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Progression between kingdoms?

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On 12/13/2019 at 5:55 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Funny.  I knew some of McConkie's kids and they NEVER mentioned anything similar to this, in fact, everything they ever discussed with me in regards to this matter is basically...somewhat opposite of this.

See @Mores? This is hearsay. However, if we are to believe the OP, McConkie's kid Joseph Fielding McConkie did, in fact, say exactly this. That is not hearsay.

The OP wasn't sure if Joseph Fielding McConkie who authored the book was the son of Bruce R, so I looked it up:

Joseph Fielding McConkie was a professor of Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University and an author or co-author of over 25 books. McConkie was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the son of Bruce R. McConkie and Amelia Smith McConkie.
 
I don't know if the author of the book claimed that Bruce ever made this statement. My understanding of Bruce's position is based solely on his talks. When I first read the OP, it seemed to me that Joseph F was presenting an aspect of the gospel that Bruce would have disagreed with if it were the subject of debate.
 
 
Edited by brotherofJared

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On 12/16/2019 at 1:42 PM, estradling75 said:

Indeed on the matter of Doctrine the church itself has a higher requirement https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

On the matter of heresies evolution has the potential to be just as damaging as progression between Kingdoms.  We have already talked about how if one takes the Progression between Kingdom idea as an excuse to procrastinate the day of their repentance.  This is a  it is a very damaging idea.  If one were to take the Evolution as a reason to act on their base desires and forget that they are a Child of God well I would be hard pressed to find it any less damaging to ones immortal soul.  Thus I see every reason to agree with McConkie classification.  In both cases an individual can hold such a belief personally without harm if they are firm in there understanding of the important parts of the Gospel.  However preaching and teaching such can have very determental effects to the less firm and sure.

The only real difference is that between McConkie's time and ours is that evolution has become the de facto standard  in the world so we had to become more firm in our understanding just to stand in place.  Do not mistake being able to stand firm against the dangerous effects as if there was/is no dangerous effects.

 

 

 

I'm still of the opinion that regardless of this doctrine, people still procrastinate repentance. This doctrine would have nothing to do with procrastination. It would be interesting if Pew research did a poll on the question, if you knew that you could eventually enter the Celestial Kingdom someday in the many eternities ahead, would you procrastinate your repentance and if so, how long do you think you would?

I think most of them would say, I'll make up my mind after I finish procrastinating my repentance for the reason I'm procrastinating now. 

And what would that reason be?

Well, because I like what I'm doing now and I don't wanna stop. Why else would anyone procrastinate?

---

I think the real reason it's not a doctrine is that such an idea would or could be confused with the idea of universal salvation and there is no such thing as universal salvation, not even if we simply exclude Sons of Perdition. There are people if given every opportunity will simply not accept Christ or the Father and don't want to live that kind of life and, I'm afraid, will not be able to get over the idea that some people they hate got into the Celestial kingdom (that is the danger of passing judgment. In itself, it is eternally damning).

Edited by brotherofJared

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9 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm still of the opinion that regardless of this doctrine, people still procrastinate repentance. This doctrine would have nothing to do with procrastination. It would be interesting if Pew research did a poll on the question, if you knew that you could eventually enter the Celestial Kingdom someday in the many eternities ahead, would you procrastinate your repentance and if so, how long do you think you would?

Which is relevant how?  The scriptures are clear on the dangers of disobedience.  Both in doing and in encouraging it. Is it OK to encourage Murder, Torture, Rape, Enslave etc just because it is something some people are going to do anyways?  No of course not.  Procrastination is just as much disobedience as anything else.  People can and do justify their actions in many different ways.  All those justification will be meaningless when we face the Righteous Judge and he calls us on our every action

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Guest Mores
14 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

One. But that doesn't mean it wasn't said.

And? This logic also leads to "Just because Joseph Smith never wrote down dad jokes, doesn't mean he never said any over the pulpit."

You seem to misunderstand my point about hearsay testimony.  I disagree that one degree of separation can "immediately" be dismissed as hearsay.  My position was that with each degree of separation, the level of credibility goes down. 

Even direct witness testimony can be called into question if there are credibility issues, such as bias, ulterior motives, or simple dependability/ability to convey things accurately.

One degree of separation requires many clarifying statements to make sure things were conveyed accurately.  With each successive degree of separation, we find ourselves getting into a game of telephone.  By the time we go to where @Queolby was describing, it was at a point of an urban legend.  Credibility lost.

Your successive posts seem to reinforce an idea as credible, even though it has several degrees of separation from the source.  And you haven't even asked anything about the credibility of the source.  Commonly, this is indicative of a person with a predisposition to believe the statement regardless of the source.  As such, your arguments are invalid.

