Should crimes of political rivals be investigated?


Traveler
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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

So, around 64.7 million a year, or with 16 million members around $4 a year per member???

Or if we reduce that to an average of 8 million members...$8  a year per member.

Of course, that's been accelerated recently, it used to be around 40 million a year (I think it was around 2 years ago) which was probably around 2.6 million per member, or if we take the lower average around $5 per member per year at the time...

However, I should note, I do not think this actually is with the Fast offerings that are given locally.  Those are counted differently.  That amount I think is purely to humanities type projects such as hurricane cleanup, medical supplies and other such activities.  Fast offerings I think are given out differently.

Personally, I would rather they spend the money on keeping the church running and ensuring that don't outbuild themselves (build to many buildings and such).  Another area they could ABSOLUTELY improve on is improving internet access (anyone know how aggravating it is to try to log on at times as the Bishopric and jump through loop holes just to get the work done that the Church wants done there!!!!???  And people wonder why callings and rolls sometimes are not the most up to date, the Church does NOT make it easy)...as well as improving SECURITY over personal information (it is VERY unnerving to have some individual you don't know all that well come up to you and start talking about your age, birthdate, and other personal information you never would have allowed them to have in the first place, but the church really gives no other options).  In fact, I'd rank improving internet security as their number one priority.

I imagine they don't let it out but with how lax it seems I would not be surprised if the church membership record database has been hacked many times at this point simply due to lack of the general internet security protocols that they should be using.

So, I don't have a problem with how much the church gives out in regards to charity overall (our tithing dollars are not supposed to be for charity, but to uphold the church and it's organization, Fast offerings are supposed to help the needy, but unfortunately we normally don't have enough of those in many places to support the local needs of those in need)...if they do...great...but if they use it for other things (such as securing our personal information which I feel is VERY insecure under the church)...GREAT!

PS: One of the things that makes me most nervous is how lackadaisical the church acts towards our personal information in this age where identity theft is rife and predators for that information are constantly on the prowl. [I also suspect that an event I had a few years back where a member had used my personal information to obtain access to charging things to my accounts was obtained via their ease at accessing that information from the church records...so...I really would like the Church to stop providing as much personal information on members as they do in the US.  It's somewhat better in Europe now days I understand due to laws in Europe to that effect, but not as restrictive as they probably should be].

TL: DR

I was responding to the discussion @Traveler and I were having, just mentioning  that they've given straight cash before. 

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My son is headed to serving a mission.  We were talking to the Bishop about the monthly contributions IN CASH that we make towards my son's mission fund and what happens if one of our missionaries couldn't make the monthly contributions.  Our Bishop says, in the years he's been bishop he never had to worry about it because he has never had to ask for donations to the mission fund even when we had 4 missionaries out at the same time from our ward who couldn't make the contributions.  There has always been enough money for the mission fund from people in our ward routing their money on the tithing slip and he even had to tell some missionaries not to worry about sending in a contribution because somebody already did it for them.

But, yeah.  According to @Traveler these missionaries can't be grateful for those funds and those giving in contributions for them are not charitable because the missionary can't eat their money and somehow, having them use the money to buy food when their starving is out of the question.  And now they're obligated to have the give the money back.  Yeah.  That makes complete sense.

Edited by anatess2
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20 hours ago, Traveler said:

The only time I am aware of cash given is when it is too difficult to provide goods and services directly and then - it is my understanding that the money is donated with strings attached to insure that goods and services will be provided - I have never heard of the Church passing out cash to starving victims of some circumstance.  But perhaps you could enlighten me.  I have received checks (cash) from the Church to pay for a particular person's rent in property I own - but these checks to not come from my tenet but directly from the church.  It is my understanding that whenever possible such cash payments do not go through those receiving charity.

Whenever I receive such a check - I always contact my tenet and offer opportunities for them to work off all or some of their rent.

 

The Traveler

This makes as much sense as a coconut growing in the snow too.  It's okay for somebody to give the landlord cash to pay for your rent - that's charity.  But if that somebody gives the money to you so you can go to the landlord to pay for your rent - that's a loan.  Twisting the logic into pretzels just to cling to one's idea of money being the root of evil... is like twisting the logic into pretzels to cling to one's idea that a gun on a table will somehow kill people.

