Ward Boundary Changes


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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Bullcrap... You are saying "OH noes everyone else is moving me around like a pawn and the only way I can get what want is if some one else gives it to me."   That is the mindset of misery and lack of agency. And people need to grow out of it

  Okay @estradling75. I obviously see it very, very differently than you do. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

  Okay @estradling75. I obviously see it very, very differently than you do. 

Here is how I see it.  We have agency.. we can make choices... always.

We can't see the future.  Things change in ways we can not expect.  But the Lord knows all.

We are counciled to seek the Lord in all our actions and choices.  So while we might have our choices appear to blow up in our face... if we are following the council the we are exactly where the Lord wants us to be.

So when it comes to the Church it means either that we are were the Lord would have us be (even if we do not like it)... Or we disobeyed council and trusted to our own wisdom and are paying the price for that.

Neither one of these cases should the "Church" or anyone but ourselves be responsible for fixing.

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We are into the second week of a major boundary realignment. All four of our city wards had their boundaries realigned but no new wards were created. Everyone has known for more than a year that there was going to be some sort of boundary changes, but nobody knew until it was announced what the changes would be. We had a special stake meeting on Sunday evening three weeks ago when it was announced and the meeting attracted about as many people as what we normally get for stake conference. All four bishops were released and new ones called, the old wards came to an end, and new wards, with new names, were announced. The official reason given for the changes was so that there would be a more even distribution of Priesthood throughout the stake. Most people seem to be pretty happy with the changes. Our Stake President and his second counsellor are particularly happy as they had been serving as both Bishops and members of the Stake Presidency since late June. As yet we have no new Elders Quorum President as we lost our previous president through the boundary changes. I guess the Stake Presidency have done a pretty good job with the changes because I haven't heard any negative comments so far. 

I'm getting the impression that boundary changes are not announced at random times because I know that within two weeks of each other, there was another major set of boundary changes in another Australian stake far frome here and the neighbouring District became a Stake at about the same time. 

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If I am in my early 30's and the rest of the ward is 60+ that is going to completely change the social dynamic.  I think that would be very difficult to deal with and I would just attend a different ward.

Just telling someone to up and move because they do not like their ward is unhelpful and frankly, unreasonable.  I have lived in some crap wards and moving is not the solution.  I did move and I bet those are still crap wards.  Sometimes that is how people are and it has nothing to do with you.

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23 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Here is how I see it.  We have agency.. we can make choices... always.

We can't see the future.  Things change in ways we can not expect.  But the Lord knows all.

We are counciled to seek the Lord in all our actions and choices.  So while we might have our choices appear to blow up in our face... if we are following the council the we are exactly where the Lord wants us to be.

So when it comes to the Church it means either that we are were the Lord would have us be (even if we do not like it)... Or we disobeyed council and trusted to our own wisdom and are paying the price for that.

Neither one of these cases should the "Church" or anyone but ourselves be responsible for fixing.

That is assuming that everyone in the church is seeking the Lord's council.  I know many do not. People pay for other people's decisions.  

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Grunt said:

It doesn't make it impossible.  If you are in a ward and nobody will be your friend, even after the years of trying you stated, then the issue is you. (the royal you)

I understand, I use the royal "you" all the time. I don't really disagree, but there are outlier wards where "you" wouldn't be the issue, but "they" would. 

It gets even more complicated when you've had deep, intense friendships for decades, including with people in previous wards and missionaries you've known for years. Once again showing that maybe, just maybe it could be a ward issue. 

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11 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

If I am in my early 30's and the rest of the ward is 60+ that is going to completely change the social dynamic.  I think that would be very difficult to deal with and I would just attend a different ward.

Just telling someone to up and move because they do not like their ward is unhelpful and frankly, unreasonable.  I have lived in some crap wards and moving is not the solution.  I did move and I bet those are still crap wards.  Sometimes that is how people are and it has nothing to do with you.

What made them "crap wards"?

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32 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 

What made them "crap wards"?

