Is there truth to Calvinism?


Queolby
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Recently I've been studying a little bit on Calvinism. And some of that theology is tempting to believe in but then most of it is grotesque and satanic. For example the good part that is actually tempting to believe in is 'God is in control' but do LDS actually believe this 'cause it seems to infringe upon agency. Another one is God give me all the good things that I have, and all the bad things are because of God because he's trying to teach me things. this is tempting to believe because we LDS teach this already but I have always been confused by it because how can God do this and respect our agency? How can God's plan have his particular outcome without controlling everything? And this is why it's tempting to believe in some of Calvinism. This would actually help me be more grateful day to day because God 'programmed' it to happen to me.

 

The bad thing that I hate about Calvinism is that God is like an author who writes a book and we are his characters and he decides every aspect of our life and the outcome of our life and we have no choice in the matter. Also Calvinism makes it sound like God created robots and programmed some to love him and worship him and to come unto him and programmed others to go to hell, be bad , murder, rape etc. God didn't create robots! It's like me creating a robot wife and programming it to love me and to do certain things for me. That's sad.

 

I would appreciate your thoughts perhaps share some scripture to support your opinions.

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My thoughts come more from my experiences being a parent.

There are times I absolutely know what my kid is going to do.  I know this because I know my kid and I know the situation and I can predict how my kid will respond to that situation.

Does my knowledge rob my kid of agency?  No.  Does my knowledge limit my kid's choices?  No.

Does this knowledge give me power and the ablity to change things? Yes... yes it does.  Can my actions limit my kid's choices or options?  Yes it can. Can my actions rob my kid of their agency?  Depends on how forceful the action is... usually not.

With this knowledge and power am I responsible for the actions I take or do not take?  Yes absolutely.  Does this make me responsible for the actions of my child? Only if my action was of the forceful variety that took their agency. (Or they are not yet accountable and I have not taught them properly).

Unlike my limits as a flawed person and parent.. God always acts in our best interest (as he sees it) and is the best supporter of our agency anywhere, while knowing and planning for what we will do.

 

Edited by estradling75
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My thinking is influenced by Joseph Smith’s teaching that all things before God are “one eternal now”.  God knows the future, not necessarily because He determines it in every circumstance, but because He is is merely watching it unfold in (to Him) real time.  The fact that He sees me dying on (say) January 1, 2060 doesn’t mean He’s making me die on January 1, 2060; any more than the fact that I see my daughter stealing a cookie from the cookie jar right now means that I’m making her steal the cookie right now.   

Individual agency still governs; God just happens to be watching our past and present and future choices unfold with a perfect and eternal vision.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My thinking is influenced by Joseph Smith’s teaching that all things before God are “one eternal now”.  God knows the future, not necessarily because He determines it in every circumstance, but because He is is merely watching it unfold in (to Him) real time.  The fact that He sees me dying on (say) January 1, 2060 doesn’t mean He’s making me die on January 1, 2060; any more than the fact that I see my daughter stealing a cookie from the cookie jar right now means that I’m making her steal the cookie right now.   

Individual agency still governs; God just happens to be watching our past and present and future choices unfold with a perfect and eternal vision.  

For now, this is pretty much the model I use. I think it's deficient, but I'm not sure exactly how it's deficient, and it works better than any other model I know of or that I have ever come up with. Consider it the Ptolemaic epicycle model of God's omniscience.

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There is no truth in Calvinism-specific doctrines.  The view of God they propose is the exact same plan Lucifer was cast out for except two features.  Lucifer planed to save all people, and Calvinism view only saves some, the rest he created (because they weren't pre-existent ) to be doomed.  There is no growth under such a regime, no becoming like God, no real love, just forced prison for all (whether that's a nice prison or a burning one).   

2 hours ago, Queolby said:

 How can God's plan have his particular outcome without controlling everything? And this is why it's tempting to believe in some of Calvinism. This would actually help me be more grateful day to day because God 'programmed' it to happen to me.

That is the temptation for Lucifer's and Calvin's ideas: we'll take care of everything for you- nothing is your fault, no responsibility.  It is tempting, hence a third of Heaven's host following Lucifer/Satan before this life and others falling to that temptation.  

