Did Face to Face answer questions?

[Grunt]

5 hours ago, carlimac said:

🙄 My point is that Personal Progress as well as the new program are simply tools members can use if they so choose to draw closer to the Savior. Some kids don’t need this tool. It doesn’t fit their style. But they are just as Christ-like, giving, accomplished and spiritually in tune as others who fretted and fussed and got nagged at to finish all these rather arbitrary assignments. Perhaps more so because they are doing the right thing for the right reason instead of doing it to get an adult off their back or out of peer pressure. 

For some, Personal Progress is the exact right method to learn what they need to learn. For others it misses the mark because they don’t respond well to the checklist approach to living the Gospel. Likewise many young men don’t get their Eagle because it doesn’t resonate with them. But they are excellent young men.

I would bet my life that there will be many numbers of souls in the Celestial Kingdom who never completed their Young Woman medallion or got their Eagle who were on the Earth when the Church subscribed to these programs. 

I'm not sure I agree with this.  "Julie" may not need the programs, but maybe the Lord inspires these programs because someone else in the program may need "Julie".  Charity and service aren't just for projects.

[carlimac]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

As far as whether or not you care about the topic:  obviously I have no particularized knowledge there.  All I know is that when I suggested the Church was heavily subsidizing girls camp, you found that sufficiently problematic to pipe up with the statements that a) the girls had to pay for camp (an amount that turns out to be 1/4 what the boys were paying), and b) the Church camps probably aren’t THAT expensive.

Not problematic. Just a bit far fetched.

[Guest Mores]

21 hours ago, carlimac said:

For some, Personal Progress is the exact right method to learn what they need to learn. For others it misses the mark because they don’t respond well to the checklist approach to living the Gospel. Likewise many young men don’t get their Eagle because it doesn’t resonate with them. But they are excellent young men.

I find this type of statement problematic in the real world.  Many variants have been said.  But they all miss the reality in favor of an idealized philosophical world in people's heads.

Checklists are EXTREMELY helpful to the mind and heart of man.  Let me be clear.  Simply writing things down and checking them off is completely useless.  But writing things down encourages a tremendous amount of focus and improves the memory.  Hence -- the scriptures, journals, church records...  This has the effect of increasing productivity.

21 hours ago, carlimac said:

I would bet my life that there will be many numbers of souls in the Celestial Kingdom who never completed their Young Woman medallion or got their Eagle who were on the Earth when the Church subscribed to these programs. 

False/Misleading condition.  How many people live in areas of the world where such are not even available?  How many were late converts or baptized for the dead?  How many live in branches or small wards where the program isn't effectively applied? Others didn't have the physical awards, but still did equivalent goals and accomplishments.

Easy to satisfy your condition when you state it in such absolutes. -- Yes, even with your conditional about "when the Church subscribed..."  Point being, many people simply couldn't through no fault of their own.

If we were to modify that for universality, it may sound like:

Quote

I would bet my life that there will be many numbers of souls in the Celestial Kingdom who never worked on those types of goals with mentors who helped them along the way.

Would you bet your life on that?  If you think I'm being unfair, how would you alter your statement to be universal?

[MarginOfError]

Also to defend checklists, the whole premise of this new program is for youth to set their goals and then for leaders to help them write their own checklists. The major change is that there is no longer a baseline for how much a person should have accomplished to "complete the program."

This has advantages and disadvantages. The primary advantage is that, when applied correctly, youth will learn how to set goal, and break them down to achieve them. And the goals and process to do so are completely customizable to the individual.

The primary disadvantage is that there is no way to look at someone who has completed the Church's youth program and have any idea what they know or have experienced. It gives up generalizability for individuality. We've given up more of the former than I would like, but whatever.

[anatess2]

On 11/20/2019 at 9:01 AM, carlimac said:

They probably didn’t know about them. Actually only a very small percentage of wards and stakes have access to those camps. It’s mostly a western US advantage. Here in the east and the rest of the world we go through the process every year of having to find a place for the girls to have camp. It has cost my girls at least $100 out of pocket each to attend. 

Our YW go to this Church-owned facility in Orlando, Florida.  Great place.  Depending on how the Fundraising goes, our YW either pay zero or upwards to $100 for everything they need for Girl's Camping in that facility.  The YM usually pay around $100 for summer activity because the joint Fundraiser ALWAYS cover Girl's Camp first because we've never skipped Girl's Camp every year (I don't even think we can!). 