 

Primarily the cliques.  If you were not already in the clique, well, you were not in and it did not budge on "membership" of the cliques.  The other big issue I encountered was the ward full of the self righteous members.

I will give my various college/student wards a pass on their behavior as we were all still young and dumb.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

Primarily the cliques.  If you were not already in the clique, well, you were not in and it did not budge on "membership" of the cliques.  The other big issue I encountered was the ward full of the self righteous members.

I will give my various college/student wards a pass on their behavior as we were all still young and dumb.

 

 

Interesting.  I just really find it difficult to believe that every individual in a community refused to admit a new member and every member of a community was self righteous.  In all my days of living, I've never found an organization that consisted of 100% of anything like that.  

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Guest MormonGator

And, it gets even more complicated when fellow ward members & missionaries tell you that they have noticed the exact same thing-that the ward is too cliquey and they've moved on to other options. 

And, it gets even more complicated when your experiences at other wards are incredibly positive, so you weren't ready for it because it's totally unexpected. 

And, it gets even more complicated when members treat you differently because you might lack the blessings they have. 

And, it gets even more complicated when people tell you to just "suck and it and deal with it" and fail to even try to see your point of view. 

But this just what I've been told of course. I have enormous empathy and sympathy for people in that situation.

 

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51 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Interesting.  I just really find it difficult to believe that every individual in a community refused to admit a new member and every member of a community was self righteous.  In all my days of living, I've never found an organization that consisted of 100% of anything like that.  

Oh they weren't 100%, but 80% would be accurate.  The other 20% just were not interested in interacting with anyone.  Probably because of how the other 80% acted.

That's okay, I am an only child, I can be ignored by the cliques and be okay.  

That's okay, I have a lot of fun getting under the skin of the self righteous.  

As a side note, this experience entails three wards in total.  One in California, one in Delaware and one in Utah.  Utah wasn't the self righteous ward, Delaware was.

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8 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The Southern Baptists are dealing with that down here. There are too many churches and not enough people to fill them. What is worse, is that the people who are attending are usually older. 

In my ward this is exactly the case. The average age is 65. 65! 

Sounds like you need to go out and find, teach and baptise some young 'uns. If people are uncomfortable with the demographics of the ward they are in, that is an issue about which they can do something. 

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6 hours ago, dprh said:

I've even seen some families get their records moved to ward they don't live in.  It's not usual, but it's an option.

The time that I've seen this happen most frequently is when a couple divorce and don't want to still attend the same ward together. In these instances, I've never seen a request to attend a ward outside of your boundaries be denied. When they did the boundary realignment in our stake a few weeks ago, as part of the FAQ session of the meeting, a member of the Stake Presidency read out the church policy on being a member of a ward outside your boundaries ( as opposed to simply attending another ward) and apparently the request needs to go to the First Presidency.  

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Hymn 270 - I'll go where you want me to go.
 
It may not be on the mountain height
Or over the stormy sea,
It may not be at the battle’s front
My Lord will have need of me.
But if, by a still, small voice he calls
To paths that I do not know,
I’ll answer, dear Lord, with my hand in thine:
I’ll go where you want me to go.
 
I’ll go where you want me to go, dear Lord,
Over mountain or plain or sea;
I’ll say what you want me to say, dear Lord;
I’ll be what you want me to be.
 
There’s surely somewhere a lowly place
In earth’s harvest fields so wide
Where I may labor through life’s short day
For Jesus, the Crucified.
So trusting my all to thy tender care,
And knowing thou lovest me,
I’ll do thy will with a heart sincere:
I’ll be what you want me to be.
 
I’ll go where you want me to go, dear Lord,
Over mountain or plain or sea;
I’ll say what you want me to say, dear Lord;
I’ll be what you want me to be.
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Approaching it from a slightly different viewpoint.

Many Protestants can choose where they wish to attend church.  Some of the Protestant religions recognize the things done by other Protestant religions in their official capacities of authority (things such as Baptism, confirmation, communion, etc).  Thus, at times for those who are in some protestant religions it comes down to finding a congregation that you feel most comfortable with. 

