Progression between kingdoms?


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1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

Final judgment isn't a reason. It's simply an execution of a decision. As discussed before, I believe that decision is mutual. The person being judged chooses not to advance and then and only then will the person not advance.

If this wasn't controversial, we wouldn't be talking about it. The OP introduces controversy. Sealing families so that we can bring them up with us, introduces controversy. It's not cut and dried. But, it's also not clear how that would work. For that reason, there is a gray area that warrants a discussion. What I'm saying is that if we want to, we still can.

There's nothing controversial about the Sealing of Families.  It's a fairly simple concept.

Your thing about "wanting to".  That's pretty much what hell is, isn't it?  Wanting to but not being able to.  Because, inheriting kingdoms is not just wanting to but QUALIFYING to.  It's the paradox of mortal existence - the natural man wants something in opposition to Spiritual Truth and the objective is for us to shed the desires of the natural man to CHANGE our Spirits to be that of Christ's and qualify for the kingdom where such Spirit can dwell.  There are things that require our mortal bodies to fulfill and there are things that mortal proxies can do for us.  But there will be such a time when all is fulfilled and we go about the business of inheritance.  At such time, you can desire all you want it's not going to matter anymore - like, you desire to be with your spouse all you want but if you don't qualify for the promises of the sealing to be fulfilled as your Spirit has not changed to qualify for it, you're not going to have it.

Edited by anatess2
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24 minutes ago, Vort said:

Sure, baptism before the gift of the Holy Ghost, for example.

Yes. These are temporal things that are done in the flesh. Must like birth must come before death.

 

26 minutes ago, Vort said:

The very words "before" and "after" don't have meaning outside of temporal ordering.

Yes. Isn't that my point? Inheriting a kingdom isn't a temporal thing. 

I agree, final is final, but we don't know when final will be, do we? I'm certain that we will live in one of these kingdoms before the final judgment, simply because, as @Traveler suggested these kingdoms seem to represent more than just a place. They also appear to represent a way of life. IOW, we live in the glory in which we are willing to abide by its laws. The same is true in this life. We can live a Terrestrial law, perfectly here and in so doing, we would be living in a terrestrial glory. This is what separates us from the rest of the world. It is represented by greater light. But if we fail to live by the laws associated with this glory, we descend again into a telestial or lower glory.

Right now, we symbolize this progression in the temple, but hereafter, what? We get slotted into a glory and are stuck there? 

The Book of Mormon alludes to the idea that some of our children will perish [as to this life] because of unbelief. To me, this means that despite being taught the right things and having the gospel, they will reject it and "perish in the flesh", meaning lost. But God is merciful. He will restore our children "that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer".

These who perish as to the flesh, having been given knowledge while in the flesh of the truth and rejecting it perished, how can they be redeemed if they get a final judgment based on their life in the flesh? This seems clear to me that we don't get to decide what is a second chance and what is a first chance. It seems that we might have taught our children well, but being ill-equipped, it's unlikely that we really did well. We just did the best we could, sometimes making it worse. But God is merciful. It seems that if one received a "true knowledge of their Redeemer" in this life, then, yes. there wouldn't be an opportunity, a second chance in the next life. But God knows if they did. I have to believe that even if they had knowledge of all things from before mortal life and onward, it would not be enough (mostly because all of that experience and knowledge came before we had a body. Understanding the plan and living the plan are two different things). But having a true knowledge much much more. And these children who were lost, if given an opportunity to obtain that, then why not those who never had it?

Obviously, there is some progression allowed after death or else there could be no salvation for the dead. The key here, again, is that they not altogether turn therefrom.

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1 minute ago, brotherofJared said:

I agree, final is final, but we don't know when final will be, do we? I'm certain that we will live in one of these kingdoms before the final judgment, simply because, as @Traveler suggested these kingdoms seem to represent more than just a place.

That's not what is taught in the Plan of Salvation nor the presentations at the temple.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

That's not what is taught in the Plan of Salvation nor the presentations at the temple.

Really? What are you taught in the Plan of Salvation. References please.

These points, I'm looking for

  • Final is not final
  • We know when final will be
  • we will live in one of these kingdoms only after final judgment
  • kingdoms of glory are only a place
  • where any of these things have anything to do with the plan of salvation.
Edited by brotherofJared
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

There's nothing controversial about the Sealing of Families.  It's a fairly simple concept.

The question is why do we do it if our families lost in this life will be lost in the next?

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Your thing about "wanting to".  That's pretty much what hell is, isn't it?  Wanting to but not being able to.

No. I don't think there's a single son of perdition that wants to dwell in the Celestial kingdom. But we know for sure they can't. That's what hell is. The controversy is over those that aren't in hell. 😉

 

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Because, inheriting kingdoms is not just wanting to but QUALIFYING to

Correct. And who are you to decide when a person qualifies? Where does a say in the scriptures that a person who QUALIFIES for the Terrestrial Kingdom can't go there because he used to be in the Telestial kingdom? Do you have a reference for that?

