The signs of Christ's birth

[Jonah]

I had some questions about what I read in the Book of Mormon about this
topic.

3 Nephi 1:15,19

And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled, according as 
they had been spoken; for behold, at the going down of the sun there was no darkness; and 
the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.

And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light 
as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, 
according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be 
born, because of the sign which had been given.

When the sun went down at night, what was the source of light that made it appear as if
mid-day?

Helaman 14:5 

And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld; 
and this also shall be a sign unto you.

According to Helaman's account, how was this star different from all the others the
Nephites/Lamanites apparently saw at night while they lived on the American continent
all those centuries?

How is it that the Nephites and the Lamanites saw this star when no one but the
wise men are recorded as seeing this star in the Bible?

The Book of Matthew, chapter 2, makes several references to this star:

"Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are 
come to worship him."

"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time 
the star appeared."

"When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, 
went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was."

"When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy."

According to the biblical record, it seems that the star appeared several times.  First
before they journeyed from the east, and then after they met with Herod.  Why didn't
Herod, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, and others in Israel see this star?

Jonah

[Jane_Doe]

5 minutes ago, Jonah said:

When the sun went down at night, what was the source of light that made it appear as if
mid-day?

As with pretty much all miracles, we don't know the scientific "how" of this.

5 minutes ago, Jonah said:

According to Helaman's account, how was this star different from all the others the
Nephites/Lamanites apparently saw at night while they lived on the American continent
all those centuries?

It's a new star.  It has the same effect in both the eastern and western hemispheres-- same in the Middle East as the Americas.

5 minutes ago, Jonah said:

How is it that the Nephites and the Lamanites saw this star when no one but the
wise men are recorded as seeing this star in the Bible?

The Nephites and Lamanites weren't going off of the New Testament's records (they didn't have them), but rather their own communications and experiences with God.  Just as the wise men in the east, they saw the star and were told it's meaning.

5 minutes ago, Jonah said:

According to the biblical record, it seems that the star appeared several times.  First
before they journeyed from the east, and then after they met with Herod.  Why didn't
Herod, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, and others in Israel see this star?

Jonah

They probably did, but didn't realize it was new and it's meaning.  Frankly, a hundred new stars could appear in the sky and I would no even realize.  The wise men and the prophets of God were studied men and (more importantly) attuned to the Spirit.  

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, Jonah said:

When the sun went down at night, what was the source of light that made it appear as if mid-day?

Very strong aurora borealis caused by the intense radiation from an immense supernova 40-100 light-years away that reached the earth at the moment of Jesus' birth.

18 minutes ago, Jonah said:

Helaman 14:5 

And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld; 
and this also shall be a sign unto you.

According to Helaman's account, how was this star different from all the others the
Nephites/Lamanites apparently saw at night while they lived on the American continent
all those centuries?

It was new.

18 minutes ago, Jonah said:

How is it that the Nephites and the Lamanites saw this star when no one but the
wise men are recorded as seeing this star in the Bible?

The Nephites and Lamanites had better vision that those in the Old World.

18 minutes ago, Jonah said:

According to the biblical record, it seems that the star appeared several times.  First
before they journeyed from the east, and then after they met with Herod.  Why didn't
Herod, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, and others in Israel see this star?

Who says they didn't?

Argument from silence is an especially weak basis from which to propound. "Jesus could not have had a beard, because the Bible doesn't say he had a beard! Jesus did not have two arms, because the Bible doesn't say Jesus had two arms! Jesus could not have had a wife, because the Bible doesn't say Jesus had a wife! Jesus must never have eaten quail, because the Bible never says that Jesus ate quail!"

That the Bible doesn't mention anyone besides the wise men seeing the new star doesn't mean, or imply, or even suggest that no one else saw it. It means only that those who wrote the Biblical account saw fit to mention that the wise men saw the star, for whom it had deep meaning, and didn't see fit to mention that, by the way, any other human being with decent eyesight could also have seen the star if he looked.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

I had some questions about what I read in the Book of Mormon about this
topic.

3 Nephi 1:15,19

When the sun went down at night, what was the source of light that made it appear as if mid-day?

I assume this is a logical question that would result from the passages of scripture provided. What you have read is all the information we have; although, just as anyone else we are free to speculate or theorize as what the light might have been:

1) God is allowing his children to see that he is the light and life of the world. That with his birth, light came into the world that overcomes darkness. Can be even used a good parable.

2) There are multiple suns in our universe that could have been given command to provide light to our earth (but I like #1 better)

3) You can theorize also, try one.

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Helaman 14:5 

And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld; 
and this also shall be a sign unto you.

According to Helaman's account, how was this star different from all the others the
Nephites/Lamanites apparently saw at night while they lived on the American continent
all those centuries?