If they were raised in this manner the way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can seem odd and very weird.  It can seem the luck of the draw or roll of the dice on who you get to spend your Sunday Services with.

On the otherhand, with a Catholic Background there is a very similar thing among Catholics.  You will be assigned to a parish.  This is normally a specific area.  You register at the parish over your area and that Parish is the only one that you can typically get certain ordinances or actions from (at least in my experience, I'm not a Catholic priest and have no divinity training in Catholicism).  You can go anywhere and get Mass if you so desired, but you still belong to the Parish over the area.

This helps to keep order in the Catholic Church.  It helps to keep things organized and to ensure a line of authority from the Highest echelons of the Church down to it's lowest member.

There are some that do not like this system.  It feels as if it is too restrictive.  They desire to have more of the freedom they see their Protestant friends have in choosing a church and congregation.

I can see both sides of the coin.  I have been blessed never to have been in a bad ward (thus far) though there have been times I wish that I was in a different ward.  I had a yearning to be equal with my peers and yet when I was younger I saw many become High Priests and leaders in the Church while I was not.  Many seemed to have family and area connections or wealth whereas I did not, even though I attended faithfully.  At times I felt it was very unfair and wish that I was part of another ward or lived in an area where I would be valued more.   This may have been the flawed thoughts of my younger years (because in reality, I do not feel the Lord is a respecter of persons in that degree and he values everyone from the lowest member to the highest.  It's not about what position you are given, but what actions you take in life and how you express your faith that matters more), but I do know how I felt at those times.

That is not to say I was ever in a bad ward.  As I said, I have always been in decent wards.  I have not had the experiences of bad wards that others have had and in that I would suppose I have been blessed.  I was just unhappy with my lot in the ward (which I would say now was more a personal problem rather than anything with the ward itself).

If I could have chosen different ward to be in, or even a different stake, there's a good chance I would have gone hunting.

However, that is not the way of the church.  The Church has a line of priesthood authority and as such, order and organization need to be adhered to.  I think this is the big thing behind much.  One of the aspects that set the Church as different from others (and Catholics would also claim this about their church as well...but as I said they ALSO have organizations such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is that we feel we have the correct authority of the Lord.  This authority is the Priesthood and as such needs to be administered in accordance with the Lord's direction.  The Lord is one of order, not chaos, and as such, as any organization we have leaders in a matter of structure.  We go from the highest ranks to those of the lowest ranks. 

Thus, we are assigned to different wards and stakes (and so forth) for those who are assigned to hold the higher positions to be able to serve (or hopefully serve) those in their areas assigned.  In this the leadership is supposed to be one of service, rather than that of command, and those served are supposed to be the members that are assigned to those wards or stakes.

I can understand how this can be difficult for some who grow up in a ward and grow close to friends.  When a ward splits or they are assigned to a different stake, if the only connection they normally have with those friends is through the Church this can be difficult.  It can feel like they will never see those friends again or have the close associations with them.  In a ward that one does not feel they have any friends with, it can feel isolating and difficult to go to church.  As a young married couple we saw several expansions of the wards and stakes we were in.  One of the stakes used to be 2 hours across from one end to the other.  When it was eventually split and then split again there were friends from across the stake that we did not see since.  We were friends, but not close enough to see each other out of church.

On the otherhand I have also been fortunate to have friends that are not dependent on this.  One good friend I play chess and other games.  Over the years it does not matter if we are in the same ward or even the same stake, we keep in contact with each other and organize times to see each other.  What I think it boils down to are people are different.  People have different reactions to the church and it's organizations at times.  What may be easy for one may be very difficult for another.  I have never had a particularly hard time with wards changing but I have a grandson that took moving to another ward EXTREMELY hard.  He got so depressed that eventually his parents had to get some medical intervention in that regard.  It was a very hard time for him and very hard for him to go through.  Now, he is as vibrant as ever and I feel more involved with church then ever before, but for a while, it was very hard for him.

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10 hours ago, MormonGator said:

All true, though from what my bishop told me, only the assigned bishop can give you a temple recommend, so it forces your hand a bit. I could be wrong, this is what he told me. 