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

It's the paradox of mortal existence - the natural man wants something in opposition to Spiritual Truth and the objective is for us to shed the desires of the natural man to CHANGE our Spirits to be that of Christ's and qualify for the kingdom where such Spirit can dwell.

Well, for one, we aren't talking about mortal existence. And that may be your idea of the objective for us, but it's not mine. I'm not here to shed anything. I'm here to let the power of God work in me by accepting his Son and his teachings. Whether or not I change is entirely up to God and so far, he's done a pretty good job of making a new me. 

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

There are things that require our mortal bodies to fulfill and there are things that mortal proxies can do for us.

Where salvation comes in, those two things are identical.

 

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

But there will be such a time when all is fulfilled and we go about the business of inheritance. 

The question is when is that time? Do you know? Has God told you? From what I can see in the scriptures, it doesn't come immediately after death.

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

At such time, you can desire all you want it's not going to matter anymore - like, you desire to be with your spouse all you want but if you don't qualify for the promises of the sealing to be fulfilled as your Spirit has not changed to qualify for it, you're not going to have it.

But what if my spirit has changed to qualify for it? It seems that you're saying that it can't or that it won't change after death, which makes me wonder, why preach the gospel to the dead at all if the dead can't do anything about it?

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51 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

The question is why do we do it if our families lost in this life will be lost in the next?

You are worried about the wrong things. You should be worried about whether you will get to [the kingdom of exaltation]. Concentrate on that. If you get there, all of it will be more wonderful than you can imagine.

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I don't think the scriptures would speak of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth if there were a mutual agreement. I don't think Satan is mutually agreeing with his judgement. He seems to be pretty pissed.

 

Edited by Anddenex
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14 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Whether or not I change is entirely up to God...

This is clearly false doctrine. Change is up to us and whether or not we are willing to change when he reaches out. Whether or not you change is up to you, entirely up to you. God doesn't put off your natural man. He provides you with opportunities to put off the natural man, whether or not you do is entirely up to you.

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13 hours ago, Vort said:

You are worried about the wrong things. You should be worried about whether you will get to [the kingdom of exaltation]. Concentrate on that. If you get there, all of it will be more wonderful than you can imagine.

I'm not worried about that at all. I know where I'll be, which kingdom I'll inherit. I have no worries about that at all. Like Lehi, my worries are exactly where they should be. Once partaking of the fruit, he turned to share it with his family. I'm sorry if u dont get that.

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10 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm not worried about that at all. I know where I'll be, which kingdom I'll inherit. I have no worries about that at all. Like Lehi, my worries are exactly where they should be. Once partaking of the fruit, he turned to share it with his family. I'm sorry if u dont get that.

I was quoting President Oaks' first General Conference talk last October, where he told of a Church leader responsing to a concern very much like yours. I'm sorry u didn't get that. Maybe you u should relisten to General Conference.

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6 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I don't think the scriptures would speak of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth if there were a mutual agreement. I don't think Satan is mutually agreeing with his judgement. He seems to be pretty pissed.

 

We're wailing and gnashing teeth here. That experience is not over lost opportunities. Or, it doesn't have to be. We arent told why they are and who is doing the weeping and who is doing the gnashing,  but it does seem that they wont be happy. Could it not be that it's the parents weeping over children who wont repent and children arguing the merits of suffering as Jesus did to get what came so easily to those who accepted the gospel in life? I think that is a possibility.  U might not, but we can both agree that there will be weeping and wailing a gnashing of teeth. We just disagree on the reasons for it.

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4 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

We're wailing and gnashing teeth here. That experience is not over lost opportunities. Or, it doesn't have to be. We arent told why they are and who is doing the weeping and who is doing the gnashing,  but it does seem that they wont be happy. Could it not be that it's the parents weeping over children who wont repent and children arguing the merits of suffering as Jesus did to get what came so easily to those who accepted the gospel in life? I think that is a possibility.  U might not, but we can both agree that there will be weeping and wailing a gnashing of teeth. We just disagree on the reasons for it.

Sure there will be parents who are weeping for children who aren't with them, but the scriptures are pretty clear who is weeping, wailing, and gnashing teeth (all emphasis mine):

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be awailing and gnashing of teeth.
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them out among the wicked; and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

8 And that I may visit them in the day of visitation, when I shall unveil the face of my covering, to appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth, if they reject my servants and my testimony which I have revealed unto them.

91 Even in outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

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10 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is clearly false doctrine. Change is up to us and whether or not we are willing to change when he reaches out. Whether or not you change is up to you, entirely up to you. God doesn't put off your natural man. He provides you with opportunities to put off the natural man, whether or not you do is entirely up to you.

