Why Eternal Progression?


Guest Mores
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The other day I was in a group discussion where we discussed "journey to destination" type principles.  I mentioned that I believe I've gotten to where I want to be in my earthly life.  And I'm enjoying all the work I'm doing with family, church, professional life, social life...

Immediately after me, one of the mothers in this gathering chimed in and said that she too had arrived.  But she is much younger than I (I'd guess by 10 years or so).  She mentioned that because she arrived so early in life (she's a phenomenally intelligent and capable woman) she's now spending a lot of her time wondering what she's supposed to do now.

I took a moment to ponder that and wondered why I didn't feel the same way.  What was the difference?  I finally decided that my goal was not "retirement".  It was to reach a certain level in my professional, family, church, and social life.  It is not an "end".  It is a horizon.  I continue to work because that was my goal.  I continue to raise my children because that was my goal.  I continue to serve in my calling because that was my goal.  I continue building my social circles because that was my goal.

Her goals were to 

  • Get certain degrees with a level of education beyond degrees.
  • Have a certain net worth and be out of debt (including her mortgage).
  • To be married in the temple and have a couple of kids.

These are "destinations".  They are not horizons.  So, once reached, she has nothing to do.

I consider that the traditional Christian view of heaven is one of a destination.  Our view of the Telestial and Terrestrial are also destinations.  But our concept of the Celestial is a horizon.  We're not going to be sitting around in eternal splendor eating grapes and playing harps through all eternity.  We will be working.  We will be doing.

When I consider my professional life, I know that what I'm doing now is because of all the preparation and proven track record throughout my career.  I don't just "all of a sudden" get a different job.  I gradually came to this job.  And I simply continue to do what I've always done.

The gospel parallel is then somewhat stunning and obvious at the same time.  When considering the Celestial Kingdom, I would suppose it is people who hunger and thirst after righteousness.  This is their primary and consistent way of being.

Just as I continue in my profession because of what I did before I "got here", I realize that whatever we do in this life, we tend to continue in the next, but in a manner that is defined by spiritual sensibilities and perspective.  We find our final destination because we have a proven track record of doing things that we will continue into the next.

The primary work of the Celestial Kingdom is to save souls.  It would then follow that to be welcomed into the Celestial Kingdom, we need to have a proven track record of saving souls in this life.  I then consider what I've done to save souls.  And the truth is, I feel like I've done very little.  I don't want to make this a woe-is-me fest.  That's not the point.  But I just wanted to share this idea on what I consider to be the reality of the Celestial Kingdom and how to get there.

Edited by Mores
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9 minutes ago, Mores said:

  She mentioned that because she arrived so early in life (she's a phenomenally intelligent and capable woman) she's now spending a lot of her time wondering what she's supposed to do now.

Has she ever considered piracy?  She’s make a great Dread Pirate Roberts. ;) 

 

On a more sober note - really great post; and for some reason, the tie between saving souls in the here-and-now and saving souls as a celestial being had never quite hit me that way before.  So, thanks.  

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15 minutes ago, Mores said:

The primary work of the Celestial Kingdom is to save souls.  It would then follow that to be welcomed into the Celestial Kingdom, we need to have a proven track record of saving souls in this life.  I then consider what I've done to save souls.  And the truth is, I feel like I've done very little.  I don't want to make this a woe-is-me fest.  That's not the point.  But I just wanted to share this idea on what I consider to be the reality of the Celestial Kingdom and how to get there.

I have always loved Luke 22:32. I feel it sums up the whole purpose of our existence

when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

We are to become converted and then spend the rest of our lives converting others.

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39 minutes ago, Mores said:

I consider that the traditional Christian view of heaven is one of a destination.  Our view of the Telestial and Terrestrial are also destinations.  But our concept of the Celestial is a horizon.  We're not going to be sitting around in eternal splendor eating grapes and playing harps through all eternity.  We will be working.  We will be doing.

I am reminded of Hugh Nibley's take on the choirs of heaven singing praises to the Lamb. Other denominations consider this the final, blessed state of man, to sing forever to God. Nibley simply said, "That's the opening hymn."

I like Nibley.

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Any fantasy geeks here?  This topic reminds me of Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series.  There's a group of "magic users" (using the term loosely).  They have to say a series of oaths to gain access to more power/abilities.  Each order has a different set of oaths, except they all have the first one. 