How is it that the Nephites and the Lamanites saw this star when no one but the
wise men are recorded as seeing this star in the Bible?

As with the sign of Christ's birth being no darkness we don't have any information regarding the size, shape, form, brightness, and distance of this new star. The people were obviously familiar with the stars in the heavens, and if so, then they would be able to tell when a new star appeared. Are we currently able to tell different stars apart? I think so. If we are able to tell the difference between some stars, surely they would have been able to understand the difference also -- only if they were informed of the prophecy. People who are looking are better adept at recognizing the difference in the skies then those who aren't aware or are uninformed.

The second paragraph is an assumption being made from what in the Bible's account. It assumes that since the Bible only specifies the wise men saw the star that they are the only ones who saw the star.

The answer though is really simple with the Nephites and Lamanites. The Nephites and Lamanites saw this star, at least those who were looking, because they had been told (just as the wise men) a star would appear. That is why they saw the star prophesied of: 1) they were informed 2) they were looking.

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

The Book of Matthew, chapter 2, makes several references to this star:

"Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are 
come to worship him."

"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time 
the star appeared."

"When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, 
went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was."

"When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy."

According to the biblical record, it seems that the star appeared several times.  First
before they journeyed from the east, and then after they met with Herod.  Why didn't
Herod, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, and others in Israel see this star?

Jonah

Yes, stars normally appear more than once throughout the year or two or three. Who said they didn't? The record only states the wise man saw, but does not indicate these others never saw the star. I am assuming though the moment Herod was told of the star he probably had people look for the star, and they probably saw the star also.

I assume a better question for you is, why the Bible didn't record everyone who saw the star?

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

1) God is allowing his children to see that he is the light and life of the world. That with his birth, light came into the world that overcomes darkness. Can be even used a good parable.

2) There are multiple suns in our universe that could have been given command to provide light to our earth (but I like #1 better)

3) You can theorize also, try one.

0) The whole super-bright-aurora-borealis-caused-by-a-nearby-supernova thing. You gotta admit, that one really rocks.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

0) The whole super-bright-aurora-borealis-caused-by-a-nearby-supernova thing. You gotta admit, that one really rocks.

Yes, it did. I almost put it as #3 but didn't want to take away from such a witty response.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Jonah said:

According to the biblical record, it seems that the star appeared several times.  First
before they journeyed from the east, and then after they met with Herod.  Why didn't
Herod, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, and others in Israel see this star?

Jonah

A few options to consider: They may not have known which star to look for or that there even was a star; it may have been a visionary star. The bad people weren't permitted to see it; the good people may have seen it but the record does not say.

[Guest Mores]

On 12/10/2019 at 3:31 PM, Jonah said:

When the sun went down at night, what was the source of light that made it appear as if
mid-day?

Let me tell you a story. 

*Please note, if anyone knows the original source of this story, I'd really appreciate it.  I heard it in primary as a child many years ago.  And I also apologize for any errors from having heard it so many years ago.*

A woman (foggy memory --- I believe she lived in England) worked in the afternoon and into the evening.  She rode a bicycle to and from work.  In the evening she depended on lights from people's homes to light her way home.  Sometimes there were few of those lights and she depended on the moon.

This was, however, during WWII.  During nights where there were dangers of bombing raids, they disallowed all lights.  People had blackout curtains in those days.  And she had to depend on moonlight.

As it happened one night, she was riding home when they announced a blackout night.  She happened to get off work a bit on the later side than usual. And, wouldn't you know it, it happened to be a night of a new moon.

She literally had no light by which to guide her home.  She was truly afraid that she would go off into a ditch and die a lonely death.  She closed her eyes (it didn't really make a difference) and prayed for safe passage home.

Within a few seconds, she saw the glow headlights of some vehicle coming towards her, shining from behind the crest of the hill in front of her.  Not everyone had a car in those days.  So, it would be conceivable that it was a government vehicle or something.  And she hoped it was a police car who could help her home.  It was enough light to see the silhouette of the road and nearby obstacles. 

It was somewhat far.  So, she calculated that it would pass her and she would be left alone in the dark.  She decided to try to hail it down so that the driver might guide her home.  She continued pedaling toward the vehicle, wondering who it was.  It only took a minute or so before she realized that it wasn't getting any closer.  It seemed to stay just beyond her clear vision.  And as soon as she got home, the light vanished.

What was the source of the light?  What is the source of all light?

Edited December 12, 2019 by Mores

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, Mores said:

A woman (foggy memory --- I believe she lived in England)

Most appropriate.

[Jonah]

On 12/10/2019 at 6:11 PM, Anddenex said:

I assume a better question for you is, why the Bible didn't record everyone who saw the star?

I believe the Bible records it accurately when it indicates who saw the star, but one is
free to speculate and add other names to the scripture.

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld"

What does that mean?