U may think so, but without god it would be impossible to be saved. Therefore, IMO, it is through God that we are saved and not through any works or merits that we do. Our job is to accept him, believe and learn and do (but since we.all.fail.at the doing, we have no choice but to rely on him). I could be wrong but I'm good with it and so far, so is God.

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18 minutes ago, Vort said:

I was quoting President Oaks' first General Conference talk last October, where he told of a Church leader responsing to a concern very much like yours. I'm sorry u didn't get that. Maybe you should relisten to General Conference.

Ur quoting him out of context. The "worry" was about things, not about people. I apologize about saying that I was sorry u dont get that. It was in appropriate.

Specifically, Pres Oaks was talking about sharing a home with her husband's other sealed wife or.will she get her own. The context was, lean not unto thine own understanding but in all they ways trust in the Lord. That trust is what I'm relying on for the salvation of my family. U guys appear not only not to worry about it but that it's hopeless. 

I just disagree with you. It's not hopeless. I happen to believe that God will afford every opportunity to all of his children to accept his plan, even on the day of final judgment.

I'm just sharing my thoughts. U dont have.to believe me or accept my opinion. The OP asked for our thoughts on it. It's not really ur job to fix my thoughts and if it was, so far u guys are not doing a very good job of it. 

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2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

U may think so, but without god it would be impossible to be saved. Therefore, IMO, it is through God that we are saved and not through any works or merits that we do. Our job is to accept him, believe and learn and do (but since we.all.fail.at the doing, we have no choice but to rely on him). I could be wrong but I'm good with it and so far, so is God.

Its not a matter of thinking. It is a matter of knowledge. God provided us with "moral agency" and it is through our moral agency that we either choose to accept or reject. You are speaking now of two different principles/doctrines: change and being saved.

Change is entirely up to us (i.e repentance) as God isn't going to force any change on us. God has already provided the sacrifice in order for us to be saved, otherwise if it was "entirely" up to God as to whether or not we change we wouldn't have verses of scripture such as these;

27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the bflesh; and call things are dgiven them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to echoose fliberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be hmiserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great aMediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

And...

34 Behold, there are many acalled, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their ahearts are set so much upon the things of this bworld, and caspire to the dhonors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson

I wonder if you can see the irony of the connected sentences you provide, "it is through God that we are saved and not through any works or merits that we do. Our job is to accept him, believe and learn and do (but since we.all.fail.at the doing, we have no choice but to rely on him)"

The principle you are teaching leads to the following outcome, If change is "entirely" up to God and there are sons and daughters who are lost and some who are saved, why didn't God then save the others if "change" is entirely up to God? Its God's fault some are not saved because he didn't help them change?

Edited by Anddenex
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1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:
2 hours ago, Vort said:

I was quoting President Oaks' first General Conference talk last October, where he told of a Church leader responsing to a concern very much like yours. I'm sorry u didn't get that. Maybe you u should relisten to General Conference.

Ur quoting him out of context. The "worry" was about things, not about people. I apologize about saying that I was sorry u dont get that. It was in appropriate.

Specifically, Pres Oaks was talking about sharing a home with her husband's other sealed wife or.will she get her own. The context was, lean not unto thine own understanding but in all they ways trust in the Lord. That trust is what I'm relying on for the salvation of my family. U guys appear not only not to worry about it but that it's hopeless. 

Let's test this assertion. Here are President Oaks' own words, completely in context:

I continue with an experience I heard from a valued associate, which I share with his permission. After the death of his beloved wife and the mother of his children, a father remarried. Some grown children strongly objected to the remarriage and sought the counsel of a close relative who was a respected Church leader. After hearing the reasons for their objections, which focused on conditions and relationships in the spirit world or in the kingdoms of glory that follow the Final Judgment, this leader said: “You are worried about the wrong things. You should be worried about whether you will get to those places. Concentrate on that. If you get there, all of it will be more wonderful than you can imagine.”

No, President Oaks was certainly not "talking about sharing a home with her husband's other sealed wife." That was before this remark. You really should relisten to or reread this talk, and maybe all of the last General Conference.

And his advice is timely. Instead of trying to figure out some way to twist the doctrine into a form more palatable for you, you should simply worry about working out your own salvation. If you become such a person, you will find the arrangements eminently satisfiable, whether or not your present opinion of them is positive.

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be awailing and gnashing of teeth.

much like it is here. But it doesn't say why they are gnashing. That activity, just like the activity we're doing now, does not spell out endless doom. Are we not in a furnace now? Are we not wailing and gnashing teeth? Do we still have an opportunity to escape the furnace? Those that were thrown in, were "all causes of sin and all law-breakers" (Matt 13:41 ESV). If one no longer breaks the law, can they escape the furnace? What we are not told is what they are weeping and gnashing about. In medieval Christian times, they were depicted as mindless animals, like dogs in a fight tearing each other apart. I believe that depiction is wrong.

