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Are We Overly Compelled by Church Culture and Human Tendencies to Say I Know This Church is True?

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49 minutes ago, Mores said:

Yes, there is actually an agent of the Church standing beside me as I type compelling me to use the word "know" rather than "believe" or other weaker word.  This is known as "the stick".

OTOH, "the carrot" is that I get $1000 for everyone who likes that post.

 

It's true! AOL and Microsoft have teamed up with 3H and will give everyone who likes Mores post $1000 as a way of Beta testing the Internet!!! You don't even need the email that got fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd:fwd: to me to benefit from it. Just click "like".

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I do not have any fondness when someone proclaims that they know the church is true.  To me it is just virtue signalling.. "Hey, look at me..  I am good."

I have know quite a few members that have proclaimed that and then later stop coming to church.  Well if you knew it, why did you leave?

Furthermore, I think if you really "knew it", then you would never commit sin any more.  Just like I know sticking my hand in the fire is going to burn me so I don't do it.  But those who proclaim they know the church is true pretty much all behave badly from time to time and often don't think anything of it.

I teach elder quorum and I find lessons go so much better when I can get people to testify.  Not proclaim that the know the church is true.  I am not interested in that. I am interested in their experiences that led them to their belief in Christ.

I can't say that I have never said "I know the church is true"  But I can say it has been a long time.  I much rather share the the feelings that I feel when reading scriptures, helping each other, following Christ's teachings and testify how my life has changed for the better.  Let people know you are perfect, but you are improving..  that they have the same power to improve.

Do I know the church is true?  Well let me tell you a story..  And then you can decide for yourself if I know it is true..

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26 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Furthermore, I think if you really "knew it", then you would never commit sin any more.

Nonsense.  I know beyond any doubt whatsoever that potato chips are bad for my health.  I still eat them.  The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.  (Potato chips are one example in a bazillion where people fall short of acting in harmony with what they know.)

27 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Just like I know sticking my hand in the fire is going to burn me so I don't do it.

You don't avoid it because you know; you avoid it because it hurts.  If I got third degree burns every time I ate a potato chip, I wouldn't have finished the first one.

28 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I do not have any fondness when someone proclaims that they know the church is true.  To me it is just virtue signalling.. "Hey, look at me..  I am good."

And you know what's in their heads and hearts, so it's your right to judge, huh?  You have no idea what's in another person's head or heart, what they know or don't know, how they know it, or how hard or easy it is for them to act in harmony with what they know.  Try a bit of charity and let them choose their own words and stop accusing them of lying (which is basically what your post did).  Some may be liars, some may be using the word differently from how you would use it, but for all you know, some of them are telling the truth.

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7 minutes ago, zil said:

Nonsense.  I know beyond any doubt whatsoever that potato chips are bad for my health.  I still eat them.  The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.  (Potato chips are one example in a bazillion where people fall short of acting in harmony with what they know.)

You don't avoid it because you know; you avoid it because it hurts.  If I got third degree burns every time I ate a potato chip, I wouldn't have finished the first one.

And you know what's in their heads and hearts, so it's your right to judge, huh?  You have no idea what's in another person's head or heart, what they know or don't know, how they know it, or how hard or easy it is for them to act in harmony with what they know.  Try a bit of charity and let them choose their own words and stop accusing them of lying (which is basically what your post did).  Some may be liars, some may be using the word differently from how you would use it, but for all you know, some of them are telling the truth.

Strange, I don't know that potato chips are bad for my health.  perhaps too many of them are.

That last bit surely sounds like you are judging me and telling me not to judge others. Yes, judging others is not good to do, but I still do it and as far as I can tell most everyone does as well.

As for me not believing people when they say they know the church is true, whether they in fact do know it or not has very little meaning to me when I hear it.  It has been watered down to the point that I am not interested in hearing it.  Like I said, I much rather hear why one believes and not that they believe.

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1 hour ago, zil said:

Nonsense.  I know beyond any doubt whatsoever that potato chips are bad for my health.  I still eat them.

Is it the chips? or is it the quantity?

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1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

Furthermore, I think if you really "knew it", then you would never commit sin any more.

Really?  Like how Lucifer lived in the very presence of God and rebelled against Him?  Knowledge is only one part of the path to perfection.

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1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

That last bit surely sounds like you are judging me and telling me not to judge others. Yes, judging others is not good to do, but I still do it and as far as I can tell most everyone does as well.

Actually, I pointed out the demonstrable fact that you called those who use the phrase self-righteous liars.  Then I pointed out that you don't know what's in another person's head1, and therefore cannot accurately make that claim.

1Unless you're claiming God revealed to you what's in everyone else's head, or claiming to have telepathy and to have read everyone else's mind.

If you don't like the phrase, grand, say you don't like the phrase.  But you didn't stop there, you went on to accuse those who use it of being self-righteous liars:

2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I do not have any fondness when someone proclaims that they know the church is true.  To me it is just virtue signalling.. "Hey, look at me..  I am good."

I have know quite a few members that have proclaimed that and then later stop coming to church.  Well if you knew it, why did you leave?

Furthermore, I think if you really "knew it", then you would never commit sin any more.  Just like I know sticking my hand in the fire is going to burn me so I don't do it.  But those who proclaim they know the church is true pretty much all behave badly from time to time and often don't think anything of it.

Yes, your first sentence is about the incidence of using the phrase, not the people, but the rest is accusing the people who use it.