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14 hours ago, MormonGator said:

"Since 1985, LDS Charities has provided over $2.2 billion in assistance, including cash, commodities and in-kind donations in 197 countries and territories." 

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/lds-charities-releases-2018-annual-report
 

Please note that the cash given was not distributed as cash.  Though the link you provided does not show church auditing procedures for cash distributions if you read the article it lists the final distributions as:

. Emergency response: 155 projects in 50 countries

. Food security: 311,700 people assisted in 16 countries; 51 scholarships awarded to scholars in 11 countries

. Vision: 309,800 people helped in 35 countries

. Maternal and newborn care: 53,800 trained caregivers in 39 countries

. Clean water and sanitation: 657,500 people aided in 28 countries

. Immunizations: seven campaigns benefiting seven countries

.Wheelchairs: 53,800 people helped in 40 countries

 

The point is - and this is critically important.  Cash is not distributed to those in need.  And you can be sure that unlike the Clinton and other such charitable organizations - only a very small portion of cash donations go towards "overhead" as to 90% that is often the case.  There is no indication that cash was distributed at the bottom line.  Rather the cash was used to purchase the goods and services that the church could not provide directly.

 

The Traveler

 

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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Please note that the cash given was not distributed as cash.

Please note, it says "including cash". Therefore, the church publication is either lying or....you are incorrect. 

 

And, um, saying "cash given was not distributed as cash" doesn't make any sense. 

Edited by MormonGator
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23 hours ago, Traveler said:

I would rather eat grubs and grasshoppers than money.  To be blatantly honest - I have been starving and willing to attempt to eat grasshoppers - which are absolutely horrible and bitter.

Really?  You're starving in a place where there's a store nextdoor and you would rather eat grubs and grasshoppers because you have to make it a condition for the Charity that the person giving you the money will have to be the one to walk into the store to buy food because you refuse to do it yourself?  Yeah, I've met people like that...  we just left Ruth Chris' steakhouse after an anniversary dinner and we were holding a bag of left-over steaks and this guy begged us for food so we gave him our Ruth's Chris bag, he pawed through the bag and responded with, "I don't like steaks.".  Yep.  Sure ruined that good feeling we felt as we exercised the pure charity we felt in our hearts that compelled us to give him our steaks.  That would be me trying to exercise my love for my fellowman and having the misfortune of having you to be that fellowman.  

Edited by anatess2
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I don't know details about the church's charitable activities outside of fast offerings, but I do know fast offerings.  And no, we never give cash directly to a welfare recipient.   Whenever possible, we try to pay a bill.  You hand us a car payment invoice or a medical bill or something, and we write a check to the loan company or the hospital.   If the elders come fix your roof, elder Handy can submit the expenses where he bought nails and shingles, and we'll cut him a check based on receipts. 

Under no circumstances will we ever give the welfare recipient a check.  To do so would be a violation of the guidelines, and audit ding, and the stake would be yelling at us (assuming the finance clerks weren't yelling loud enough to stop the bishop in the first place.)

Some bishops are just not financially minded, and struggle with the concept.  The way I put it: "OK, someone has a welfare need.  I'll cut a check, but you have to prove to me that the member doesn't use the money for drugs and hookers."  Writing a member a check to cover a credit card bill doesn't prove that.  Writing a utility company a check for a gas bill does.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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56 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This makes as much sense as a coconut growing in the snow too.  It's okay for somebody to give the landlord cash to pay for your rent - that's charity.  But if that somebody gives the money to you so you can go to the landlord to pay for your rent - that's a loan.  Twisting the logic into pretzels just to cling to one's idea of money being the root of evil... is like twisting the logic into pretzels to cling to one's idea that a gun on a table will somehow kill people.

I am aware and have been involved where an individual in need (because of addictions) cannot be trusted with cash.  This does not mean that they do not have needs but rather that they cannot be trusted with cash to meet the requirements of their needs.  Whenever we talk about giving cash to someone in need the assumption is that cash would be used towards that need.