The Priest's non-Scout activity sometimes gets covered (they do things like take a 6-day trip to Washington DC, or tour Nauvoo) because they can design the activity towards the amount of money they got left from the fundraiser and the parents' contributions (which we limit to $100 per youth - which gets tricky for one of our ward members with 3 young men so the bishop figures out something to help them).  If there's still money left over from the Fundraiser, then the Deacons and Teachers get their Summer Scout Camp covered.  Most of the time, the Deacons and Teachers don't go to a full week Scout Camp because of fund limitations (it will cost more than $100 per scout).  They usually just do a 3-day one at the BSA facility.  When we had the karaoke fundraising the youth raised a record amount of money so the Deacons/Teachers went to a week-long scout camp in North Carolina.  We still paid in $100 for each scout in addition to the fundraiser.  That scout camp led to all the scouts that attended earning their Eagle before they graduated out of Teachers Quorum as they were able to knock down so many merit badges in one week.  In any case, we usually spend $100 for our boys every year - it's a very rare event when we don't. 

Last summer, our fundraiser was terrible, so we spent $150 each for both our boys for a DC trip and we had to have volunteers from the ward offer their car and gas for the trip as the funds were not enough to rent a bus and the boys really wanted to do the activity (which we try to do every 4 years).  It became a testimony-affirming trip for me as I volunteered my car, gas, and driving services and events occurred during the 6-day trip - like my impromptu visit to the Philippine Embassy in DC - that led to my son being fully prepared for his mission call.  It was super wild.

Edited November 21, 2019 by anatess2

[anatess2]

23 hours ago, carlimac said:

But what kind of birthday party costs $600? 🤔

The Filipino kind where people just show up without needing an invite... we usually have around 100 people and I usually spring for a water slide bouncy house and I spring $3 for an ironed-on bday t-shirt for giveaways to the kiddos - I make 40 t-shirts every bday.  So the kiddos get all good and wet and then they dry up and then change into the t-shirts and we all sing happy birthday around the cake and take a picture.  It's awesome.  Hah hah.

So my mother-in-law has been trying to find all the shirts for every year so she can make some kind of quilt for my son's 18th birthday... she couldn't find all the shirts so she ended up ditching the project.  But it would've been the craziest awesome thing to do because... and now I'm gonna cry again... for the first time in my son's life, he will not be spending his bday with us next year as he will be on his mission.  Waaaaaaa!

[carlimac]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The Filipino kind where people just show up without needing an invite... we usually have around 100 people and I usually spring for a water slide bouncy house and I spring $3 for an ironed-on bday t-shirt for giveaways to the kiddos - I make 40 t-shirts every bday.  So the kiddos get all good and wet and then they dry up and then change into the t-shirts and we all sing happy birthday around the cake and take a picture.  It's awesome.  Hah hah.

So my mother-in-law has been trying to find all the shirts for every year so she can make some kind of quilt for my son's 18th birthday... she couldn't find all the shirts so she ended up ditching the project.  But it would've been the craziest awesome thing to do because... and now I'm gonna cry again... for the first time in my son's life, he will not be spending his bday with us next year as he will be on his mission.  Waaaaaaa!

Can’t love this enough!!

[carlimac]

5 hours ago, Mores said:

 

Had an answer half done but it disappeared when I stuck my phone in my pocket to pick up my baby granddaughter. I’m in the hospital with her ( she’s fine) and her mom  (she’s not fine- post- partum toxemia). My daughter is on magnesium sulfate IV and can’t do anything but feed her 8 day old baby. REAL WORLD experience going on here. 😳

5 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Also to defend checklists, the whole premise of this new program is for youth to set their goals and then for leaders to help them write their own checklists. The major change is that there is no longer a baseline for how much a person should have accomplished to "complete the program."

This has advantages and disadvantages. The primary advantage is that, when applied correctly, youth will learn how to set goal, and break them down to achieve them. And the goals and process to do so are completely customizable to the individual.

The primary disadvantage is that there is no way to look at someone who has completed the Church's youth program and have any idea what they know or have experienced. It gives up generalizability for individuality. We've given up more of the former than I would like, but whatever.