Cheers.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jonah
added question

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Jonah said:

I believe the Bible records it accurately when it indicates who saw the star, but one is
free to speculate and add other names to the scripture.

The Bible doesn't say no one else saw the star.  It says the wise man did, but it mute in regards to whether or not anyone else did / did not.  

7 minutes ago, Jonah said:

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld"

What does that mean?

Cheers.

We don't know.  It could simply be that it's a new star (those don't ussually appear) or something else.  Scripture doesn't specify.  

 

 

[Guest Mores]

16 hours ago, Jonah said:

I believe the Bible records it accurately when it indicates who saw the star, but one is
free to speculate and add other names to the scripture.

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld"

What does that mean?

Cheers.

I think it means

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld"

All kidding aside, what did you think it was supposed to mean.  I don't see anything cryptic about the statement as it is.  What explanation are you looking for?

[Anddenex]

17 hours ago, Jonah said:

I believe the Bible records it accurately when it indicates who saw the star, but one is free to speculate and add other names to the scripture.

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld"

What does that mean?

Cheers.

It's really not a matter of speculation or adding to as it is more a matter of using one's brain/logic. If an individual told you about a star that represented a long foretold prophecy, would you not look for the star also if they said it had appeared?

I agree the Bible accurately says the wise men saw the star. The Bible doesn't say that no one else the star. This is where you are speculating also.

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld" What does that mean?

It means exactly what it said. A new star will arise. A star that will be recognized because it will be of a nature they have never beheld before. I answered this already in my previous response, "we don't have any information regarding the size, shape, form, brightness, and distance of this new star. The people were obviously familiar with the stars in the heavens, and if so, then they would be able to tell when a new star appeared. Are we currently able to tell different stars apart? I think so. If we are able to tell the difference between some stars, surely they would have been able to understand the difference also -- only if they were informed of the prophecy. People who are looking are better adept at recognizing the difference in the skies then those who aren't aware or are uninformed. "

Are you asking questions like Jim and Gale simply to ask questions (without actually caring for the answer), or are you sincere with your questions?

[Jonah]

On 12/13/2019 at 11:37 AM, Mores said:

I think it means

"And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld"

All kidding aside, what did you think it was supposed to mean.  I don't see anything cryptic about the statement as it is.  What explanation are you looking for?

Nothing in specific, just your opinion.

Cheers

[Jonah]

On 12/13/2019 at 11:59 AM, Anddenex said:

Are you asking questions like Jim and Gale simply to ask questions (without actually caring for the answer), or are you sincere with your questions?

I'm sincere. 

Cheers

[Guest Scott]

On 12/10/2019 at 2:31 PM, Jonah said:

Herod, Mary, Joseph, the shepherds, and others in Israel see this star?

Maybe they did.  Mary, Joseph, and the shepherds didn't write the Bible and as far as we have there are no writings from Mary or Joseph (or the Shepherds for that matter).   Others in Israel (Palestine) did see a "star" during that time period.

People in China, Korea, and the Middle East (including Palestine) recorded a supernova in what has been known as the Aquila Constellation.  This happened (according to the best of our knowlege) on February 23 4 BC.  

Jupiter and Venus had a conjunction on August 26 3 BC and June 17 2 BC and would have appeared to be a bright star.

All of these events have been recorded by others and are known to have happened.   

Any one of these (or something entirely different) could have been the star mentioned in the Bible.   Maybe most everyone saw the star, but didn't know what it meant (the wisemen were  either told or knew of the prophesy concerning the star).  

[Traveler]

On 12/10/2019 at 4:32 PM, Vort said:

0) The whole super-bright-aurora-borealis-caused-by-a-nearby-supernova thing. You gotta admit, that one really rocks.

Tesla had the idea of creating fluorescent light in the ozone - this is slightly different than the northern lights and seems to fit better with what is described in the BofM.  It supernova would seem to be a very bright and new star that would be bright enough to be seen during the day.  There is one problem with this theory - Thought the star could be seen in the East - there is no record in China of such a star - or for that matter any new star and China has very accurate records of anything unusual in the night sky.  I have wondered if a small comet bursting in the atmosphere could accomplish something similar but have not figured out a way to verify such a thing - But China's records are a problem regardless.

 

The Traveler

[Guest Mores]

14 hours ago, Jonah said:

Nothing in specific, just your opinion.

Cheers

 

14 hours ago, Jonah said:

I'm sincere. 

Cheers

Then it would help if you actually participated in discussion.  Example: What is your interpretation of what it means?  Is it not fair if I answer your question that you would take the time to consider an answer of your own?

If you're sincere, do you really just want a live wikipedia to answer your questions?  Or are you interested in a dialogue?  The former is rather bothersome because part of what motivates a person to answer your question is the dialogue that usually follows.  A simple question-answer-end is not fulfilling to a lot of the well meaning people here who take the time to actually write a thoughtful response.

