Progression between kingdoms?


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On 1/23/2020 at 2:49 PM, anatess2 said:

Are you a Christian convert to LDS?  Because that statement is a mishmash of non-LDS Christian interpretation with an LDS one.  It doesn't make sense.  I'm not sure what the smiley means.

Born and raised born in the covenant Mormon. Perhaps some of ur interpretations are just wrong. 

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:49 PM, anatess2 said:

We are not given the authority to judge a person's destiny.  Not even for people like Ted Bundy who was a baptized member of the LDS church.  But we do have the instructions on the qualities that we need to develop to qualify for our inheritance. 

There is no reference for what happens after you inherit a kingdom as a consequence of the Final Judgment.  That's why it's called FINAL judgment.  It's the last one of this eternal round in the Plan of Salvation.  Everything that happens after the fulfillment of the Plan of Salvation has not been revealed and is, therefore, subject to nothing more than speculation.

Since we are speculating then why do keep insisting that I'm wrong?

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:49 PM, anatess2 said:

This doesn't make sense.  Change is not something God chooses to control.  Change is something we, with our gift of free agency, do.  Baptism, as a basic example, is a change - a change from a life lived by the light of Christ to a life lived by covenant.

I didn't say God controls it. I may choose to follow Christ, but let's say that I just can't do missionary work or that inhave issues with the temple endowment that just bug me or I'm married to a person who refuses the gospel. 

What if I can't stop using pornography or coventing my neighbor's donkey or i just dint think my parents are honor worthy? 

I choose or want to choose all the things Jesus would have me do, but for all my efforts my parents just keep reminding me how unhonorable they are and I just cant get it. It appears that according to u, if I dont change it myself, I just wont get to the celestial kingdom.

That is strange idea about what baptism is. A change from living by light to living by covenant?

Luckily, dont need to accept ur views to be a Mormon. If I did, I'd be looking for the door and I'm sure u would help me find it.

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8 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

I didn't say God controls it. I may choose to follow Christ, but let's say that I just can't do missionary work or that inhave issues with the temple endowment that just bug me or I'm married to a person who refuses the gospel. 

What if I can't stop using pornography or coventing my neighbor's donkey or i just dint think my parents are honor worthy? 

I choose or want to choose all the things Jesus would have me do, but for all my efforts my parents just keep reminding me how unhonorable they are and I just cant get it. It appears that according to u, if I dont change it myself, I just wont get to the celestial kingdom.

That is strange idea about what baptism is. A change from living by light to living by covenant?

Indeed, the scriptures themselves mention this very viewpoint:

Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

There's that theology of hope we've pined for so deeply!

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:49 PM, anatess2 said:

I posit, that if you go to any primary room in an LDS ward and pluck a child out of it who has been properly taught by attentive parents and primary teachers that they would be able to answer this very simple question.

Yes.  God has told us.  It is called the Plan of Salvation.  And that time is called the Final Judgment.  It doesn't happen immediately after we die.  We continue our progression past death in the Spirit World - either in Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison where we continue to gain knowledge of the kingdom of God and have the opportunity to repent and receive the ordinances of the covenant if we haven't yet done so before all the souls are gathered up for the Final Judgment.

So u don't know. It seems then that since many will advance from hell to the telestial kingdom that final judgment decides what glory we will remain in. Until that final judgment we can apparently progress.

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:49 PM, anatess2 said:

Hah.  Maybe I just found where the missing piece of our discussions are.  You might have forgotten there's a Spirit World?  It has two rooms - Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison.  That is before Final Judgment which means learning and repentance are still going on.  Those who have changed to qualify for Spirit Paradise get to teach those in Spirit Prison and call them to repentance that they may change and join them in Paradise.  This is not where we inherit kingdoms

Nope. That isn't the missing piece. The debate is all about advancing between kingdoms not from spirit prison.

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, Anddenex said:

I am pretty sure the verse specifies why they are gnashing their teeth as a result of them being cast into the furnace of fire. We are not in the same furnace of fire now

And yet, here we are wailing and gnashing teeth.

 

On 1/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, Anddenex said:

 In this life, yes, we can definitely escape a furnace of fire.

And most.of those who are cast into the furnace will escape too.

 

On 1/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, Anddenex said:

We are informed what they are weeping, wailing, and gnashing their teeth for.

No. We're not told.

 

On 1/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, Anddenex said:

Other scriptures correlate, are interwoven with these same verses (i.e. Doctrine and Covenants 19)

I dont know what u think D&C 19 is about, but I don't get out of it what u do. It is clear from D&C 19 that outer darkness is not permanent and therefore not final. The call is to repent or suffer. I believe that option is open even at the final judgment.

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On 1/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, Anddenex said:

Correct, regarding hell. Hell is not permanent except for the sons of perdition (i.e. Satan, Cain), which is why we have Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial states

If hell is not permanent then why are any of the other kingdoms permanent? Can a person remain in the celestial kingdom if he sins? I think not. U may say that he cannot sin, but that simply is not true.

 

On 1/23/2020 at 2:59 PM, Anddenex said:

The concept of "restoration" is what we should think about. We are raised from corruption to incorruption. We are raised to the state by which we will receive according to who we are. The concept of restoration does not mean a person who is of a Telestial countenance will one day be restored to Celestial countenance. That is opposite of the concept of restoration.

The resurrection is not about restoration. We are not restored. The resurrection is as new as is mortality. Where did restoration enter into the discussion?

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6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

If hell is not permanent then why are any of the other kingdoms permanent? Can a person remain in the celestial kingdom if he sins? I think not. U may say that he cannot sin, but that simply is not true.

Hell is permanent for the sons of perdition. If Hell is permanent for the sons of perdition, then it is easy to also see how Telestial and Terrestrial glories are permanent also. People who are in the Celestial kingdom continue their progression toward perfection through Christ. You understand the difference between a Saint and a Sinner, right?

6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

 

The resurrection is not about restoration. We are not restored. The resurrection is as new as is mortality. Where did restoration enter into the discussion?

Really, scriptures appear to speak otherwise (should be self-explanatory why restoration entered into this discussion):

Alma 41: 2-4 (emphasis mine)

2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every apart of the body should be restored to itself.

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other

Alma 41: 10 (emphasis mine)

Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

Alma 41: 14-15 (emphasis mine)

14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

Helaman 14: 31 (emphasis mine)

31 He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you.

These verses of scripture are all about resurrection and after life.

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

And yet, here we are wailing and gnashing teeth.

Irrelevant. We obviously can gnash our teeth here. The scriptures addressed aren't speaking of now, mortality. They were specifically speaking of life after death. I am not sure why you want to wrest that. But that is your choice.

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

And most.of those who are cast into the furnace will escape too.

No. We're not told.

Not sure the purpose you have in ignoring the obvious interpretation of these scriptures addressed. We are indeed informed in scripture when and why they are weeping, wailing, and gnashing teeth. If you want to ignore it, again, that is up to you.

7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I dont know what u think D&C 19 is about, but I don't get out of it what u do. It is clear from D&C 19 that outer darkness is not permanent and therefore not final. The call is to repent or suffer. I believe that option is open even at the final judgment.

I can see that you don't want to admit what is overtly addressed in these verses. Again, that is up to you. What happens to people who are in Outer Darkness, what are they doing as defined by scripture. If you are having a hard time, let's read the scriptures again:

"therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil."

Scripture is clear, specifically detailing weeping, wailing, and gnashing teeth of those who are cast into outer darkness. Again, if you want to ignore that, that is purely your decision. I can't help there.

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