What makes you a member?

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Which covenants is he breaking though?

Has he been to the temple?

If we go scripturally, no where does it say if one drinks an alcoholic drink they are going to hell.  It doesn't even say that if one drinks alcohol, coffee, or tea that they can't go to the temple.  Instead it is a matter of policy that the church enforces today.  The Lord drank wine (though I have heard many say it was instead grapejuice and there is a good argument to that matter, but the Bible does say wine).  I would imagine he is NOT going to hell (or we hope not or we all will be there together).

Where does it say we have to go to church every Sunday?  It says to meet often as members, but I don't think it ever specifies that one has to do that via going to Church every Sunday.

Where does it say we must read the scriptures everyday in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price?  90% of the people of the world in the past (actually it's more than that, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt) could not even READ, much less study books of scripture.

Even if you do such things as drink alcohol or smoke, once you've been to the temple, if you do not feel you need to go again, you can be a faithful member for the most part and still disobey the word of wisdom.  You won't be able to pass a temple recommend (which is unfortunate for them, but it is what it is today with our policies), but there is nothing held against them within the church. 

Now, there are other covenants and promises he made which he may be breaking, but that's not what I want to point out here.

Many times people confuse modern traditions and policies as commandments.  Like the Pharisees we put too much emphasis on policies and cultural aspects rather than what the Lord truly tells us to do.

We worry FAR more about others than ourselves and what is pertinent for our OWN salvation. 

Now, this individual you mentioned seems to be very happy and thrilled with the gospel even if they are not keeping all the covenants they have made (perhaps they are doing other things such as breaking the law of chastity, or other such items which would probably not be following the Lord exactly).

Some time ago I had a young man come to talk to me about a new member in the ward.  He had no interest in the Church itself, but did wish to try to persuade others to not be baptized.  He came in confidence and informed me that the young individual that was a new member had broken the law of chastity with him since their baptism.  I had no doubt that he was telling me the truth.  This young man believed that we should excommunicate this new member.  However, I did not punish the new member for this.  I did bring it up and tried to clarify how much the new member understood about the Law of Chastity and counseled with them, but when I considered all the things in relation to this, I felt any Church punishment at this stage for this new member would be detrimental. 

They did not have as good an understanding of the gospel as many others.  In some ways, though they knew it was wrong, they did not realize how much of a sin it may be, especially what they were participating in.  The young man who had visited me had one intention, to drive this new member out of the church by any means possible.  Yes, the new member had been involved with sin, but they were at a different level of understanding with the gospel and the seriousness of certain sins in their life. 

Now this may bring condemnation from some here, but I did nothing towards the new member in regards to church discipline or any other matter except discuss the issue with them privately.  I felt greatly impressed that they were still progressing and learning.

In that same light, many new members become inactive very shortly after their baptism.  In some instances they have a great understanding of the church, but in others they do not.  In some of these instances these new members become older members that have not gone to church in decades and when they did...it was for only one or two Sundays.  However, I find with a few of them that they still have a strong testimony of the gospel.  They read parts of the Book of Mormon and were touched by the Spirit. They may be actively doing the best they can as they understand the gospel. 

Sometimes they have other issues which they have problems with.  I knew an older lady that was committing adultery.  She was inactive.  For whatever reasons she had a difficult time getting a divorce from her husband.  From what I understand he was rather abusive towards her and at one point she had escaped to police protection at a woman's shelter.  In the intervening years she had fallen in love with another individual.  She KNEW what she was doing was not in accordance with the laws of the Lord, the covenants she made in the temple, nor the rules of the Church.  However, she actually still loved the Gospel and the Lord. 

Now, I could have condemned her in this situation or demanded a Church court.  I did not.  She was already inactive and suffering from the consequences of her actions.  She knew others were probably judging her from it and I felt this was also a reason she was not going to church.  Once again, I took no actions in regards to Church discipline.  Instead, I got to know her better and invited her to come back to church. 

As she felt the love and fellowship of the leadership and eventually other sisters in the Relief Society she grew in her own desire to follow the Lord more fully.  She eventually got a full divorce and marriage to the man she was living with.  She returned to full activity in the Church. 

I feel that the Lord inspired the path we took with her as I feel it helped her far more in this instance than if we had decided to simply install Church punishment upon her. 

I see the Church as being a vessel to deliver the gospel.  It is a way to help it's members return to their Heavenly Home.  We are here to save souls, not drown them.  In the above circumstances I did not feel as if Church discipline was the answer.  In both of these one could say that they were quite actively breaking their covenants they had made.  I know some may say I was a bad leader and condemn me for these actions.  However, in both of these I feel we did the right thing under the inspiration of the Spirit.  This is not to say this is the only way things go, I have seen many undergo Church discipline including the unfortunate situations of excommunication.  These too are done with love (though I think many in the latter circumstance will disagree at times) in the hope that such a decision will drive home the seriousness of what they are about and drive them (hopefully) to their knees in repentance and return to the Lord and the Gospel in the Church.  However, there are also times when the situations are catered more towards the individual needs rather than what a strict adherence to law and judgment may decree.