I hate to say it but I bet lots of Young Women complete the program but don’t remember what they learned, especially if done under pressure just to check it off the list. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by carlimac

[MarginOfError]

3 minutes ago, carlimac said:

 

I hate to say it but I bet lots of Young Women complete the program but don’t remember what they learned, especially if done under pressure just to check it off the list. 

Of course they don't remember what they learned.  Or much of it anyway.  They're still teenagers. I've never looked at someone who earned an Eagle Scout rank and thought, "I bet they know their knots." But I do think, "I know they learned those knots once."  Additionally, I can reasonably think that if they have an Eagle award, they likely have a basic understanding of knife and gun safety, even if they don't know the specifics of running a safe range. Likewise, I can look at Young Women who have earned the Personal Progress medallion, and I can tell you which scriptures they've studied, and have a reasonable understanding of what kind of time they've put into it and what kind of activities they've performed. They might not be able to quote scriptures or give dissertations about what they've learned, but I understand what foundation I have to build on.

With the new program, I won't be able to make generalizations like that about youth who complete the program.  That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a trade off.  But the problem is almost never the checklist. The problem is usually the leaders that permit checklists to be completed without challenging people with real growth.

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

Of course they don't remember what they learned.  Or much of it anyway.  They're still teenagers. I've never looked at someone who earned an Eagle Scout rank and thought, "I bet they know their knots." But I do think, "I know they learned those knots once."  Additionally, I can reasonably think that if they have an Eagle award, they likely have a basic understanding of knife and gun safety, even if they don't know the specifics of running a safe range. Likewise, I can look at Young Women who have earned the Personal Progress medallion, and I can tell you which scriptures they've studied, and have a reasonable understanding of what kind of time they've put into it and what kind of activities they've performed. They might not be able to quote scriptures or give dissertations about what they've learned, but I understand what foundation I have to build on.

With the new program, I won't be able to make generalizations like that about youth who complete the program.  That isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a trade off.  But the problem is almost never the checklist. The problem is usually the leaders that permit checklists to be completed without challenging people with real growth.

I’m wondering why you are evaluating these kids in the first place? Are you a bishop?

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

I’m wondering why you are evaluating these kids in the first place? Are you a bishop?

This question doesn't make sense.  If you're in a Primary/Youth Leadership calling (or a parent of a primary kid/youth) you're gonna need to evaluate these kids.  I'll tell you one simple example - I'm a Cub Scouts den leader.  Cubs that sport Bear Badges are expected to have earned their whittling chip and know campfire safety as it is a requirement to earn the badge.  Therefore, during activities, I would expect a Bear cub to be able to handle activities that has to do with pocketknives and campfires.  So, as a Bear den leader, I cannot just give cubs the Bear badge without evaluating that they know these things because it would be VERY VERY DANGEROUS for the Webelos den leader or the Cubmaster when these Bears go out to those activities wearing their Bear badges and end up not knowing these things.  Same goes for the Scoutmaster for the Young Men.  If you earned your 1st class you are expected to know how to swim.  It would be very dangerous for a Scoutmaster to take 1st Class Scouts to earn their Kayaking Merit Badge if the 1st Class Scout did not truly earn his rank.

I would assume Young Women would have something that carries the same/similar responsibilities.  If not... then I wonder how Young Women and their leaders know where they are in their progress to be able to conduct activities to support such progress?

Edited November 21, 2019 by anatess2

[MarginOfError]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:14 PM, carlimac said:

I’m wondering why you are evaluating these kids in the first place? Are you a bishop?

I might need or want to make such generalizations for any number of reasons. Some of them worthwhile, some of them gossipy. Why I am making generalizations is irrelevant to the point. The point is, our youth programs no longer point to any common skill or knowledge set. 

Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily bad. Just saying that it's a trade we made to get more adaptibilty.

[JohnsonJones]

42 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I might need or want to make such generalizations for any number of reasons. Some of them worthwhile, some of them gossipy. Why I am making generalizations is irrelevant to the point. The point is, our youth programs no longer point to any common skill or knowledge set. 

Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily bad. Just saying that it's a trade we made to get more adaptibilty.

Maybe...but I think there is a invaluable skill set it is trying to instill.

The thing that is being pushed behind many of the goal setting is prayerful revelation.  To listen to the Holy Ghost and get revelation and inspiration on what your goals should be.  If one can learn to truly recognize and identify the Holy Ghost they can develop and unshakeable testimony.