Quote

Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Immortal_Words

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8 minutes ago, dprh said:

Any fantasy geeks here?  This topic reminds me of Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series.  There's a group of "magic users" (using the term loosely).  They have to say a series of oaths to gain access to more power/abilities.  Each order has a different set of oaths, except they all have the first one. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Immortal_Words

Brandon who?

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2 hours ago, dprh said:

Any fantasy geeks here?  This topic reminds me of Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series.  There's a group of "magic users" (using the term loosely).  They have to say a series of oaths to gain access to more power/abilities.  Each order has a different set of oaths, except they all have the first one. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Immortal_Words

Book 4 comes out soon.  Im so excited.  

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/

82% thru the 1st draft!

Journey before Destination!   

Live it Love it Learn it.

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Every end is just a new beginning.

Watch out, that light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train.

As a physician I see lots of patients.  When people decide to slow down and stop their regular activities they start dying. 

Edited by mikbone
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D&C 122: 7 know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

When one understands the setting of this scriptures, one must ask...

What does the future hold for us?  Why would we need such awful experiences.  How can this possibly be for my good?

 

Im my opinion, when we get to heaven we will not be presented with a cornucopia, harp, and fluffy bathrobe.

More likely we get a personal Urim and Thummim with the entire library of knowledge.  And some heavy duty work clothes.  

 

I can't freakin wait, for the undiscovered country.  

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26 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I can't freakin wait, for the undiscovered country.

The gift of death comes to all, whether or not they welcome it. Once on the other side of death, we will view it very differently indeed, certainly without any remote sign of terror. But let's take comfort in the fact that death is there for us and not going away, and improve our time here while we dwell in the "blessed vessel".

I agree with you about harp and robes vs. work gloves and assignments.

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6 hours ago, Mores said:

The other day I was in a group discussion where we discussed "journey to destination" type principles.  I mentioned that I believe I've gotten to where I want to be in my earthly life.  And I'm enjoying all the work I'm doing with family, church, professional life, social life...

Immediately after me, one of the mothers in this gathering chimed in and said that she too had arrived.  But she is much younger than I (I'd guess by 10 years or so).  She mentioned that because she arrived so early in life (she's a phenomenally intelligent and capable woman) she's now spending a lot of her time wondering what she's supposed to do now.

I took a moment to ponder that and wondered why I didn't feel the same way.  What was the difference?  I finally decided that my goal was not "retirement".  It was to reach a certain level in my professional, family, church, and social life.  It is not an "end".  It is a horizon.  I continue to work because that was my goal.  I continue to raise my children because that was my goal.  I continue to serve in my calling because that was my goal.  I continue building my social circles because that was my goal.

Her goals were to 

  • Get certain degrees with a level of education beyond degrees.
  • Have a certain net worth and be out of debt (including her mortgage).
  • To be married in the temple and have a couple of kids.

These are "destinations".  They are not horizons.  So, once reached, she has nothing to do.

I consider that the traditional Christian view of heaven is one of a destination.  Our view of the Telestial and Terrestrial are also destinations.  But our concept of the Celestial is a horizon.  We're not going to be sitting around in eternal splendor eating grapes and playing harps through all eternity.  We will be working.  We will be doing.

When I consider my professional life, I know that what I'm doing now is because of all the preparation and proven track record throughout my career.  I don't just "all of a sudden" get a different job.  I gradually came to this job.  And I simply continue to do what I've always done.

The gospel parallel is then somewhat stunning and obvious at the same time.  When considering the Celestial Kingdom, I would suppose it is people who hunger and thirst after righteousness.  This is their primary and consistent way of being.

Just as I continue in my profession because of what I did before I "got here", I realize that whatever we do in this life, we tend to continue in the next, but in a manner that is defined by spiritual sensibilities and perspective.  We find our final destination because we have a proven track record of doing things that we will continue into the next.

The primary work of the Celestial Kingdom is to save souls.  It would then follow that to be welcomed into the Celestial Kingdom, we need to have a proven track record of saving souls in this life.  I then consider what I've done to save souls.  And the truth is, I feel like I've done very little.  I don't want to make this a woe-is-me fest.  That's not the point.  But I just wanted to share this idea on what I consider to be the reality of the Celestial Kingdom and how to get there.