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I admit I don’t often get up and share my testimony in Fast and Testimony Meeting. But, when I do share my testimony whether in Fast and Testimony Meeting, or in a Primary lesson, Sunday School lesson, or Relief Society lesson, I feel the responsibility that is on my shoulders. My responsibility is to teach or share with the Spirit, and to help my fellow members and/or investigators feel that Spirit. Because I do have a testimony and have felt the Spirit testify to me of the truthfulness of the gospel I feel I will have let my Savior down if I don’t testify. So, I will use the terminology “I know”, or “I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that ...”. And then I try to clarify why I know. I feel because I do know, I need to help those who are struggling. I want them to learn for themselves and know without a doubt so that when trials come their way, they have an anchor to hold on to. If they don’t know for themselves, when a a pivotal point comes in their life I hope they might remember me, Sister Classylady, and remember she knew! I hope they can hold onto my knowledge until they get their own. This is a responsibility I feel very strongly about. 

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10 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Yes, judging others is not good to do, but I still do it and as far as I can tell most everyone does as well.

So what you are saying is that you don't really "know" yet that judging other is not good, which is why you still do it. I understand completely.

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14 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I do not have any fondness when someone proclaims that they know the church is true.  To me it is just virtue signalling.. "Hey, look at me..  I am good."

[...]

I can't say that I have never said "I know the church is true"  But I can say it has been a long time.

Hey, look at you! You are good!

😄

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13 hours ago, person0 said:

Is it the chips? or is it the quantity?

Would you feel better if I said "not good for you" rather than "bad for you".  IMO, it's the same thing.  Look at the list of ingredients - by the time you add all that grease and salt (and sugar in some flavors) and carbs, I'm pretty sure it's just bad for you.  Your body's ability to deal with the bad without an instant coronary doesn't change that the one chip was bad.

And anyway....

lays-poker-ad-e1440708186898.jpg

lays-abe-ad-e1440708147531.jpg

690e53f7ed4106482fbc05fae0acb5b9.jpg

etc.

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What is it exactly you guys are wanting then, if "I know the church is true" isn't cutting it? Should we wheel in adjudicators to every F&T meeting and award testimony diplomas?

I for one think it's quite possible to say those simple phrases genuinely and honestly, because I myself have used them, and I have felt resonance with others when they have. Some of my talks have been long winded with many layers of complexity. Other of my talks sound straight out of the annual primary program. Do you know why this is? Because, like most people, I try my best to bear testimony in the Spirit of Prophecy. For that reason, if you are consistently having a problem with people's testimonies, may I suggest that the problem might actually be between you and God?

Edited by Moonbeast32
Post sounded self centered. Made it less so.

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55 minutes ago, zil said:

Would you feel better if I said "not good for you" rather than "bad for you".  IMO, it's the same thing.  Look at the list of ingredients - by the time you add all that grease and salt (and sugar in some flavors) and carbs, I'm pretty sure it's just bad for you.  Your body's ability to deal with the bad without an instant coronary doesn't change that the one chip was bad.

I tend to think of healthy/unhealthy in terms of habits rather than specific food items.  I really don't see anything particularly unhealthy about traditional potato chips; however, I would certainly agree that eating large quantities would be an unhealthy habit.  Even for some of the more complex flavors, like Barbecue, if anything, the only specifically 'unhealthy' thing might be the caramel color; everything else are likely to be found within many so called 'healthy' meals.
image.png.473314d4ed5536d91b92894217b5a208.pngImage result for lays potato chips ingredients

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

I tend to think of healthy/unhealthy in terms of habits rather than specific food items.  I really don't see anything particularly unhealthy about traditional potato chips; however, I would certainly agree that eating large quantities would be an unhealthy habit.  Even for some of the more complex flavors, like Barbecue, if anything, the only specifically 'unhealthy' thing might be the caramel color; everything else are likely to be found within many so called 'healthy' meals.
image.png.473314d4ed5536d91b92894217b5a208.pngImage result for lays potato chips ingredients

Huh. Those don't contain lead anymore either.

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What immediately sprang (sprung?)  to mind reading the original post is that I agree with the OP in some respects because toddlers are taught from day 1 to repeat this phrase over and over... and over.  They can barely speak, but they get up in front, with Mom right next to them whispering in their ear and they are made to say the exact same thing over and over again... child after child,  repeating testimony...  "I know Josef smif was a pahfit. I know da chooch is twoo. I wuv my famwee. Injesuschwistamen."    Parents are compelled to make their babies get up and try to utter it because other parents do (peer pressure of sorts).  The children do this over and over and then they are 4 and 5 and can say it without help and love getting up in front of people to repeat it for the attention.  By the time you are 6 or 7 it's just something they say.   Adults - similar.  Said, uttered, without thought time after time, it loses it's meaning.  It's just a phrase you are compelled to repeat or say all the time because it's something you've gotten so used to doing.   The second part;  compelled to do it because 'everyone else is' so you feel spotlighted if you don't.....

 

(Just typing out my immediate brainstorming thoughts as I read the original post... LOL.  Pretty sure I started rambling there as I was sorting out some thoughts!)  :)

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On 1/7/2020 at 1:21 PM, mordorbund said:

Huh. Those don't contain lead anymore either.

Lay's Potato Chips **ASBESTOS-FREE!**

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2 hours ago, zil said:

Is there such a thing as underly compelled?

When I think I'm clear in my communication about the chores my kids need to do, and 2 minutes later they are playing outside, or reading books.  They were underly compelled. :D 

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22 minutes ago, dprh said:

When I think I'm clear in my communication about the chores my kids need to do, and 2 minutes later they are playing outside, or reading books.  They were underly compelled. :D 

True, I guess, but that never happens in real life. That only happens in dystopian novels/movies/etc.

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