Progression between kingdoms?

[person0]

Even if the idea of progression between kingdoms is ultimately true, what is the personal advantage of discovering and believing it during mortality?  I can't think of any worthwhile mortal advantage; however, I can think of at least one major disadvantage, namely a lack of concern about procrastinating the day of ones repentance.

Edited January 20, 2020 by person0

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I truly don't understand where y'all are coming from.  I'm trying to understand what you're saying so let me see if I can figure out what you think the Plan of Salvation "timeline" is - 

So, when do you think you leave the Spirit World and enter either of the Kingdoms - before or after FINAL judgment?

First I cannot answer for @Phineas - but I do believe there is a difference between what can happen as opposed to what is the most probable to happen.  Some thoughts.

A kingdom is a social political structure governed by laws.  G-d is the supreme Suzerain over all that are resurrected.  Within his social political structure there are different distinctions of Glory.  Often refereed to as a kingdom.  Anyone that can and will (by their agency) abide the Celestial Laws and covenants will abide a Celestial Glory.

I believe (it seem logical to me) that a true exercise of agency is the essence of a Final Judgement.  Thus it seems logical to me that as we exercise our agency we can choose what ever glory we wish.  But then a true exercise of agency - I do not see any logic in a change - regardless of how possible a change may be--  we made a choice by our agency, why or under what condition would a choice of agency change?   The only argument to that question would be - if the choice was not truly an expression of our agency.

So what does it matter what is possible - if the actuality is never going to happen?  If nothing else - it gives otherwise very good Saints; something to disagree about.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

33 minutes ago, Traveler said:

First I cannot answer for @Phineas - but I do believe there is a difference between what can happen as opposed to what is the most probable to happen.  Some thoughts.

A kingdom is a social political structure governed by laws.  G-d is the supreme Suzerain over all that are resurrected.  Within his social political structure there are different distinctions of Glory.  Often refereed to as a kingdom.  Anyone that can and will (by their agency) abide the Celestial Laws and covenants will abide a Celestial Glory.

I believe (it seem logical to me) that a true exercise of agency is the essence of a Final Judgement.  Thus it seems logical to me that as we exercise our agency we can choose what ever glory we wish.  But then a true exercise of agency - I do not see any logic in a change - regardless of how possible a change may be--  we made a choice by our agency, why or under what condition would a choice of agency change?   The only argument to that question would be - if the choice was not truly an expression of our agency.

So what does it matter what is possible - if the actuality is never going to happen?  If nothing else - it gives otherwise very good Saints; something to disagree about.

 

The Traveler

This makes the question even more confusing.

It's really a very simple question - Jesus Christ is the Judge in the Final Judgment.  Nobody else is.  

So, once again the question - when do you believe you get inherit one Kingdom or the other - BEFORE or AFTER Christ makes the judgment?

[brotherofJared]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Its basic reading comprehension of the scriptural phrase "Everlastingly to late" The fact that you are being deliberately obtuse to the idea that it might really mean "Everlastingly to late" is the problem.

My point is that it doesn't mean everlasting too late to repent, but that it might mean, everlastingly too late to care to repent. It is clear that everlasting and eternal do not mean forever, but it appears that you are being deliberately obtuse to the idea that it might really mean too late to care.

I only use the judgment of your reasoning because you chose to judge mine. It's really unnecessary, but I see no problem with using tit for tat.  That being said, I could care less what you think of my opinion. I offer it because I believe it's never too late, though some people seem to get great joy over condemning others when others don't meet their expectations. Just because one happens to believe they are perfect, does not place them in a position to judge others. Everlastingly too late only occurs when one has given up or that they have chosen their life because they would have nothing to do with the kinds of people who judged them as being forever cast out.

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

As for Section 19 since I am the one that pointed it out that it might open that door to a more subtle interpretation therefore your statement  is another instance of your deliberate obtuseness.