I believe this is a good subject - but there is an profound difference between fulfilling one's mortal purpose (probation) and being about one's eternal destiny.  Paul makes a very interesting reference in Romans (chapter 4)  where the Sabbath (day of rest) in connected to the eternal rest or Sabbath of G-d.  In short the Sabbath (Sunday) is a to pursue our eternal purpose.  One could assume that if watching football was their eternal purpose - that would be a most perfect Sabbath activity.  What we purpose to do with our Sabbath is the essence of our eternal purpose - and therefore called a day or time of "rest" or should we say "divine rest" - which I believe is nothing like what is often thought of as retirement.

 

The Traveler

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12 hours ago, Mores said:

We're not going to be sitting around in eternal splendor eating grapes and playing harps through all eternity.  We will be working.  We will be doing.

I hope I don't get struck by lightning just for asking this, but I am really wondering if anyone feels the same way I do.

I have never been able to fathom exactly about what makes the idea of the Celestial Kingdom so appealing.   It can be said that it is appealing because you get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father and I understand that part, but eternity is a long time and I have never understood why living forever (think about it; living for trillions and trillions of years) is so appealing to our souls.

Eating grapes and playing the harp for hours and hours on end for trillions and trillions of years doesn't seem appealing either.

What is so appealing to you (anyone) about the oportunity to live forever (even if we get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father)?

Is there anyone who here who has thought the same way I have?

I'm not saying that the Celestial Kingdom isn't appealing or that we shouldn't strive for it, but only that I don't understand why it is so appealing.  Forever is a really, really long time.   

Perhaps it is something that we just can't understand on earth.   Or at least I can't.  We are told that it is joyful, but we really don't know that much about the Celestial Kingdom.

Should I even be asking this here?  I'm certainly not going to ask these questions in Sunday school!

 

Edited by Scott
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2 hours ago, Scott said:

I hope I don't get struck by lightning just for asking this, but I am really wondering if anyone feels the same way I do.

Nothing wrong with a sincere question.

2 hours ago, Scott said:

I have never been able to fathom exactly about what makes the idea of the Celestial Kingdom so appealing.   It can be said that it is appealing because you get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father and I understand that part, but eternity is a long time and I have never understood why living forever (think about it; living for trillions and trillions of years) is so appealing to our souls.

Eating grapes and playing the harp for hours and hours on end for trillions and trillions of years doesn't seem appealing either.

What is so appealing to you (anyone) about the oportunity to live forever (even if we get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father)?

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

The promise from God is that we can and will experience an intense joy beyond all mortal comprehension, a joy that does not dim with time. I choose to believe the promise.

2 hours ago, Scott said:

Is there anyone who here who has thought the same way I have?

I would guess that every thoughtful human adult that believes in or even suspects an eternal afterlife has thought about this topic.

2 hours ago, Scott said:

I'm not saying that the Celestial Kingdom isn't appealing or that we shouldn't strive for it, but only that I don't understand why it is so appealing.  Forever is a really, really long time.

Sounds like an Yngwie Malmsteen lyric. But I would ask in all seriousness: How do you know? You have no remembered experience with eternity. What makes you think that living in eternity is the same as living as in mortality, except that things never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever end?

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2 hours ago, Scott said:

but eternity is a long time and I have never understood why living forever (think about it; living for trillions and trillions of years) is so appealing to our souls... I'm not saying that the Celestial Kingdom isn't appealing or that we shouldn't strive for it, but only that I don't understand why it is so appealing.  Forever is a really, really long time.

Initial thoughts: I'm going to be living forever whatever happens. In the celestial kingdom, I'll be progressing throughout that time.

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I'd like to live forever, and longer...at least if I can enjoy it.  

Of course, I'd love to simply have a library and read books and media till forever.  I'm not sure I'll be given the time to do that in the Celestial Kingdom, but we will see if my paradise can be matched.

The idea of being able to have children or watch over children (even those who are unmarried, as servants will probably not be servants as we imagine them here, but those who wish to help others in raising and aiding the children of others) is appealing to me.  I love children, so that sounds pretty good.

Perhaps our ideal in the Celestial kingdom will be matched by what our ideal is in our souls pertaining to our love and delight eternally.

On the otherhand, if I ended up as a Son of Perdition (of which I hope I do not), an eternity of torture sounds like something I'd rather want to avoid.  Suffering for all eternity sounds like something I'd want to not endure if I needn't have to.