I believe what he told you is correct.   Only your Bishop can give you a temple recommend, accept your tithes and offerings, etc.; you can't go to another bishop to do this.

Sometimes there are exceptions made to be in a ward different from the one you reside in, but those are rare.  I have seen it twice (I have been in a lot of wards) where people were ask to attend another ward though.   

When I was a kid, one of my friend's dad was called to be the bishop of a ward where he didn't live within the boundaries.   We were in the Hillsdale Ward and he was called to be bishop in the Decker Lake Ward (I think).  I have no idea why or what the circumstances were.  What is even stranger is that it was only him who was called to be in the other ward, his family was still in the other ward and had their callings there and would attend there.   It was in a completely different building, not a different ward in the same building.

Another time a woman who was in and living in a different ward was called to our ward (even though she didn't live in the boundaries).  It was because a deaf person was in our ward and the woman knew how to do sign language.

So sometimes exceptions are made, but they are rare.  

 

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10 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The time that I've seen this happen most frequently is when a couple divorce and don't want to still attend the same ward together. In these instances, I've never seen a request to attend a ward outside of your boundaries be denied. 

We have a couple in our ward for whom we didn't even make this an option. But the children are in a split custody situation, and it made sense to have them always attend the same ward. The adults can suffer.

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Guest MormonGator
On 11/22/2019 at 9:02 PM, askandanswer said:

Sounds like you need to go out and find, teach and baptise some young 'uns. If people are uncomfortable with the demographics of the ward they are in, that is an issue about which they can do something. 

I could also say the same thing to the ward, but I'd never tell them that because it's such an insulting and naive thing to say. 

It's like, hard to get converts man. If it was easy then the conversion rate for most areas in the states would be much better. They are not. 

Edited by MormonGator
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On the topic of astrology:

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any videos just featuring the bit I wanted, which goes to about 3:45. So be warned that some episodes may be spoiled for you if you watch through to the end and haven't seen Psych season 2 but want to.

Edited by SilentOne
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On 11/22/2019 at 3:02 PM, LadyGunnar said:

That is assuming that everyone in the church is seeking the Lord's council.  I know many do not. People pay for other people's decisions.  

That is totally irrelevant if you personally are following the Lord's council.  Lets take your case as an example.  Before you moved the council was to seek the Lord's guidance/approval/direction.  If we assume you did.. while you might not have been aware of the changes coming when you made the choice the Lord absolutely was aware when he approved it.  Given that it would mean you are exactly were the Lord would have you facing the challenge and trial the Lord has ordained for you to experience.  The Church is not in the business of countering the will of the Lord.  Thus if you followed council you can take heart that you are exactly where the Lord wants you to be even though it is hard.

If you did not follow council. If the Lord in his wisdom was going to guide you elsewhere because he knew what was happening...  And you did not ask, did not listen, if you put your own wisdom ahead of the Lord's... Well then you really have only yourself to blame then.  The church had already spent a lot of effort in trying to help you, and as you noted people ignore it. 

As for suffering because of others people's poor choices that has been true since the Garden of Eden.  That is why even now our Prophet is warning and forewarning us that we will not survive if we do not have and take the Holy Sprint as our guide.

Either one chooses to follow the council the Lord has given us so our suffering can be turned to our good through the Lord's wisdom.  Or we can choose to ignore the council and then our suffering will either break us into humility or destruction. 

The myth, the satanic illusion, the lie, is that one should not suffer as part of our test and trials here in mortally.  That is not the promise the Lord makes, that is not the promise we see in scripture.  The promise we get is that he will support us in such if we turn to him.

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15 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

That is totally irrelevant if you personally are following the Lord's council.  Lets take your case as an example.  Before you moved the council was to seek the Lord's guidance/approval/direction.  If we assume you did.. while you might not have been aware of the changes coming when you made the choice the Lord absolutely was aware when he approved it.  Given that it would mean you are exactly were the Lord would have you facing the challenge and trial the Lord has ordained for you to experience.  The Church is not in the business of countering the will of the Lord.  Thus if you followed council you can take heart that you are exactly where the Lord wants you to be even though it is hard.