I am of the mind that giving cash to a terrorists to cause harm and kill is not charity - ever - even if you think or believe the cash would be used for good.  I believe with liberty and freedom comes responsibility -- and that a person has the responsibility to be responsible for the results of our actions and whenever or however we discover the results of our actions are not good - that we repent.  

Part of knowing the truth is the knowledge of the outcome.  This can only be understood through the Gift of the Holy Ghost and obedience to divine covenants (everlasting covenant).  I would say that if one has received divine revelation concerning their charity - then it is good with them and repentance will not be necessary.

But now the intent of this thread has been lost - which is that when corruption takes place all that are involved suffer.  Some suffer because of sacrifice for the sake of others and some suffer for their own sake.  We all suffer and we will all die - some will suffer and die with the intent for their own glory - a few will suffer and die for the glory of others.

I believe that whenever there is a crime - it ought to be investigated.  If money is given as charity - including foreign aid - that those providing aid should be held accountable and that there always should be care that such aid is used responsibly.  Giving cash as aid should require more responsibility than goods and services.  Corruption come in two forms 1. Giving with out responsibility  2. Refusing to give when there is need.  

I do not believe that G-d will do for someone else something that will not benefit them.  I do not believe we can call a gift charity unless it will benefit those in need.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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24 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am aware and have been involved where an individual in need (because of addictions) cannot be trusted with cash.  This does not mean that they do not have needs but rather that they cannot be trusted with cash to meet the requirements of their needs.  Whenever we talk about giving cash to someone in need the assumption is that cash would be used towards that need.

I am of the mind that giving cash to a terrorists to cause harm and kill is not charity - ever - even if you think or believe the cash would be used for good.  I believe with liberty and freedom comes responsibility -- and that a person has the responsibility to be responsible for the results of our actions and whenever or however we discover the results of our actions are not good - that we repent.  

Part of knowing the truth is the knowledge of the outcome.  This can only be understood through the Gift of the Holy Ghost and obedience to divine covenants (everlasting covenant).  I would say that if one has received divine revelation concerning their charity - then it is good with them and repentance will not be necessary.

But now the intent of this thread has been lost - which is that when corruption takes place all that are involved suffer.  Some suffer because of sacrifice for the sake of others and some suffer for their own sake.  We all suffer and we will all die - some will suffer and die with the intent for their own glory - a few will suffer and die for the glory of others.

I believe that whenever there is a crime - it ought to be investigated.  If money is given as charity - including foreign aid - that those providing aid should be held accountable and that there always should be care that such aid is used responsibly.  Giving cash as aid should require more responsibility than goods and services.  Corruption come in two forms 1. Giving with out responsibility  2. Refusing to give when there is need.  

I do not believe that G-d will do for someone else something that will not benefit them.  I do not believe we can call a gift charity unless it will benefit those in need.

 

The Traveler

Now you moved the goalposts... now you're saying not to give money as charitable contribution because you can't trust that the money will go towards good things.  THAT'S NOT the discussion at all.  The discussion was your idea that charitable contributions made in cash has to be paid back.

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Now you moved the goalposts... now you're saying not to give money as charitable contribution because you can't trust that the money will go towards good things.  THAT'S NOT the discussion at all.  The discussion was your idea that charitable contributions made in cash has to be paid back.

I would hope that all feel an obligation when receiving charity.  Even G-d does not provide unless there is a covenant.  The Charity of Christ was established through covenant before the foundations of the world; as G-d made a covenant to establish his Plan of Salvation.  I believe that even charity must be given by covenant - and if properly received - by divine law must be received by covenant.  According to the Doctrine and Covenants scripture - all transactions that do not abide by the divine law of covenant will have an end (meaning no value) when we die.  I am suggesting that we become partakers of charity (to give and receive) by covenant.

 

The Traveler

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13 hours ago, Traveler said:

I would hope that all feel an obligation when receiving charity.  Even G-d does not provide unless there is a covenant.  The Charity of Christ was established through covenant before the foundations of the world; as G-d made a covenant to establish his Plan of Salvation.  I believe that even charity must be given by covenant - and if properly received - by divine law must be received by covenant.  According to the Doctrine and Covenants scripture - all transactions that do not abide by the divine law of covenant will have an end (meaning no value) when we die.  I am suggesting that we become partakers of charity (to give and receive) by covenant.