2 hours ago, Queolby said:

  Also Calvinism makes it sound like God created robots and programmed some to love him and worship him and to come unto him and programmed others to go to hell, be bad , murder, rape etc. God didn't create robots! It's like me creating a robot wife and programming it to love me and to do certain things for me. That's sad.

Bingo

 

As to how God can be sure of what will happen: He knows His children.  He knows what they will choose to do.  He doesn't need to program them or force them, He just knows them and truly loves them.  

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If one has as a foundational belief in creation ex-nihilo, then the Calvinistic belief in predestination/determinism is the only logical conclusion.  This is not limited to Christian based faiths.  If one believes that a single deity is the creator from nothing of all things in existence, then said creator can only be relinquished of responsibility of the actions of its creations if the deity is not omniscient.  In Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, God is understood to be an omniscient being; this means that if He created (from nothing) our intelligence, personality, and individuality, being omniscient, He would be responsible for our actions.  How?  Because having all knowledge in advance of something over which He has complete control, makes him responsible for the outcome; He could have made us with a different personality, to where we would use our gift of agency to make the right choice 100% of the time.  Likewise, our agency would not truly be real because, being the creator of all aspects of our sentience would indicate that not only did God create us knowing every action we would ever take, but also could have created us differently, which would have resulted in our 'choices' being different.

The belief in the eternal identity of man, as is taught in the Restored Gospel, in conjunction with belief in creation ex-materia, is the only way one can logically establish the reality of the individual free agency of man.

My perspective.

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9 hours ago, Queolby said:

Recently I've been studying a little bit on Calvinism.

God is in control.

The Lord put us on this earth for us to "act for ourselves" and not "to be acted upon."

How many times have you said,"That person MAKES me so angry." ?  Think about it.  One can have the perspective that "I have a certain emotional makeup. And given a mixure of my emotional makeup and certain aggravating circumstances, the natural result is to become angry."

This seems perfectly reasonable doesn't it?  Yet, growing up, I was always told that "No one MAKES you angry.  You always choose to be angry."  As I child, it was wisdom I simply didn't understand or accept.  But as I've grown older and wiser, the more I've grown to understand how profoundly ponderous this principle is.  This is a lesson I try pass onto my children.  And they likewise find it a difficult concept to accept.  Yet, the older ones are coming to understand and accept it.

Here is what I did not understand as a child:

There is something within us that allows for choice, no matter what.  But very often we simply don't exercise that power within us.  Without activating that power, you're absolutely right, we have no choice.  We may as well be a conglomeration of chemical reactions that will act like one domino following another.  No thought. No choice.  Simply a mechanical reaction following physical laws like any other machine, animal, or even inanimate object.  And as long as we remain in that state, we are predestined. God has already set it in motion in a very deistic mechanism.

But for those who can find it within themselves to invoke that power of choice, we find a tremendous freedom.  And the more powerful the forces that would drive the more "reactionary" responses from us, the more freedom we experience when we simply choose otherwise.  That is the power of choice.  That is the spark of the divine within each of us.  That is the part that must be allowed to grow and develop.  That is what the Pearl of Great Price describes as "Intelligence".

There have been some sins I've been struggling with all my life.  But there is one in particular that I have recently made tremendous strides in overcoming.  I had to really ponder what I had been doing differently.  Had I prayed more earnestly?  Had I been filling my days anxiously pursuing a good cause?  Had I received a greater portion of the Spirit the past while? 

The simple answer that I'm sure you simply will not accept is this:  I simply chose not to sin.  I have always had a choice my whole life.  But I always chose to give in.  Recently, I've simply chosen not to.  That's all.  Nothing else changed.  It is a startling realization of something so simple and straight forward that I find myself unable to believe it is really this simple.  But it is so.