If you did not follow council. If the Lord in his wisdom was going to guide you elsewhere because he knew what was happening...  And you did not ask, did not listen, if you put your own wisdom ahead of the Lord's... Well then you really have only yourself to blame then.  The church had already spent a lot of effort in trying to help you, and as you noted people ignore it. 

As for suffering because of others people's poor choices that has been true since the Garden of Eden.  That is why even now our Prophet is warning and forewarning us that we will not survive if we do not have and take the Holy Sprint as our guide.

Either one chooses to follow the council the Lord has given us so our suffering can be turned to our good through the Lord's wisdom.  Or we can choose to ignore the council and then our suffering will either break us into humility or destruction. 

The myth, the satanic illusion, the lie, is that one should not suffer as part of our test and trials here in mortally.  That is not the promise the Lord makes, that is not the promise we see in scripture.  The promise we get is that he will support us in such if we turn to him.

I have suffered. My life has not been easy.  I won't get into that.

  We had 2 houses that we looked at and liked. My husband and I both got a either house will do when we prayed.  I went with this one because I liked the ward better. I can't tell you how many times I have regretted that because of this ward. Some times there are many paths that you can go down. 

I worry about my kids not having other youth in our ward. It's hard on kids to not have other youth to be around and lean on.

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1 hour ago, LadyGunnar said:

I have suffered. My life has not been easy.  I won't get into that.

  We had 2 houses that we looked at and liked. My husband and I both got a either house will do when we prayed.  I went with this one because I liked the ward better. I can't tell you how many times I have regretted that because of this ward. Some times there are many paths that you can go down. 

I worry about my kids not having other youth in our ward. It's hard on kids to not have other youth to be around and lean on.

The Lord knew the split was coming... if he said that either home would do... then either home would have brought you the necessary suffering.  Now you are experiencing a version of "The grass is greener." Trying to avoid it or thinking the other path would have been easier.  That is wishful and deceptive thinking..  While we can't say what kind of suffering would have come from the other house we can know for sure the Lord would have not denied you the blessings that suffering would bring you, if you endure it well.

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26 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The Lord knew the split was coming... if he said that either home would do... then either home would have brought you the necessary suffering.  Now you are experiencing a version of "The grass is greener." Trying to avoid it or thinking the other path would have been easier.  That is wishful and deceptive thinking..  While we can't say what kind of suffering would have come from the other house we can know for sure the Lord would have not denied you the blessings that suffering would bring you, if you endure it well.

Or I can sell this house and move somewhere that my kids will have other youth. Do you have any idea how hard it is to not have any youth your age?

I think you see suffering different than I do.  

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On 11/22/2019 at 12:14 PM, LadyGunnar said:

Not when they just draw lines or you move into a ward. It's hard on kids when they are the only ones in a ward.  I have talked to people who helped reorganize wards.  They just looked at where to find the best numbers of men. One told me that they were told to spilt the wealthy and poor sections of town to try and equalize the ward. It was like 2 wards in one. They never mixed. 

I suggest you read the second volume of the Saints.  Were there mistakes in organizing the companies to travel West and settle in the Salt Lake Valley.  Yes there were mistakes - mistakes that costs the lives, especially lives of young mothers and their infant children.  I descended from such a "broken" family.  I have a great great grandmother that traveled across to Utah as an infant that lost her mother on the way.  She never had a pair of shoes til later in her teen age years - She walked to school bear foot in the snow in northern Utah (Brigham City).

I use to think that if you had a calling that G-d would make it easy to complete the task.  One thing I have learned is that we all must face difficulty and challenge to one's resolve and obedience.  The song "Come Come Ye Saints" was written to inspire our ancestors through hardships when 1 in 5 died in the struggles - mostly young mothers and new born children.

The promise given in following our leaders is not that it will be easy - the promise is that it will be worth it.

 

The Traveler

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