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19 hours ago, Scott said:

I hope I don't get struck by lightning just for asking this, but I am really wondering if anyone feels the same way I do.

I have never been able to fathom exactly about what makes the idea of the Celestial Kingdom so appealing.   It can be said that it is appealing because you get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father and I understand that part, but eternity is a long time and I have never understood why living forever (think about it; living for trillions and trillions of years) is so appealing to our souls.

Eating grapes and playing the harp for hours and hours on end for trillions and trillions of years doesn't seem appealing either.

What is so appealing to you (anyone) about the oportunity to live forever (even if we get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father)?

Is there anyone who here who has thought the same way I have?

I'm not saying that the Celestial Kingdom isn't appealing or that we shouldn't strive for it, but only that I don't understand why it is so appealing.  Forever is a really, really long time.   

Perhaps it is something that we just can't understand on earth.   Or at least I can't.  We are told that it is joyful, but we really don't know that much about the Celestial Kingdom.

Should I even be asking this here?  I'm certainly not going to ask these questions in Sunday school!

 

I hope I don't get struck by lightning just for asking this, but I am really wondering if anyone feels the same way I do.

I doubt you will be struck by lighting, but you might want to knock on wood just in case. We know we have a slim chance of being hit by lighting, but we also know some poor souls who have been struck more than once. Just in case, knock on wood. :P

I have never been able to fathom exactly about what makes the idea of the Celestial Kingdom so appealing.

My initial thoughts, in my youth, is that I couldn't understand how anyone could live forever as it wasn't tangible. In my youth, I was afraid to go to sleep because I wasn't sure if I would wake up and end my existence (nothing, gone, no intelligence). I could understand the concept of existing. The concept of not existing scared me greatly.

1) No death, that is appealing

2) No pain, no worry for providing a living at a lame job with lame managers (p.s. I don't have lame job and lame managers now, that is good. Thinking of my past jobs and working with arrogant managers).

3) All needs are met and maintained

4) Perfection with my spouse, who I love talking to, hugging, holding hands, and many other things I can't yet fully imagine.

5) I hear being a grand parent is better than being a parent. Eternity of watching sons and daughters have eternal increase. You get to delegate mortality (never have to experience that again) to learning parents, and when it gets rough you delegate again and discipline wayward children. We understand this will be joy and sorrow (sorrow for the sins and unwillingness of heirs to choose to do right and love their father).

6) It seems we will still be able to enjoy fruit (and if perfect fruit, can you imagine every time you take a bite out of your favorite fruit it isn't spoiled or bad -- great tasting)

7) Would Adam and Eve loved to have lived up until now, our modern day? I see grandparents who want to hang on in this life as long as they can in order to be with their little ones. We will be with our little ones for eternity.

8 ) No sin! Don't have to deal with corrupt politicians, power hungry humans, greedy men and women who will trample under their feet anyone and everyone to obtain their goal. I suppose that is to a point though (Satan and his followers did exist pre-mortal life).

9) I assume the praise we often hear in the Bible is no different than a gathering of like minded (Godly) souls who worship similar to our Sabbath. Except our God and Lord will be attending with us. There are still general assemblies of the sons and daughters of God.

10) I will be able to visit my Pa! I get to see her again, and I get to be with her forever, and sadly didn't have her long enough on earth while she was alive. We get to be with loved ones forever!

11) We won't have to worry about squabbles. If in our progression, as we are still learning to be like God, we don't have to worry about people who are unwilling to repent in the Celestial kingdom. No pride! No contention!

Edited by Anddenex
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I am reminded of the Joseph Smith quote: “A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.”

I think this is the earthly application of what it means to live an exalted life or life like God. A person filled with this kind of love is never truly satisfied with what they have accomplished, notwithstanding the great joy it has brought, because so long as creation continues so does that internal drive to exalt that creation continue. This person also sees eternity as none too long because every day is filled with great meaning and purpose. As for me, I know I am not there yet. All too often I am content to let the world go on its merry way but at times I do get a glimpse of that kind of life and it urges me on.