I must have missed the subtleness of your point. In fact, I did. It appeared to me that you used it to support the idea that if it's not taken care of in this life, it is everlastingly too late. It is clear from the scriptures that it is never too late. What is the purpose of doing work for the dead if it will have no effect on their salvation? What is the purpose of being baptized at 8 if at 8 we were perfect in Christ, a baptism that took place before we had a chance to get dirty? What I see in your interpretation, as I understand it, is that if one makes a mistake it is everlastingly too late. They seem to miss the point, "and altogether turn therefrom...". And then there is the scripture that specifically that some people are intentionally allowed to fall into forbidden paths that they might obtain a sure knowledge later in the eternities. I see, in all this a ray of hope for the lost, specifically for children who chose the world over the path that their parents chose. Hope for Laman and Lemuel.

This hope in no way nullifies Joseph Smith's teachings that whatsoever a person gains in this life it will be so much better for them in the next life. I believe he used the word, "advantage", not better. We often think that it means secular learning, but I think it also applies to the strength of our faith. I don't think that after we die, that we'll suddenly know that it's all true. I don't believe Christ will be there to greet us as we return to the spirit world. I believe we'll meet those we knew in this life. That being said, for those who knew Christ in this life, yes, those few will meet who they knew in the next life. Faith will continue to be necessary to advance our understanding of the gospel, probably until the day of judgment and who knows how long that will be after we pass from this life into the next. As such, we can still have hope of reaching through the eternities to our children, our loved ones and call on them to exercise faith in Christ unto salvation. We who have that faith will have the advantage. Those who don't will have a great struggle ahead of them, but it is possible. We have to believe it is else why seal families?

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

I never said it was not possible, I said Section 19 shows that God has very good reasons for using terms like eternity, and everlasting, in instances where they might not be they way we would use them.  Even if we disagree with the use of the words we should respect the reasoning and wisdom of the all knowing all powerful creator when he chooses to use them.

I believe I am respecting his definitions of the words which means it's only everlastingly too late when the person chooses it to be so

 

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

But I have grown tired to defending myself from your gross mischaracterizations of my position and words.  I see no reason (or ability really) to have a discussion when the other side is clearing willing to lie and distort to try to make a point

That's your choice. If you think that I misunderstood you and that I'm claiming that you said something that you didn't, then why do you think you're defending your statements? It's simple for me. Either we have an opportunity to advance from one glory to another or we don't. If you think we don't, then you have reason to defend your statements. If you used Section 19 to defend your position that it's not possible, then for me, it failed, gross or not.

Edited January 20, 2020 by brotherofJared

[brotherofJared]

20 hours ago, Phineas said:

The plan of salvation makes no sense if there is no progression between kingdoms. Why place a time limit on our progression towards divinity?

I believe the problem with accepting this is that it comes close to a doctrine that preaches universal salvation that all will eventually be saved in the Celestial kingdom and that is a false doctrine. When a person turns altogether therefrom... It's over. There will be no progression, but it will be their choice. IMO

[brotherofJared]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I truly don't understand where y'all are coming from.  I'm trying to understand what you're saying so let me see if I can figure out what you think the Plan of Salvation "timeline" is - 

So, when do you think you leave the Spirit World and enter either of the Kingdoms - before or after FINAL judgment?

There isn't a timeline. Eternity, meaning forever, has no timeline.

If the point is moving between kingdoms, then it doesn't matter when we leave the spirit world or when final judgment is. We will have been slotted into a world and we get to choose whether or not we will advance or not. That is the point of advancing between glories.

[brotherofJared]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

Even if the idea of progression between kingdoms is ultimately true, what is the personal advantage of discovering and believing it during mortality?  I can't think of any worthwhile mortal advantage; however, I can think of at least one major disadvantage, namely a lack of concern about procrastinating the day of ones repentance.

The advantage is that what we have here really is the plan of happiness. The advantage is that we can work to bring our lost children and progenitors to Christ because we know it's the plan of happiness. If it isn't the plan of happiness, then you are correct, there is no advantage. But I've experienced that it is, and this discovery came after feigning that I might eat the husks that the swine did eat.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

This makes the question even more confusing.