 

The Traveler

That's another goalpost move.  You didn't say anything about obligations for receiving any form of Charity.  You SPECIFIED CASH and cash only.

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

That's another goalpost move.  You didn't say anything about obligations for receiving any form of Charity.  You SPECIFIED CASH and cash only.

Okay - Why do you think that cash payments are superior to goods and services to anyone in serious need?

 

the Traveler

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On 11/26/2019 at 8:29 AM, MormonGator said:

Please note, it says "including cash". Therefore, the church publication is either lying or....you are incorrect. 

And, um, saying "cash given was not distributed as cash" doesn't make any sense. 

I don't agree with Traveler on some things said above, but I believe there is truth in what he says about the cash.

As far as I know, LDS Humanitarian Services doesn't give out cash to individuals.    They do pay in cash for goods and services though.  This is because in some parts of the world, cash (or wire transfers converted to cash) is the only way to purchase goods, services, medical prodedures or medications, and transportation. 

In places like rural Nepal or Mozambique you can only use cash for transactions.   

Sometimes cash is sent ahead of time in countries that have members.  Cash is sent to stock up on supplies that would need to be purchased for a disaster.  As far as I seen or know, the cash is given to local organizations rather than individuals.  

The websites for Latter-day Saints Charities does mention giving cash to organizations, but when it comes to mentioning individuals, it never mentions giving cash in the stories about individuals.  See here for example:

https://www.latterdaysaintcharities.org/news/find/category:news/initiative:benson-food/page:2

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
5 hours ago, mnn2501 said:

I  am not sure how anyone can listen to the tape where Joe Biden withheld American aid until a Ukrainian prosecutor was fired cannot see that that is a prime example of Quid Pro Quo.

I assure you Congress did not do this hastily.  They’ve been planning for over a year, to impeach Trump for something that happened three months ago.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Guest MormonGator
Just now, NeuroTypical said:

I heard a fun term the other day: #Blexit.  Blacks exiting the democrat party because either they like Trump or they are sick of the Democrat shenanigans like the impeachment circus.

If, and it is a big "If,  republicans can get 30% of the African-American vote, then the democratic party is doomed. Just based on numbers. 

Ironically African-Americans tend to be more socially conservative than white people. That's why democrats generally don't go into black churches and argue for gay marriage and abortion.

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18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

If, and it is a big "If,  republicans can get 30% of the African-American vote, then the democratic party is doomed. Just based on numbers. 

Ironically African-Americans tend to be more socially conservative than white people. That's why democrats generally don't go into black churches and argue for gay marriage and abortion.

Ironies abound. Immigrants, and especially Hispanic immigrants, tend to be family-oriented and religious, and want to work to earn money. We used to have a term for such people. We used to call them Republicans.

So why don't Hispanic immigrants flock to the Republican Party? Maybe because it's full of racist bigots? That's the MSM's bottom line. And it's true that there certainly are racially bigoted Republicans. But on the balance, there is a far greater number of racist Democrats, probably double the number of racist Repubs. So that's not it.

The MSM is lockstep Democrats. Public education, especially at the post-high-school level, is lockstep Democrats. Hollywood is rigidly lockstop Democrats. These are perhaps the most influential American institutions.

There's your reason.

Things are not so simple with American blacks, but the same principles apply. Larger numbers of so-called African Americans are seeing not only the hypocrisy of the Democrats, but the savage effects of Democrat thinking on their own homes and neighborhoods. Many of them are abandoning the Democrat Party. I don't think "in droves" applies (yet), but that day is likely coming. I only wish there were a better alternative for such people than the Republicans. For now, I think the Republican Party probably is the best alternative

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I only wish there were a better alternative for such people than the Republicans. For now, I think the Republican Party probably is the best alternative

No party affiliation is a better alternative I think.  Declare yourself whatever party you want to vote in Primaries for then shed the association after the Primaries.  That's about the only thing party affiliation is useful for.

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