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There is an irony that just about everyone here--including myself--come from the opposite end of the Christian theological spectrum. However, I do believe "holy envy"--appreciating the positive aspects of other spiritual practices--is healthy. So...I love the overarching truth of Calvinism: The Sovereignty of God. One does not see the errors of my faith--be it televangelists, fake faith healers, cheap attempts at using worldly means to attract greater crowds, etc. because Calvinists tend to be so respectful of God. Also, when the question "Why not?" gets asks, Calvinists will readily accept, "Because God said no." Also, Calvinists tend to  value and excel at education. They mostly set a great Christian example. It may be that no one can worship quite as devotedly as a Calvinist. They recognize so deeply the awesomeness of God and the depravity of humanity, thus are so grateful. I attended a Presbyterian college, and went with quite a theological chip on my shoulder. I thought, at 18, that the school would be full of compromised liberals. I found a different kind of discipleship and devotion I came to respect. So, sure, there is truth in Calvinism.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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On 12/11/2019 at 9:27 AM, estradling75 said:

My thoughts come more from my experiences being a parent.

There are times I absolutely know what my kid is going to do.  I know this because I know my kid and I know the situation and I can predict how my kid will respond to that situation.

Does my knowledge rob my kid of agency?  No.  Does my knowledge limit my kid's choices?  No.

Does this knowledge give me power and the ablity to change things? Yes... yes it does.  Can my actions limit my kid's choices or options?  Yes it can. Can my actions rob my kid of their agency?  Depends on how forceful the action is... usually not.

With this knowledge and power am I responsible for the actions I take or do not take?  Yes absolutely.  Does this make me responsible for the actions of my child? Only if my action was of the forceful variety that took their agency. (Or they are not yet accountable and I have not taught them properly).

Unlike my limits as a flawed person and parent.. God always acts in our best interest (as he sees it) and is the best supporter of our agency anywhere, while knowing and planning for what we will do.

 

Very similar to this, but for my perspective, I'd say these kids are those that are leaving home and going to college.

I still knew how my kids would do in college in general and what many of their choices would be.  My knowledge of this didn't abridge their freedom at all (and in fact, I couldn't have interfered even if I wanted to at that point for the most part).  It was time for them to make their own decisions and decide for themselves what they would be and what they would do with the rest of their lives.  Most of what they chose did not surprise me and was already expected by me.  

There were a few surprises, but then, I'm a mere mortal while the Father is not.

I would also think that there are some things we blame the Father for which are not actually due to him.  We forget that we are in the middle of an active war.  The War in Heaven did not stop and is still ongoing.  Our enemy is still out there and greatly desires to either tempt us away from salvation and exaltation, or if that proves impossible, to make us as miserable as himself.  I sometimes wonder if some of the terrible things that happen in this life are due to his meddling more than anything else.

Still, as he is ALSO a child and creation of our Father, he, just as we do, has a measure of forbearance until the day of judgment.  Thus, he is allowed to do these things currently, until the day of his judgment comes.  

Thus, just as our kids at the university or leaving home also have those that tempt them among their peers, so we do.  Just as they have obstacles tossed up against them by others, so we do also do.

That does not mean our Father does not love us, but this is a necessary step for us to learn to be able to govern ourselves as adults later on.

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On 12/11/2019 at 8:49 AM, Queolby said:

Recently I've been studying a little bit on Calvinism. And some of that theology is tempting to believe in but then most of it is grotesque and satanic. For example the good part that is actually tempting to believe in is 'God is in control' but do LDS actually believe this 'cause it seems to infringe upon agency. Another one is God give me all the good things that I have, and all the bad things are because of God because he's trying to teach me things. this is tempting to believe because we LDS teach this already but I have always been confused by it because how can God do this and respect our agency? How can God's plan have his particular outcome without controlling everything? And this is why it's tempting to believe in some of Calvinism. This would actually help me be more grateful day to day because God 'programmed' it to happen to me.

 

The bad thing that I hate about Calvinism is that God is like an author who writes a book and we are his characters and he decides every aspect of our life and the outcome of our life and we have no choice in the matter. Also Calvinism makes it sound like God created robots and programmed some to love him and worship him and to come unto him and programmed others to go to hell, be bad , murder, rape etc. God didn't create robots! It's like me creating a robot wife and programming it to love me and to do certain things for me. That's sad.

 

I would appreciate your thoughts perhaps share some scripture to support your opinions.

If it is accepted that G-d is Omnipotent "All Powerful" and that all things were created from nothing (ex nihilo) then Calvinism is the only possible logical conclusion.  This is not about scripture but rather logic and the interpretation of scripture. 

 

The Traveler

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