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2 hours ago, Mores said:

And? This logic also leads to "Just because Joseph Smith never wrote down dad jokes, doesn't mean he never said any over the pulpit."

You seem to misunderstand my point about hearsay testimony.  I disagree that one degree of separation can "immediately" be dismissed as hearsay. 

Then you miss understand my point. I didn't say it should be "dismissed" at all. Regardless, one degree is still hearsay ... BECAUSE it's not the original source. If I'm repeating what I heard and it wasn't the original source, then it is hearsay. But that doesn't mean the source didn't say it.

 

2 hours ago, Mores said:

My position was that with each degree of separation, the level of credibility goes down. 

If that was your point, that is what you should have said. 

No kidding. That's because one degree of separation is hearsay and to add credibility, it has to be backed by more than one witness and those witnesses also have to be credible. Otherwise, to my point, one degree of separation is all that is necessary to make it hearsay.

2 hours ago, Mores said:

Your successive posts seem to reinforce an idea as credible

What source would that be? I agree that someone said someone said about someone who knew someone is not very credible. I don't know that Bruce R ever stated that advancing in glories is true, but we're not ready for that revelation and I'm not adding any credibility to it. Joseph F, however, is another story altogether. It is not hearsay. Anyone can read his book and see what he said. 

I happen to agree with Joseph F and disagree with Bruce R (not that I'm aware that he said anything on the subject directly, but I disagree with his real-life examples which would tend to lean towards no advancement either up or down in glory).

Note: I just wanted to clarify my position because it seems as if you and perhaps others weren't following my successive posts or, perhaps I was too vague.

2 hours ago, Mores said:

Commonly, this is indicative of a person with a to believe the statement regardless of the source.  As such, your arguments are invalid.

🤣

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12 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

The relevance is that this doctrine would have no effect on procrastination.

An opinion unsupported by facts..  And an opinion that many here disagree with.  All based on speculation that pulls one away from the core doctrine of Christ

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Guest Mores
Quote

Regardless, one degree is still hearsay ... BECAUSE it's not the original source.

I never disagreed.  

Quote

If I'm repeating what I heard and it wasn't the original source, then it is hearsay. But that doesn't mean the source didn't say it.

Well, gee.  If that was your point, then you should have said so.

Quote

If that was your point, that is what you should have said. 

I just did.

Quote

Note: I just wanted to clarify my position because it seems as if you and perhaps others weren't following my successive posts or, perhaps I was too vague.

You still haven't clarified your position.

Quote

🤣

Somehow you took out a word from my post, or it happened just between edits or something:

On 12/29/2019 at 3:04 PM, Mores said:

...And you haven't even asked anything about the credibility of the source.  Commonly, this is indicative of a person with a predisposition to believe the statement regardless of the source.  As such, your arguments are invalid.

But thank you for ridiculing what amounts to a technical glitch or typo.

EDIT:  I have to apologize.  I am guilty of a malapropism here.  I thought predisposed meant something else.  You were right to mock what this statement said as written, it is somewhat ridiculous.  But that was not my meaning.

Quote

I happen to agree with Joseph F and disagree with Bruce R (not that I'm aware that he said anything on the subject directly, but I disagree with his real-life examples which would tend to lean towards no advancement either up or down in glory).

I have to wonder what quote you're talking about from Joseph F. Smith.  The one I'm familiar with is:  Notice the portion I emphasized.

Quote

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.

 -- Improvement Era Nov, 1910

You appear to be emphasizing his parenthetical.

Quote

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.

Might I point out the the three letter word? 

MAY

Nothing in the context of what he says states that he's had any revelation to that effect.  He's just throwing in a hypothetical that he hasn't spent enough time to ponder, or pray about, but he didn't want to exclude it because he hadn't spent much time pondering or praying about it.  Do you have something more to add about progression between kingdoms from Joseph F.?

Edited by Mores

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On 12/30/2019 at 4:08 AM, estradling75 said:

An opinion unsupported by facts..  And an opinion that many here disagree with.  All based on speculation that pulls one away from the core doctrine of Christ

I already provided the facts. People procrastinate anyway. Regardless of this doctrine.

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On 12/30/2019 at 10:58 AM, Mores said:
Quote

I happen to agree with Joseph F and disagree with Bruce R (not that I'm aware that he said anything on the subject directly, but I disagree with his real-life examples which would tend to lean towards no advancement either up or down in glory).

I have to wonder what quote you're talking about from Joseph F. Smith.  The one I'm familiar with is:  Notice the portion I emphasized.

I left off the last names because they were the same. I'm not referring to Joseph F Smith, I'm referring to Joseph F McConkie, the author of the book in the OP.