It's really a very simple question - Jesus Christ is the Judge in the Final Judgment.  Nobody else is.  

So, once again the question - when do you believe you get inherit one Kingdom or the other - BEFORE or AFTER Christ makes the judgment?

No one else?  Sounds a lot like determinism.

I am under the impression that the plan of salvation has as its primary and over arching principle - Agency!  And that Jesus Christ is our advocate and savior.  So my question is - Who decides what kingdom - who make the choice - man or G-d?

 

The Traveler

[brotherofJared]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

This makes the question even more confusing.

It's really a very simple question - Jesus Christ is the Judge in the Final Judgment.  Nobody else is.  

So, once again the question - when do you believe you get inherit one Kingdom or the other - BEFORE or AFTER Christ makes the judgment?

Sorry. I happen to believe that we are equal participates in that judgment. So it is between Christ and the person being judged, but as any good judge will do, there will be witnesses, some we know and some we don't. And, as I understand the scriptures, we will be surprised and those who will beg mercy on our behalf.

[brotherofJared]

4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

No one else?  Sounds a lot like determinism.

I am under the impression that the plan of salvation has as its primary and over arching principle - Agency!  And that Jesus Christ is our advocate and savior.  So my question is - Who decides what kingdom - who make the choice - man or G-d?

 

The Traveler

It's a joint venture.

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

It's a joint venture.

I have always been under the impression that - especially for those do not end up in the Celestial Kingdom (Glory) - that it is because of their choice, not G-ds.

 

The Traveler

[brotherofJared]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have always been under the impression that - especially for those do not end up in the Celestial Kingdom (Glory) - that it is because of their choice, not G-ds.

 

The Traveler

I agree, but that doesn't supplant the role God plays in judgment. Hypothetically, I believe it goes like this.

Judge: how do you plead?

person: guilty

Judge: are you sure?

person: yes

Judge: let's hear testimony

person: no, please. Living it once was bad enough.

Judge: No. I think you need to hear this

Judge brings in all the people that person did harm too in life. Most of them plead in his favor, God only knows why.

Judge: now how do you plead

person: let me think about it.

and so it goes.

I see it as being mutual... though I doubt every sinner will have the same experience, but since all are sinners, I suspect that most will.

Edited January 20, 2020 by brotherofJared

[person0]

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

The advantage is that what we have here really is the plan of happiness. The advantage is that we can work to bring our lost children and progenitors to Christ because we know it's the plan of happiness. If it isn't the plan of happiness, then you are correct, there is no advantage. But I've experienced that it is, and this discovery came after feigning that I might eat the husks that the swine did eat.

That doesn't make sense to me; you're going to have to explain it to me like I'm five.

The idea of progression between kingdoms would reduce ones motivation to worry about bringing their lost children back to the gospel because they would know that their children can make it eventually and would be able to complacently take solace in that idea.

[Phineas]

3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I believe the problem with accepting this is that it comes close to a doctrine that preaches universal salvation that all will eventually be saved in the Celestial kingdom and that is a false doctrine. When a person turns altogether therefrom... It's over. There will be no progression, but it will be their choice. IMO

You’re right.  It’s close to universalism.  The idea is that all can be saved.  Not that all will be saved.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I agree, but that doesn't supplant the role God plays in judgment. Hypothetically, I believe it goes like this.

Judge: how do you plead?

person: guilty

Judge: are you sure?

person: yes

Judge: let's hear testimony

person: no, please. Living it once was bad enough.

Judge: No. I think you need to hear this

Judge brings in all the people that person did harm too in life. Most of them plead in his favor, God only knows why.

Judge: now how do you plead

person: let me think about it.

and so it goes.

I see it as being mutual... though I doubt every sinner will have the same experience, but since all are sinners, I suspect that most will.

Not so different but as I see what is called the final judgment.

Father: You have been instructed for 15 billion years in the different principle and aspects of the various laws - what have you learned and applied.