I know another man in a similar situation as the individual you talk about above.  I love this member.  He is wonderful.  He loves everyone.  He is so charitable and friendly.  He has strengths in charity and caring that I can only dream of.  He never has a bad word for anyone and tries to help anyone who is in need if he can...including giving the clothes off his back and needing to buy more.  He is an absolutely wonderful individual in regards to loving his fellowman.

He is also a smoker and drinks heavily.  He is not always at Church.  He acknowledges these difficulties and at times I think he has given up even trying to overcome them and has instead settled down to a life where he has decided to enjoy it while he can. 

However, who is the better man, me or him?  I, with my judgmental attitudes (not always, but at times) and pride, or him with his more temporal problems?  I think he is probably a better person than I am.  I think the Lord loves him dearly and appreciates the great love the man exhibits.

So, I can see how one could love the gospel and still be doing things that are not in accordance with it.  Actually, we ALL do such things. 

This does not mean I will condone someone for drinking, smoking, inactivity, or disobeying the commandments...but that I can understand how one can love the gospel and yet be involved with activities which may not be in synch with the gospel.  I think we ALL have our own pet sins we participate in, some more visible than others, but ones that we need to overcome and work on to be perfected nonetheless.

There is only one perfect man who has ever lived on this Earth, and that is the Lord. 

PS: Sorry for the long reply, but I am trying to explain how one could be of this mindset and still love the gospel and love the Church.  It may have instead just made people think I am a bad judge of character and a bad leader, but hopefully at least one can understand the idea how one may not be keeping all their covenants but still love the gospel.  In fact, come to think of it, except for the Lord, we all are basically in that situation to one degree or another depending on our understanding and advancement in faith and adherence to the commandments.

 

Awesome.  I'm going to Dunks and calling the bishop to quit my calling.  It's going to be nice being able to hunt on Sundays again rather than sitting in Sacrament.

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, Grunt said:

Awesome.  I'm going to Dunks and calling the bishop to quit my calling.  It's going to be nice being able to hunt on Sundays again rather than sitting in Sacrament.

I wouldn't advise you do such, but if you feel that is what is best, that is your decision.  You would not be the first to go hunting on Sunday.

I think it probably would be best if you pray about such first, but at least discussing the item with your bishop is a good first step. 

I think you probably are being sarcastic and joking, but if you are not, I'm not advising you to do as you state above. 

I'd say the better situation for you is to at least do as you feel directed by the Spirit and pray about the decision first. 

In the end though, it is your decision and your choice.  Discussing such matters with the Bishop can be a good start in the situation though.  It sounds (as I said, I think you are being sarcastic and joking, but if you are not) that you at least would be going to the Bishop to inform him or calling him at least, and that hopefully you won't mind if he wishes to discuss it with you in more detail.

[Junior]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I wouldn't advise you do such, but if you feel that is what is best, that is your decision.  You would not be the first to go hunting on Sunday.

I think it probably would be best if you pray about such first, but at least discussing the item with your bishop is a good first step. 

I think you probably are being sarcastic and joking, but if you are not, I'm not advising you to do as you state above. 

I'd say the better situation for you is to at least do as you feel directed by the Spirit and pray about the decision first. 

In the end though, it is your decision and your choice.  Discussing such matters with the Bishop can be a good start in the situation though.  It sounds (as I said, I think you are being sarcastic and joking, but if you are not) that you at least would be going to the Bishop to inform him or calling him at least, and that hopefully you won't mind if he wishes to discuss it with you in more detail.

Bro you are like the coolest dude ever man. 

[Anddenex]

On 11/20/2019 at 5:55 PM, Grunt said:

What makes one a member of the Church?  Is it simply a matter of being baptized then you're a member for life?  Are you still a member if you don't keep your covenants, don't attend Sacrament, and have no intention of doing so?   At what point, if any, are you no longer considered a member of the Church?

To keep it simply, a member is anyone who has been baptized and confirmed (baptism doesn't make you a member, it is confirmation).  Also, notice how many members the Church counts although we know at least half do not practice their faith.

When a person asks for their name to be removed from Church records they are officially no longer on the records of the Church and are no longer considered members.

To be members of the Church of the Firstborn, now that is what we want to be both on record and in heart/action.

[Traveler]

On 11/20/2019 at 5:55 PM, Grunt said:

What makes one a member of the Church?  Is it simply a matter of being baptized then you're a member for life?  Are you still a member if you don't keep your covenants, don't attend Sacrament, and have no intention of doing so?   At what point, if any, are you no longer considered a member of the Church?

I can only answer for myself - My answer is Jesus Christ.  If it was not for him - I would not have anything to do with this or any other church.

 

The Traveler