 

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

same as above, same chapter.

But what does it mean in the following verses, 51 and 52? 

“Have you understood all these things?” They said to him, “Yes.”  And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”

What does "his treasure" mean? What does it mean, "what is new and what is old"? And how does it relate to the parables? Perhaps it is that what they understood, is old and being trained for the kingdom, they should recognize what is new. We are taught that we can redeem our children through the sealing ordinances of the temple. We have learned that hell is not permanent for anyone except those who have committed the unpardonable sin and we have learned what that sin is. All others can be redeemed. Just a thought. Perhaps that's what it means.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

8 And that I may visit them in the day of visitation, when I shall unveil the face of my covering, to appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth, if they reject my servants and my testimony which I have revealed unto them.

This one is self-explanatory. That is a big IF. It would have to be revealed unto them or they cannot reject it. This is equal to turning altogether therefrom. It doesn't say when they turned, it just says that if they do, after it has been revealed. That revelation can come at any time in this life or in the next... I'd dare say, right up until the final judgment and I've spelled that out pretty clearly here, even then, it won't be condemnatory, it will be with pleading not to reject it.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

91 Even in outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

Yes. That makes sense. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness, but we know that many of those, most of those, will ascend to the Telestial kingdom.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

That sounds like the final judgment. Do you have a date for that?

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Its not a matter of thinking. It is a matter of knowledge.

Well. You and I appear to know two different things. I suppose they can't both be right. I hope your not.

 

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

God provided us with "moral agency" and it is through our moral agency that we either choose to accept or reject.

I don't know how "moral" got into that, but I believe you are right, it is through our agency that we can either accept or reject it. But if IT, is your idea of what's right... well, let's just say that I don't think that what you think is right has anything to do with salvation.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

You are speaking now of two different principles/doctrines: change and being saved.

I wasn't speaking about either. We're not talking about me. We're talking about people being able to advance from one glory to another. The atonement allows for change. The apostles exclaimed that it would be impossible for anyone to be saved, but Christ told them that with God all things are possible. I know, for example, for years I lived on the edge of the WoW. Some people will disagree with me on my understanding of the word of wisdom, but I came to know, through revelation what it means to me. At the same moment, I changed. It was through no power of my own that that change came about. I have wrestled with the commitment I know enjoy for many many many years, but on that day, no will power of my own brought about the change. It was all God. The scriptures are full of these examples and of prophecies that these things will occur, namely that the law will be written in our hearts. We don't know why we follow the law, we just do. There simply is no other way to live.

At the same time, the way I read the Book of Mormon passage I've been repeating in this thread, it appears that some of our children will not know these things in their mortal life and will reject the truth as their parents have tried to teach them, yet we still do the work for them. For this reason, I believe that when they know, whether or not they lived a celestial life (which only one person ever did) or a Terrestrial life or a Telestial life, they can have the same opportunity that we have had and they can change and be changed and be saved in the same kingdom we have obtained.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the bflesh; and call things are dgiven them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to echoose fliberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be hmiserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great aMediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

And I believe that this is true all the way up to the final judgment day, both in this life and in the next. The ability to choose is not taken away at death as to the mortal body. If that were true, then there would be no reason to do work for the dead. In Lehi's dream, did Laman and Lemuel ever enter the great and spacious building? I don't recall. I don't think they ever did. Are they redeemable? I think they are. In the overall picture, it seems that Laman and Lemuel's role were just as important as was Nephi's role. There needed to be that opposition or we wouldn't have the Book of Mormon today.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

And...

34 Behold, there are many acalled, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their ahearts are set so much upon the things of this bworld, and caspire to the dhonors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson

I don't see where this has any relevance to this discussion.

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I wonder if you can see the irony of the connected sentences you provide, "it is through God that we are saved and not through any works or merits that we do. Our job is to accept him, believe and learn and do (but since we.all.fail.at the doing, we have no choice but to rely on him)"

The principle you are teaching leads to the following outcome, If change is "entirely" up to God and there are sons and daughters who are lost and some who are saved, why didn't God then save the others if "change" is entirely up to God? Its God's fault some are not saved because he didn't help them change?

I do choose to change, but, I'm sure I'm not alone, that I frequently fail. It would be impossible for me to change on my own. It is not by my own power that I do change, it is by the power of God that I change. I want to change, I try to change, but I continually fail and then in the midst of my struggles, change comes through no effort of my own. We will always struggle against evil and fail. That does not make us evil. What we are not able to do, Christ's work will cover it. His grace is sufficient. But I know that any change that I've made in my life has come through the power of God and not through my own power.