It may be that you have a false impression that people are going to answer all your questions.  In our faith, that is a false notion.  All answers come from God, not man.  So, then, why bother having the discussion or asking any questions?  Because for us to receive revelation from God, it requires that we focus on the right things.  It requires that we spend some time pondering the topic.  For most people, this means having a discussion with people.  A simple question-answer does not accomplish this.  All you're doing is "taking".  For revelation to come to you, it requires that you give something of yourself.

[Jonah]

3 hours ago, Mores said:

Then it would help if you actually participated in discussion.  Example: What is your interpretation of what it means?  Is it not fair if I answer your question that you would take the time to consider an answer of your own?

Hello Mores,

I expressed my belief to Anddenex earlier.  I'll requote and add a bit.

I believe the Bible records it accurately when it indicates who saw the star, but one 
is free to speculate and add other names to the scripture.

As for the Book of Mormon reference - "And behold, there shall a new star arise, such 
an one as ye never have beheld"

I don't know what this means. To me, all the stars in the sky look alike except for
brightness.  It might have been a different color or flashing in nature ... not sure.

Another thing not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, maybe inconsequential, is where
they saw the star - whether it appeared in the west or in the east.

Cheers

Edited December 18, 2019 by Jonah
added extra part

[Vort]

54 minutes ago, Jonah said:

Another thing not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, maybe inconsequential, is where
they saw the star - whether it appeared in the west or in the east.

If you believe that the "star" was something that hovered in the atmosphere or in earth orbit over Bethlehem, then it would not have been visible at all from most New World locations. If you believe that the "star" was actually a star, or perhaps some other celestial phenomenon that existed far from earth and probably outside our solar system, then it would have appeared in the same relative position in the sky (i.e. with respect to the background constellations) regardless of where you stood on earth.

[Guest Mores]

3 hours ago, Jonah said:

I don't know what this means. To me, all the stars in the sky look alike except for
brightness.  It might have been a different color or flashing in nature ... not sure.

Two responses to this.

1) There is nothing else said about it.  So, there is nothing else to say about it.
2) Why is this of such significance that you felt you needed to ask about?

I read that and think, OK, some light in the sky that somehow resembles a star but different in some significant way.  And that's the end of it.

So, I'm asking:  You read that and think... nothing?  No, you had to think something or you wouldn't ask the question.  This is what I'm asking for.  SOMEthing went through your mind.  If nothing went through it, what drove the question?  If it was a simple, "I wonder what that would have been like?" then that was at least something you can share.

Please note:  I'm not presenting these thoughts as an interrogation.  I'm asking these questions to get you to try to think for yourself in a sort of Socratic dialogue and (if you feel like it) share your thoughts with us.

So, you said the thought was,"All stars are pretty much the same.  So, how was this different?"  Ok.  We've answered that.  "We don't know".  But it could have been brightness.  It could have been position.  It could have been flashy or colored. It could have been...

You're asking us to speculate.  So, I'd invite you to speculate.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Mores

[Jonah]

On 12/18/2019 at 3:00 PM, Mores said:

You're asking us to speculate.  So, I'd invite you to speculate.

Earlier I speculated on a different color star or a flashing one.  This one could also
be plausible.

[Jonah]

On 12/18/2019 at 12:49 PM, Vort said:

If you believe that the "star" was something that hovered in the atmosphere or in earth orbit over Bethlehem, then it would not have been visible at all from most New World locations. If you believe that the "star" was actually a star, or perhaps some other celestial phenomenon that existed far from earth and probably outside our solar system, then it would have appeared in the same relative position in the sky (i.e. with respect to the background constellations) regardless of where you stood on earth.

Matthew 2:9 seems to depict a star that moved and that movement led the wise men
to find the exact spot where Jesus was.

Do you think this was the same star the Book of Mormon mentions?

Jonah

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Matthew 2:9 seems to depict a star that moved and that movement led the wise men
to find the exact spot where Jesus was.

Do you think this was the same star the Book of Mormon mentions?

Jonah

That sounds like "Bit" from Tron or possibly "Cursor" from Automan.  That may sound funny.  But that seriously came to my mind as I read your description along with the verbiage in the scriptural reference.

Who knows?  Maybe?

[Vort]

4 hours ago, Jonah said:

Matthew 2:9 seems to depict a star that moved and that movement led the wise men to find the exact spot where Jesus was.

Yep. Funny star, like nothing else I've ever heard of. I don't know what to make of that description, except that maybe it was either a misunderstanding of what happened or a mistranscription of the original record. I'm not fond of using such excuses, but I don't know what else to make of Matthew's otherwise-unattested description.

4 hours ago, Jonah said:

Do you think this was the same star the Book of Mormon mentions?

Yes.