all time. 

Seriously, I've yet to meet someone in a debate who says "Wow, the other guy changed my mind. I lost, he was right." 

Edited by MormonGator

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I love seeing Kwaku so active in the public eye, he has somehow grabbed the attention of the Protestant world. But in every debate, he finds himself on the defensive almost the entire time. I hopped in for a few seconds and he was just getting steam rolled. I feel has become somewhat of a go-to punching bags for Protestants to show the world that we are false.

If I were in his shoes, my go to phrase should be “I don’t know” and resort back to basic principles that unite us and seperate us. Focus on the Book of Mormon and modern day revelation. He is NO match for the biblical “scholars” he throws himself in front of.

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I may have posted this before, but this was one of the best (non)"debates" I have seen. Every debate a Latter-day Saint engages in should mimic the approach Brad Wilcox has.

 

Edited by Fether

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

I may have posted this before, but this was one of the best "debates" I have seen. Every debate a Latter-day Saint engages in should mimic the approach Brad Wilcox has.

I watched the entire "discussion", it was excellent. Thanks for sharing it @Fether

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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's filled with intellectual courtesy, until my side loses. Than the other person is dishonest and unfair.

The emphasized portion isn't intellectual courtesy. If a person is concerned with winning or losing, fair or unfair, then it isn't intellectual courtesy, and would not have been filled with intellectual courtesy to begin with.

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Seriously, I've yet to meet someone in a debate who says "Wow, the other guy changed my mind. I lost, he was right." 

We have had this discussion before. I have seen this multiple times. Our experiences are different.

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7 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I left after 35 mins.

Dang! I turned it on, within 3 seconds I couldn’t take it, rewound to an earlier point, same cringeworthy dialogue, jumped to a different section and couldn’t take it. All in all I was on for perhaps 20 seconds.

Google “Kwaku el Mormon debate” on Toutube and you can find a few more similar debates. The ones that I glanced through all seemed to be the same as this one.

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12 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Seriously, I've yet to meet someone in a debate who says "Wow, the other guy changed my mind. I lost, he was right." 

I try to put down my own pride during such arguements and stay true to my conscience. If someone makes a good point about something that changes my mind, I force myself to admit it. I find the personality I develop in doing this is far more favorable than any personality I may have in dying on the hill of a bad idea/view.

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9 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Any and all debate/arguments over religion have become pointless in the internet age, both Kwaku and Jeremy did a great job but when your intent is to prove the other wrong there is no room for the holy ghost to manifest. I left after 35 mins.

(N.B.: In the following post, "right" and "left" are devoid of any political meaning. I needed opposite sides of a continuum, and both top/bottom and front/back seemed inherently biased, since top and front are generally considered "better" than bottom and back, respectively. The same might be true of right/left, but it's the best I could come up with.)

Extreme right: "Logical coherence trumps all. All argumentation must conform to a logical format, and all arguments are subject to strict logical deconstruction. The logic shall be based on ideas that must be evidentiary and very strictly positivist—that is, only externally provable things, observable by all, shall be allowed."

Result: All spiritually and religiously based observations or additions are sneered at and summarily dismissed. We are left solely to ourselves and our own prideful reasoning. Foundational truths are abandoned, society as a whole regresses, and any progress proceeds at a snail's pace, if it proceeds at all. Everyone is worse off.

Extreme left: "Personal experience trumps all. So-called 'rational argumentation' is just bullying by another name. YOUR truth is not MY truth; all such things are relative. We have to allow space for the Spirit to act individually—which means that it's no fair making any sort of ground rules at all. Anything goes. Anyone who says differently is a narrow-minded bigot, and we will persecute him by any means possible, societal, legal, and personal."

Result: Chaos. Idiocy masquerades as reason. Nothing is false, and therefore nothing is really true. Foundational truths are gleefully abandoned, society as a whole regresses, and no progress is possible. Everyone is worse off.

Each extreme appeals to certain personality types. Both extremes are equally foolish and equally damning.

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