What I can do on my own, I do do. But what I can't do, I rely on the merits of Christ, not my own. But I believe, and the purpose of this discussion is not about what I've already accomplished, but what others, specifically my family, who have not had the same opportunity, regardless of being given everything I know to give them, to know what I know, to have the truth revealed to them. I believe, IAW the Book of Mormon passage, that some of our children will fail according to the flesh but are not beyond redemption. I refuse to accept that they can only rise the telestial kingdom. If they accept Christ and want to keep his commandments, there is no reason why they cannot live in the same glory with all those who also accept Christ and keep his commandments.

That refusal may be my downfall, but until someone explains why that isn't true, then I see no reason to free myself from that bond. All you guys are doing is saying that I'm wrong and I'm not even sure you all know what you're saying is wrong. In the end, it appears to me that it is simply coming down to this. That it is me who is wrong. If I say it, it is wrong. 🤣

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Let's test this assertion. Here are President Oaks' own words, completely in context:

I continue with an experience I heard from a valued associate, which I share with his permission. After the death of his beloved wife and the mother of his children, a father remarried. Some grown children strongly objected to the remarriage and sought the counsel of a close relative who was a respected Church leader. After hearing the reasons for their objections, which focused on conditions and relationships in the spirit world or in the kingdoms of glory that follow the Final Judgment, this leader said: “You are worried about the wrong things. You should be worried about whether you will get to those places. Concentrate on that. If you get there, all of it will be more wonderful than you can imagine.”

No, President Oaks was certainly not "talking about sharing a home with her husband's other sealed wife." That was before this remark. You really should relisten to or reread this talk, and maybe all of the last General Conference.

And his advice is timely. Instead of trying to figure out some way to twist the doctrine into a form more palatable for you, you should simply worry about working out your own salvation. If you become such a person, you will find the arrangements eminently satisfiable, whether or not your present opinion of them is positive.

Well, this just turns in to a squabble about nothing. I'm not worried about me at all and I'm not worried about things like "conditions and relationships". Instead, I'm worried about the salvation of individuals I care very much about. Will I be able to reach them after death? Is it hopeless for them? If there is no hope for them, then the sealing ordinances are for nothing.

Sorry, I am going to squabble:

I received some time ago introduces the subject of my talk. The writer was contemplating a temple marriage to a man whose eternal companion had died. She would be a second wife. She asked this question: would she be able to have her own house in the next life, or would she have to live with her husband and his first wife? I just told her to trust the Lord.

That's things and conditions of life in the hereafter. I'm satisfied that the Lord has all that under control. I'm also satisfied that he has the well being of my posterity well in hand and that includes all my posterity and that it will be their choice if they choose to stay in a lesser kingdom. Therefore, it makes sense to me that people can go up and down the ladder between glories and can advance from one glory to another. So far, no one has shown me anything that states the contrary. Bruce R McConkie said that it wasn't but I don't believe him. 

Edited by brotherofJared
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Just now, brotherofJared said:

I'm not worried about things like "conditions and relationships". Instead, I'm worried about the salvation of individuals I care very much about.

So the state of salvation of loved ones doesn't count as "conditions and relationships"?

What, exactly, did you think that Elder Oaks' example was talking about?

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6 minutes ago, Vort said:

So the state of salvation of loved ones doesn't count as "conditions and relationships"?

What, exactly, did you think that Elder Oaks' example was talking about?

Sorry. I can't help you if you don't see the difference. I've already told you what I thought Elder Oaks was talking about. He pretty much said what he was talking about right at the beginning of his talk. The relationships he was talking about were referring to polygamy, eternal marriage and where one will have to live, in the same house or a different one. I'm sure in the portion you quoted, the kids were worried about which parent they would have in the next life. I hardly think it had anything to do about salvation.

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20 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

The question is why do we do it if our families lost in this life will be lost in the next?

Why would you think that?  That would be what we call unrighteous judgment... meaning you're judging your family as lost when you are not the judge.

In any case, we do it because it is what Christ asked of us.

 

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No. I don't think there's a single son of perdition that wants to dwell in the Celestial kingdom. But we know for sure they can't. That's what hell is. The controversy is over those that aren't in hell. 😉

Are you a Christian convert to LDS?  Because that statement is a mishmash of non-LDS Christian interpretation with an LDS one.  It doesn't make sense.  I'm not sure what the smiley means.

 

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Correct. And who are you to decide when a person qualifies? Where does a say in the scriptures that a person who QUALIFIES for the Terrestrial Kingdom can't go there because he used to be in the Telestial kingdom? Do you have a reference for that?

We are not given the authority to judge a person's destiny.  Not even for people like Ted Bundy who was a baptized member of the LDS church.  But we do have the instructions on the qualities that we need to develop to qualify for our inheritance. 

There is no reference for what happens after you inherit a kingdom as a consequence of the Final Judgment.  That's why it's called FINAL judgment.  It's the last one of this eternal round in the Plan of Salvation.  Everything that happens after the fulfillment of the Plan of Salvation has not been revealed and is, therefore, subject to nothing more than speculation.