Child:  I have learned a great deal about myself and I now have a very clear understanding of the plan of Salvation and the possible Glories of the Resurrection.

Father:  Do you have any remaining questions or concerns?

Child: No - everything has been answered - I am very grateful to my savior that has provided me to learn, experience and now given me power of agency.

Father: So you have made your decision?

Child: Yes - I am ready now to live out eternity under the rule of law in the ______________ Kingdom of Glory.  Thank you ever so much for giving me the power and ability to know and understand what was at stake and allowing me to exercise the power of agency.

 

What I do not believe will happen.

Father:  Stand before me to be judged - would you like to make a statement?

Child:  I so desire to live in the Celestial Kingdom with my family - Pleassssssssssse have mercy!  (Expressed with many tears.)

Father: Nice try but you broke law 1,563,231 section 84,793 by your agency and choice and for whatever reason - again by your agency and choice - did not repent of it.  Therefore you are judged guilty and do not qualify - regardless of whatever you may plea - so therefore suffer and burn for this much spiritual death according to MY judgement.  Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Sucker  - accept the judgement you so rightfully deserve!!!  You have no other choice but to accept my my perfect and unyielding judgement!!!!!  Be gone from my presents - you scum - you low life.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:29 PM, brotherofJared said:

Sorry. I happen to believe that we are equal participates in that judgment. So it is between Christ and the person being judged, but as any good judge will do, there will be witnesses, some we know and some we don't. And, as I understand the scriptures, we will be surprised and those who will beg mercy on our behalf.

You still didn't answer the question... So, you think you get to inherit one of the Kingdoms BEFORE or AFTER Final Judgment?

Edited January 21, 2020 by anatess2

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You still didn't answer the question... So, you think you get to inherit one of the Kingdoms BEFORE or AFTER Final Judgment?

Pretty sure the idea is that the so-called final judgment isn't really final.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Pretty sure the idea is that the so-called final judgment isn't really final.

That's fine if that's what their position is.  Just as long as we all agree there's such a thing as a Final Judgment that decides which kingdom you inherit.  Anything that happens after that is speculative as it is not covered in the Plan of Salvation.  I was just trying to figure out how believing in the "fixed kingdom" becomes "against the Plan of Salvation" somehow.

[brotherofJared]

17 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You still didn't answer the question... So, you think you get to inherit one of the Kingdoms BEFORE or AFTER Final Judgment?

I did. I'll repeat it.

There isn't a timeline. Eternity, meaning forever, has no timeline.

If the point is moving between kingdoms, then it doesn't matter when we leave the spirit world or when final judgment is. We will have been slotted into a world and we get to choose whether or not we will advance or not. That is the point of advancing between glories.

But, in case that's not clear. I don't think it matters whether it's before or after judgment. The whole point is that if we inherit one of the kingdoms, we don't have to stay there if we don't want to.

[Traveler]

Generally I believe it is always possible for a person to repent.  However, repenting is not the only stone in the foundation of Agency, resurrection and the kingdom of glory.  We are told that in order to be in the Celestial Kingdom we must abide and live by the Laws and Covenants of a Celestial Glory.  BTW - this does not sound like a "place" to me as much as it is a "WAY" of thinking and behaving.  I will add something else about elements of the plan of salvation as presented in Genesis - specific to chapter 3 - the last verses.  Most interpret a concept that the Cherubims are guardians to prevent mankind from reaching the Tree of Life.  There are some versions of the Bible that explicitly imply that man must be prevented from reaching the Tree of Life.  A rather lengthily article could be written about Cherubim and the path - but I leave it to the reader to ponder and wonder concerning who in the history of the world and in scripture where man encounter Cherubim in the worship of G-d.