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On 12/4/2019 at 9:11 AM, dprh said:

Any fantasy geeks here?  This topic reminds me of Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series.  There's a group of "magic users" (using the term loosely).  They have to say a series of oaths to gain access to more power/abilities.  Each order has a different set of oaths, except they all have the first one. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Immortal_Words

I love his books but I am afraid of starting that series because of what won't get done that should get done as I'm reading those massive books. 😄

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On 12/4/2019 at 9:40 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Has she ever considered piracy?  She’s make a great Dread Pirate Roberts. ;) 

I forwarded your suggestion to her.  She liked the idea.

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23 hours ago, Scott said:

I have never been able to fathom exactly about what makes the idea of the Celestial Kingdom so appealing.   It can be said that it is appealing because you get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father and I understand that part, but eternity is a long time and I have never understood why living forever (think about it; living for trillions and trillions of years) is so appealing to our souls.

No, I've never thought about it like this. But I certainly see a perfectly decent logic to your thoughts here. 

Here's my explanation if it helps:

To truly feel motivated to look forward to it, one must feel what it is like to be there.  While most of us are not going to have a vision like Moses or Joseph & Sidney, we do have the ability to feel, through the Gift of the Holy Ghost, what that world is like.  The more we do that, the more we want to be part of that world.  The "forever" part is not the focus.  It is what you do in that forever that is the focus of Eternal Life.

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 10:24 PM, Scott said:

I hope I don't get struck by lightning just for asking this, but I am really wondering if anyone feels the same way I do.

I have never been able to fathom exactly about what makes the idea of the Celestial Kingdom so appealing.   It can be said that it is appealing because you get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father and I understand that part, but eternity is a long time and I have never understood why living forever (think about it; living for trillions and trillions of years) is so appealing to our souls.

Eating grapes and playing the harp for hours and hours on end for trillions and trillions of years doesn't seem appealing either.

What is so appealing to you (anyone) about the oportunity to live forever (even if we get to live with Jesus and Heavenly Father)?

Is there anyone who here who has thought the same way I have?

I'm not saying that the Celestial Kingdom isn't appealing or that we shouldn't strive for it, but only that I don't understand why it is so appealing.  Forever is a really, really long time.   

Perhaps it is something that we just can't understand on earth.   Or at least I can't.  We are told that it is joyful, but we really don't know that much about the Celestial Kingdom.

Should I even be asking this here?  I'm certainly not going to ask these questions in Sunday school!

 

According to the restored gospel, everybody lives forever - our consciousness are eternal Spirits - regardless of what kingdom we end up in after death.  The death that is talked about regarding salvation is spiritual death - that is, being eternally separated from the Father.

So, to me - we have some choices, do I want to spend the rest of my life in Outer Darkness where our opportunity to learn of Godhood things end?  Or do I want to be in the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms where our opportunity to learn of Godhood things is limited?  Or do I want to be in the Celestial Kingdom where the opportunity to learn and do Godly things is maximized?  I'm thinking of it as living and working in the inner city ghetto having to put up with risking getting stabbed everytime I walked to the park when I could have spent the rest of my life living and working oceanfront with all the cool people, especially with the King of all Cool People if I would have just learned to be cool.

In any case, I don't really think of things like - "I'm doing this because it will get me to the Celestial Kingdom".  I very seldom think that way (sitting in the Celestial Room in the temple, I do tend to think that way because I love the feeling of being in that room).  The way I live my life day to day is - I'm following Christian principles because that's the way to have a peaceful and prosperous society on earth.

 

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I can't figure out how we're going to deal with the sense of overload, or boredom or fulfillment that often comes from repeating the same experience too many times. In mortality, no matter how great, enjoyable, fulfilling, fun, exciting, or whatever, an experience is, eventually we tire of it and what to stop and take a break. Or, looking at a similar concept, when a person who was miserable no longer becomes miserable, the not feeling miserable becomes the new norm and not feeling miserable is no longer enough to bring peace and contentment. When a person starts to feeling happy, if they feel happy for long enough, happiness becomes the new norm and feeling happy is no longer enough to bring them peace and contentment. And when they start to feel really happy, then..............ad infinitum. There is something about mortality that means that no matter how good the conditions are, or what those conditions are, or how much we are enjoying them, we eventually, sometimes even quickly become accustomed to new conditions of living and are no longer happy with what we had, and want more. I wonder if the same principle will apply in immortality, and if not, how this tendency to quickly become bored or no longer satisfied, will be dealt with. 

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