 

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Well, for one, we aren't talking about mortal existence. And that may be your idea of the objective for us, but it's not mine. I'm not here to shed anything. I'm here to let the power of God work in me by accepting his Son and his teachings. Whether or not I change is entirely up to God and so far, he's done a pretty good job of making a new me. 

This doesn't make sense.  Change is not something God chooses to control.  Change is something we, with our gift of free agency, do.  Baptism, as a basic example, is a change - a change from a life lived by the light of Christ to a life lived by covenant.

 

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Where salvation comes in, those two things are identical.

Not sure what two things you're talking about here.

 

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The question is when is that time? Do you know? Has God told you? From what I can see in the scriptures, it doesn't come immediately after death.

I posit, that if you go to any primary room in an LDS ward and pluck a child out of it who has been properly taught by attentive parents and primary teachers that they would be able to answer this very simple question.

Yes.  God has told us.  It is called the Plan of Salvation.  And that time is called the Final Judgment.  It doesn't happen immediately after we die.  We continue our progression past death in the Spirit World - either in Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison where we continue to gain knowledge of the kingdom of God and have the opportunity to repent and receive the ordinances of the covenant if we haven't yet done so before all the souls are gathered up for the Final Judgment.

 

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But what if my spirit has changed to qualify for it? It seems that you're saying that it can't or that it won't change after death, which makes me wonder, why preach the gospel to the dead at all if the dead can't do anything about it?

Hah.  Maybe I just found where the missing piece of our discussions are.  You might have forgotten there's a Spirit World?  It has two rooms - Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison.  That is before Final Judgment which means learning and repentance are still going on.  Those who have changed to qualify for Spirit Paradise get to teach those in Spirit Prison and call them to repentance that they may change and join them in Paradise.  This is not where we inherit kingdoms.

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3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

much like it is here. But it doesn't say why they are gnashing. That activity, just like the activity we're doing now, does not spell out endless doom. Are we not in a furnace now? Are we not wailing and gnashing teeth? Do we still have an opportunity to escape the furnace? Those that were thrown in, were "all causes of sin and all law-breakers" (Matt 13:41 ESV). If one no longer breaks the law, can they escape the furnace? What we are not told is what they are weeping and gnashing about. In medieval Christian times, they were depicted as mindless animals, like dogs in a fight tearing each other apart. I believe that depiction is wrong.

I am pretty sure the verse specifies why they are gnashing their teeth as a result of them being cast into the furnace of fire. We are not in the same furnace of fire now as this verse of scripture is referring to. This verse of scripture is referring to what happens after death, not our lives right now.

In this life, yes, we can definitely escape a furnace of fire. We are informed what they are weeping, wailing, and gnashing their teeth for. Other scriptures correlate, are interwoven with these same verses (i.e. Doctrine and Covenants 19)

I wouldn't agree with a lot of medieval interpretations. We aren't though reading medieval interpretations, this is modern revelation.

3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

 

same as above, same chapter.

But what does it mean in the following verses, 51 and 52? 

“Have you understood all these things?” They said to him, “Yes.”  And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house, who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”

What does "his treasure" mean? What does it mean, "what is new and what is old"? And how does it relate to the parables? Perhaps it is that what they understood, is old and being trained for the kingdom, they should recognize what is new. We are taught that we can redeem our children through the sealing ordinances of the temple. We have learned that hell is not permanent for anyone except those who have committed the unpardonable sin and we have learned what that sin is. All others can be redeemed. Just a thought. Perhaps that's what it means.

Correct, regarding hell. Hell is not permanent except for the sons of perdition (i.e. Satan, Cain), which is why we have Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial states. The concept of "restoration" is what we should think about. We are raised from corruption to incorruption. We are raised to the state by which we will receive according to who we are. The concept of restoration does not mean a person who is of a Telestial countenance will one day be restored to Celestial countenance. That is opposite of the concept of restoration.

We will receive what we chose to receive, and no matter how much gnashing of teeth, wailing, weeping isn't going to change our countenance from Telestial to Celestial.

Treasure new and old, I don't know. In relation to the other parables given before regarding good vessels and bad vessels is clear. Unless it is saying the same thing as with the fish, then it is more clear. Or the concept of the last shall be first and the first shall be last (new and old). But, I don't know as I haven't had any interpretation from the Spirit and haven't read any interpretation from a prophet.

3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

This one is self-explanatory. That is a big IF. It would have to be revealed unto them or they cannot reject it. This is equal to turning altogether therefrom. It doesn't say when they turned, it just says that if they do, after it has been revealed. That revelation can come at any time in this life or in the next... I'd dare say, right up until the final judgment and I've spelled that out pretty clearly here, even then, it won't be condemnatory, it will be with pleading not to reject it.