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On 12/30/2019 at 10:58 AM, Mores said:

Might I point out the the three letter word? 

MAY

Nothing in the context of what he says states that he's had any revelation to that effect.  He's just throwing in a hypothetical that he hasn't spent enough time to ponder, or pray about, but he didn't want to exclude it because he hadn't spent much time pondering or praying about it.  Do you have something more to add about progression between kingdoms from Joseph F.?

Since this thread started with a quote from Joseph F McConkie's book, the entire discussion is about what he said. It is the point of the thread. I'm just saying that I happen to agree with him and disagree with his father, Bruce R McConkie. But, having spent some time pondering Jacob's ladder and the angels ascending and descending upon it, could be a representation of the temple endowment, since we are those angels that have descended and will, if we accept Christ, ascend on that ladder. That is what the endowment symbolizes.

Having said that, I'll agree that the message from Jacob's experience doesn't necessarily mean that the option is always available. If it did, then it seems that downward progression is also possible even after the resurrection ... well, I think that would be a possibility and not entirely unthinkable.

The reason I agree with Joseph F McConkie, which I did before I ever heard of his book or his opinion on the matter, is because of statements made by Joseph Fielding Smith and others that seems to have taken a sharp about-face about the time that McConkie came into office. It's been an uphill battle since then to get the idea out of the heads of members of the church that death is not the end of opportunity. 

Packer quoted Joseph Smith on sealing, 

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared--and he never taught more comforting doctrine--that the eternal sealing of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity.

It is the nature of a temple sealing that leads me to believe there must be the possibility of progression. I've read many quotes by the Smith's, Joseph, Jr, Joseph F and Joseph Fielding related to the matter of reaching out to our lost children relying on the promises made having them sealed to us both in this life and in the next, that this means we will not be separated from them forever. There is only one sin that is unforgivable. If they haven't sinned that one sin, then they can be forgiven and if forgiven then it seems unjust to forgive them but not let them live the life they are willing to live (meaning a celestial life).

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3 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I already provided the facts. People procrastinate anyway. Regardless of this doctrine.

By the reasoning you have presented we have the following.

Because people murder... it is OK to encourage them to murder (all our resident law-enforcement personal would like to have words with you if you truly believe this)

Because people fornicate and commit adultery.. it is OK to encourage them to have sex out of marriage.

Because people lie... it is OK to encourage them to lie.

The Book of Mormon is very clear that this kind of reasoning and logic is of the devil.

Therefore when you say... Because people procrastinate... it is therefore OK to encourage them to procrastinate... you are scripturally and doctrinal wrong. You are teaching the doctrine of devils  and you need to repent.

 

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8 hours ago, estradling75 said:

By the reasoning you have presented we have the following.

Because people murder... it is OK to encourage them to murder (all our resident law-enforcement personal would like to have words with you if you truly believe this)

Because people fornicate and commit adultery.. it is OK to encourage them to have sex out of marriage.

Because people lie... it is OK to encourage them to lie.

The Book of Mormon is very clear that this kind of reasoning and logic is of the devil.

Therefore when you say... Because people procrastinate... it is therefore OK to encourage them to procrastinate... you are scripturally and doctrinal wrong. You are teaching the doctrine of devils  and you need to repent.

 

If you honestly believe that if people find out that they can be forgiven for murder, then they will go ahead and murder, then I invite you to rejoin reality and come back from the dark side. There is nothing wrong with the concept of moving between kingdoms after death.

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6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

If you honestly believe that if people find out that they can be forgiven for murder, then they will go ahead and murder, then I invite you to rejoin reality and come back from the dark side.

God clearly disagrees with your assessment.  If giving commandment, laws, and encouragement has no impact as you declare.... then God has been wasting his time and the time of all his prophets since Adam.  I invite you to come back from your prideful ways as rejoin God's path.

6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

 There is nothing wrong with the concept of moving between kingdoms after death.

The Apostle Paul taught that there was nothing wrong with eating meat offered to idols.  He knew what he was talking about... In spite of this he would not partake if it might cause someone else to stumble.  Because he knew his actions and words and behavior could affect others. 

We have already pointed out and accepted that the idea of progression between kingdoms might encourage other to procrastinate.  You are declaring as did Cain that you are not your brothers keeper so you can do what you want.  That is not a good role model to follow.  Paul example is better... exercising forbearance (even when you know it is perfectly fine for you personally) when it might harm someone else.  

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7 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

If you honestly believe that if people find out that they can be forgiven for murder, then they will go ahead and murder, then I invite you to rejoin reality and come back from the dark side. There is nothing wrong with the concept of moving between kingdoms after death.