There are both primary and variant readings of Genesis that indicate that the Cherubim take on the role of "Keepers" - that is a gate way - not that is always closed but that insure that those the pass through are prepared and worthy.  Another way of thinking from the ancients is perfect or complete.  I would use the temple and the temple recommend as a parallel understanding.  Temple recommends are not so much to prevent anyone from temple worship as much as that people are prepared for temple worship and sacred covenants.  There is a difference from being forbidden and not being ready or prepared.   I believe this is also in the principles and teachings of being perfect or complete.  Anciently being perfect was not intended to mean never having a flaw - it is meant to mean that flaws have been dealt with and resolved.

I would like to suggest that it is possible to move from one kingdom to another.  That nothing in this regard is forever "fixed".  It does seem logical that someone could not only move upward but that they could also fall from one glory to another.  In fact we have proof of that possibility of a fall in scripture - it is called the fall of man - but there is also the fall of Satan or Lucifer.  The very principle of Agency would indicate that it is possible (regardless of however unlikely) that a Celestial being could fall from a being of Light to Outer Darkness to become a being of Darkness

But there is a very interesting principle of the resurrection.  We are raised to a resurrection of Glory so that our physical body is of a particular type of Glory.  It is also my understanding that we are resurrected in the flesh to stand before G-d at what is called the final judgement.  My question for many that think they will be judged of G-d at the final judgement - how can that be if we are already resurrected to glory?  Something does not fit the general narrative.  I will not pretend to resolve this paradox but rather present the principle for others to conclude how to resolve such with their own understanding.  Except to say that it does not appear to me that many in the religious community have even attempted to address the paradox - let alone to reconcile themselves to truth.

Here is my personal recommendation.  Start now to do all you can to prepare for the Celestial Kingdom.  Not in the manner of pretending but to honor as best as you can and as you understand - Celestial law.  Then prepare yourself by participating in all the ordinances both for your self but your kindred both in your seed and kindred dead.  And finally to love by Celestial covenant - in heart, might, mind and strength.  Then when you have accomplished obedience to the laws, participated in the ordances and kept the covenants - then consider yourself the expert in the finer points of doctrine.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I did. I'll repeat it.

There isn't a timeline. Eternity, meaning forever, has no timeline.

If the point is moving between kingdoms, then it doesn't matter when we leave the spirit world or when final judgment is. We will have been slotted into a world and we get to choose whether or not we will advance or not. That is the point of advancing between glories.

But, in case that's not clear. I don't think it matters whether it's before or after judgment. The whole point is that if we inherit one of the kingdoms, we don't have to stay there if we don't want to.

Well, there is a REASON you inherit a Kingdom... Final Judgment would be that reason.  Christ being the Judge.  It is quite clear in doctrine.  This is not something "controversial".  "If we don't want to" means you don't get to enter that kingdom.  So I'm not really sure what you're saying.

[Vort]

4 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

There isn't a timeline. Eternity, meaning forever, has no timeline.

Then why do you suppose God talks about eternal things in an ordered sequence?

[brotherofJared]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Well, there is a REASON you inherit a Kingdom... Final Judgment would be that reason.  Christ being the Judge.  It is quite clear in doctrine.  This is not something "controversial".  "If we don't want to" means you don't get to enter that kingdom.  So I'm not really sure what you're saying.

Final judgment isn't a reason. It's simply an execution of a decision. As discussed before, I believe that decision is mutual. The person being judged chooses not to advance and then and only then will the person not advance.

If this wasn't controversial, we wouldn't be talking about it. The OP introduces controversy. Sealing families so that we can bring them up with us, introduces controversy. It's not cut and dried. But, it's also not clear how that would work. For that reason, there is a gray area that warrants a discussion. What I'm saying is that if we want to, we still can.

[brotherofJared]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Then why do you suppose God talks about eternal things in an ordered sequence?

What ordered sequence are you talking about? Baptism before the gift of the Holy Ghost? or something else?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, brotherofJared said:

What ordered sequence are you talking about? Baptism before the gift of the Holy Ghost? or something else?

Sure, baptism before the gift of the Holy Ghost, for example. Marriage before childbearing. Lower law before higher law. Line upon line, precept upon precept. All of these things presuppose a temporal order. The very words "before" and "after" don't have meaning outside of temporal ordering.