Yes. That makes sense. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness, but we know that many of those, most of those, will ascend to the Telestial kingdom.

That sounds like the final judgment. Do you have a date for that?

Well, yes, I think that is the point of the verse. If they have rejected the prophets, the Lord's servants, the Lord will cast them out and there will be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth for those who are cast out. The day of visitation is when the Lord comes again, second coming. So we are indeed given a time.

In part, we really don't have to wait until final judgement. Our bodies (resurrected bodies) will already be the glory/countenance of the kingdom we will receive. This is why I love this verse of scripture, "9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it. Wo unto their souls, for they have rewarded evil unto themselves!"

Even those who died without the gospel, will have a countenance due to their choices in their lives. God, as with the Lamanites, will be merciful. The great thing though, which I am sure you already agree with, is God is truly the only person that knows our countenance and is the only person who would judge properly.

Time = our death. At that time, it is already known to God and will be known to ourselves what kingdom we will receive due to our choices, desires of our hearts, and God's foreknowledge if the gospel was ever preached to us.

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23 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Really? What are you taught in the Plan of Salvation. References please.

These points, I'm looking for

  • Final is not final
  • We know when final will be
  • we will live in one of these kingdoms only after final judgment
  • kingdoms of glory are only a place
  • where any of these things have anything to do with the plan of salvation.

First let me lay out the Plan of Salvation for you.  Then you can pick a section of it that you disagree with me with then I can provide references for that.

1.)  Pre-mortal Existence - this is when God gathered our Spirits (Intelligences) and created for us Spirit Bodies.  God desired for us to inherit all that He has and is but to do so we had to gain knowledge - Right from Wrong, Light from Dark, Righteousness from Sin, etc.  For us to learn this, God created the Plan of Salvation where we enter into Mortal Existence.  We learned of the Plan and we cried out in despair because God cannot dwell where Sin dwells.  Therefore, for us to know Righteousness from Sin, we had to risk our Spirits to Sin, the price of which is Spiritual Death - the complete separation from God.  There was no way for us to come back to God until God presented us a Savior - a God who is sinless who will go through Spiritual Death to pay the price for Sin.  The Savior's atonement for our sin comes with the covenant that paves the path for our Spirits to change so that once we have been cleansed through the atonement we will not sin again so that we may be able to live with God again.  Throughout this Plan, God wills for each of us to change of our own free will and therefore, we have to enter into the covenant of our own free will.  We rejoiced in the Plan and so God instructed the Savior to prepare Earth for the Plan to move forward.

2.)  Mortal Existence - we chose to follow the Plan (some did not) and so we enter mortal existence.  In order for us to exercise our free agency, a veil between Pre-Mortal and Mortal Existence is created that our Spirits may choose according to our own conscience and not God's. Here we learn what we can learn, line upon line, precept upon precept, being able to act or be acted upon through the creation of our Mortal Bodies and the Natural World around us.  We have the opportunity to enter into the covenant if we have gained enough knowledge to do so.  The Savior fulfills his promise to die a Spiritual Death to atone for our sins.

3.) Mortal Death - our Mortal Bodies die our eternal Spirits continue, having learned what it knows, having desired what it desires, continuing on.

4.) Spirit World - according to our knowledge, we either go to Spirit Prison or Spirit Paradise and continue to progress and enter into the covenant if we haven't done so.  Those who have gained knowledge and fulfilled the covenant enter Spirit Paradise and teach those in Spirit Prison.

5.)  Final Judgment - The Savior gives judgment on the state of the Spirits - whether they have changed to perfectly align their will with God's will that they may dwell with God again.

6.)  Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial Kingdoms - we enter into our inheritance in accordance with the state of our Spirits and those who qualify enter into the presence of God where no sin can dwell.

That is one eternal round from a bird's eye view.

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2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Well. You and I appear to know two different things. I suppose they can't both be right. I hope your not.

I don't know how "moral" got into that, but I believe you are right, it is through our agency that we can either accept or reject it. But if IT, is your idea of what's right... well, let's just say that I don't think that what you think is right has anything to do with salvation.

Moral agency is scripture and it is the type of agency God gave us, "78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment."

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I wasn't speaking about either. We're not talking about me. We're talking about people being able to advance from one glory to another. The atonement allows for change. The apostles exclaimed that it would be impossible for anyone to be saved, but Christ told them that with God all things are possible. I know, for example, for years I lived on the edge of the WoW. Some people will disagree with me on my understanding of the word of wisdom, but I came to know, through revelation what it means to me. At the same moment, I changed. It was through no power of my own that that change came about. I have wrestled with the commitment I know enjoy for many many many years, but on that day, no will power of my own brought about the change. It was all God. The scriptures are full of these examples and of prophecies that these things will occur, namely that the law will be written in our hearts. We don't know why we follow the law, we just do. There simply is no other way to live.