"...and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell."

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But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. (Helaman 13:38, emphasis mine)

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5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. (Helaman 13:38, emphasis mine)

This scripture and others like it are why I have issues with the Progression Between Kingdoms.   Either this is a factual statement, or part of the Eternal as God explains here https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng.

Either way God has very good reasons using that kind of terminology...  And we should not think we are wiser them him.

 

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I don't know how "official" this really is, but I came across a statement authored by Joseph L. Anderson, secretary of the First Presidency, apparently acting in this official capacity in 1952 (and repeated for some reason in 1965) that claims that there is not official position on progression between kingdoms. Fairmormon references it here, and concludes that the Church has no official position on the topic https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Do_Mormons_believe_that_there_is_there_progression_between_the_three_degrees_of_glory%3F

I have seen rumors that this position has been reiterated in a First Presidency letter in more recent years, but do not have access to those archives to verify or not.

Not sure if that adds anything to the discussion or not.

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On 1/7/2020 at 8:17 AM, Vort said:

"...and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell."

I agree. The devil does cheat souls, but the choice for following Christ is ours. It is good to know that repentance is always available. I see no value in preaching that it might not be or definitely won't be.

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On 1/9/2020 at 12:27 PM, MrShorty said:

I don't know how "official" this really is, but I came across a statement authored by Joseph L. Anderson, secretary of the First Presidency, apparently acting in this official capacity in 1952 (and repeated for some reason in 1965) that claims that there is not official position on progression between kingdoms. Fairmormon references it here, and concludes that the Church has no official position on the topic https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Do_Mormons_believe_that_there_is_there_progression_between_the_three_degrees_of_glory%3F

I have seen rumors that this position has been reiterated in a First Presidency letter in more recent years, but do not have access to those archives to verify or not.

Not sure if that adds anything to the discussion or not.

No official position doesn't clarify the idea that we might move between kingdoms or might not.

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On 1/7/2020 at 9:08 AM, estradling75 said:

This scripture and others like it are why I have issues with the Progression Between Kingdoms.   Either this is a factual statement, or part of the Eternal as God explains here https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng.

Either way God has very good reasons using that kind of terminology...  And we should not think we are wiser them him.

 

I don't see where u get the idea that progression between kingdoms is not possible from D&C19. In fact, the way I read it. It appears to be a slam dunk that it is possible.

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1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

No official position doesn't clarify the idea that we might move between kingdoms or might not.

True, it doesn't help us decide which side of the debate is more true than the other. My hope would be that, recognizing that the Church has no official position would allow us to show grace to each other whether we land on the side of the "no movement" or "full movement" between kingdoms.

I have heard it said that the most contentious debates in the Church are over Book of Mormon geography -- an issue that the Church claims "no official position" (outside of the BoM presents a history of some real people who lived anciently somewhere in the Americas). Some of the most contentious debates I have participated in have been "creationism" vs. "evolution" -- another issue where the Church claims no official position (other than God is ultimately the creator and the Father of our spirits).

Which is not to say that we cannot have opinions, or even strong opinions. Present your ideas and support them with your favorite scriptures and proof texts and GA quotes and theological/philosophical arguments. Allow others to do the same. Ask questions and respond to questions and let the discussion run its course. At the end of the day, allow that we won't all come to the same conclusions, and that its okay that we won't come to complete agreement.

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13 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't see where u get the idea that progression between kingdoms is not possible from D&C19. In fact, the way I read it. It appears to be a slam dunk that it is possible.

Its basic reading comprehension of the scriptural phrase "Everlastingly to late" The fact that you are being deliberately obtuse to the idea that it might really mean "Everlastingly to late" is the problem.

As for Section 19 since I am the one that pointed it out that it might open that door to a more subtle interpretation therefore your statement  is another instance of your deliberate obtuseness.  I never said it was not possible, I said Section 19 shows that God has very good reasons for using terms like eternity, and everlasting, in instances where they might not be they way we would use them.  Even if we disagree with the use of the words we should respect the reasoning and wisdom of the all knowing all powerful creator when he chooses to use them. 

But I have grown tired to defending myself from your gross mischaracterizations of my position and words.  I see no reason (or ability really) to have a discussion when the other side is clearing willing to lie and distort to try to make a point

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16 hours ago, Phineas said:

The plan of salvation makes no sense if there is no progression between kingdoms. Why place a time limit on our progression towards divinity?

I truly don't understand where y'all are coming from.  I'm trying to understand what you're saying so let me see if I can figure out what you think the Plan of Salvation "timeline" is - 

So, when do you think you leave the Spirit World and enter either of the Kingdoms - before or after FINAL judgment?

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