Now it appears we are speaking past each other.

I responded to the following statement, "Whether or not I change is entirely up to God."

In response to my response you said the following, "Therefore, IMO, it is through God that we are saved and not through any works or merits that we do."

"Change" and "we are saved" are two principles/doctrines of the gospel which I responded to in accordance to your response.

The second sentence clarifies the confusion. I was simply responding to the idea of change, and how change occurs because we choose to repent and change, and as we choose to repent and change the Lord gives additional strength (grace) to no more desire evil. Alma the Younger is a perfect example, and the angel's words to Alma even more so. If Alma didn't "choose" to stop and change (despite all God did for him), he would never have become a prophet.

The law is written in our hearts by our own desires to keep the commandments, or to recognize that if we continue a certain path we will destroy our soul (not live with our Heavenly Father).

We do know why we follow the law, at least for those who seek knowledge. Much like Nephi knew why he followed his father and the Lord, and why Laman and Lemuel did not know.

I am grateful to hear your testimony of God's love for you and how it changed you. That is wonderful brother!

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

At the same time, the way I read the Book of Mormon passage I've been repeating in this thread, it appears that some of our children will not know these things in their mortal life and will reject the truth as their parents have tried to teach them, yet we still do the work for them. For this reason, I believe that when they know, whether or not they lived a celestial life (which only one person ever did) or a Terrestrial life or a Telestial life, they can have the same opportunity that we have had and they can change and be changed and be saved in the same kingdom we have obtained.

Joseph Fielding Smith has a different interpretation in the Doctrines of Salvation regarding our offspring. He specifies that we may bring our wayward sons and daughters to the Celestial kingdom, but not exaltation. It is an intriguing thought.

I am good with truth. If the sons and daughters of God can progress through kingdoms, then there are a lot of scriptures that clearly teach otherwise. Each time I hear someone say otherwise, it seems to me they are really rubber-banding verses of scripture.

If we can progress through kingdoms, then the whole concept of procrastinating the days of our repentance is null and void. The only purpose then to these verses would be to "avoid" suffering for ourselves, and if we simply can suffer ourselves and still be with God then why choose to be "exactly" obedient? This brings up the Protestant Christian type of Grace. We can do whatever we want in this life, God will beat us with a few stripes, we are all saved anyways -- even if that means we have to endure a time in hell, Telestial, Terrestrial, the lower degrees of the Celestial kingdom until we once again are with God -- exalted.

Why put up with the persecutions of this world, when I can forget Church, forget commandments, live a life of sin and pleasure and still be exalted -- even though I procrastinated the days of my repentance.

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

And I believe that this is true all the way up to the final judgment day, both in this life and in the next. The ability to choose is not taken away at death as to the mortal body. If that were true, then there would be no reason to do work for the dead. In Lehi's dream, did Laman and Lemuel ever enter the great and spacious building? I don't recall. I don't think they ever did. Are they redeemable? I think they are. In the overall picture, it seems that Laman and Lemuel's role were just as important as was Nephi's role. There needed to be that opposition or we wouldn't have the Book of Mormon today.

I agree with choice after death.

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't see where this has any relevance to this discussion.

The relevance was stated above pertaining to the confusion. If God is the only reason, entirely the reason (as you suggested) why we change, why would God say many are called but few are chosen.

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I do choose to change, but, I'm sure I'm not alone, that I frequently fail. It would be impossible for me to change on my own. It is not by my own power that I do change, it is by the power of God that I change. I want to change, I try to change, but I continually fail and then in the midst of my struggles, change comes through no effort of my own. We will always struggle against evil and fail. That does not make us evil. What we are not able to do, Christ's work will cover it. His grace is sufficient. But I know that any change that I've made in my life has come through the power of God and not through my own power.

True, of course we aren't alone. That's what I am referring to. Change is not "entirely" up to God. We must choose ourselves. We may fail, but through the atonement and our choice to accept it we yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and become like God.

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

What I can do on my own, I do do. But what I can't do, I rely on the merits of Christ, not my own. But I believe, and the purpose of this discussion is not about what I've already accomplished, but what others, specifically my family, who have not had the same opportunity, regardless of being given everything I know to give them, to know what I know, to have the truth revealed to them. I believe, IAW the Book of Mormon passage, that some of our children will fail according to the flesh but are not beyond redemption. I refuse to accept that they can only rise the telestial kingdom. If they accept Christ and want to keep his commandments, there is no reason why they cannot live in the same glory with all those who also accept Christ and keep his commandments.

That refusal may be my downfall, but until someone explains why that isn't true, then I see no reason to free myself from that bond. All you guys are doing is saying that I'm wrong and I'm not even sure you all know what you're saying is wrong. In the end, it appears to me that it is simply coming down to this. That it is me who is wrong. If I say it, it is wrong. 🤣

 

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