BoM Map: strange but interesting


Jamie123
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I've just come across this map which doesn't make much sense to me. My understanding was that Lehi travelled eastward after leaving Jerusalem, crossed the Indian and Pacific oceans before landing somewhere in Central America. However, this map has him landing somewhere in northern Florida, meaning that he (i) actually travelled west (through Egypt) and set sail from somewhere off the west African coast and crossed the Atlantic, (ii) initially travelled east but then sailed south and around the Cape of Good Hope before crossing the Atlantic, or (iii) crossed the Pacific (as I had previously thought), before sailing south around South America (either around Cape Horn, or else through the Magellan strait) and then north again - which doesn't make a lot of sense at all.

000-moronis-America-Travel-Map-2.jpg-pag

Edited by Jamie123
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I have yet to find a specific explanation of where everything too place that has made perfect sense to me. So far, the best explanation I can find are some of the  South American models. There is an interesting interview between Joe Rogan and and a journalist Graham Hancock that  paints a positive picture for the South America model. Worth a watch.

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Well, obviously it makes a lot more sense for Lehi and company to sail up the Red Sea, pass through the Suez canal, sail out of the Mediterranean through the straight of Gibraltar, and then west and south to Florida.

The other option is they sailed east across the Pacific, and went through the Panama canal to reach Florida.

Easy peasy

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

Well, obviously it makes a lot more sense for Lehi and company to sail up the Red Sea, pass through the Suez canal, sail out of the Mediterranean through the straight of Gibraltar, and then west and south to Florida.

The other option is they sailed east across the Pacific, and went through the Panama canal to reach Florida.

Easy peasy

Hey! 

Just because something doesn't exist at the historical timeline, doesn't make it impossible, bub!  They could have been ...  caught-in-a-temporal-anomaly at-the-very-moment-they-needed-to-cross-vast-expanses-of-land and used those canals at-the-very-moment-in-the-future-where-they-happened-to-be-unoccupied only-to-be-returned-to-their-present. AND they-never-even-thought-about-recording-such-an-experience (twice) because they happened-to-be-sleeping-as-they-navigated-close-to-land-through-a-strait.

Hah!  Didn't think of that did ya!?!

:whistling:

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Speculation: Stuff we guess about, that might be right or wrong.

Salvation Requirements: A short list of items that does not include "being correct on speculative things".

Things tend to be just peachy, until someone thinks one has to do with the other.  Then folk start yellin' at each other and opining about how Christian the other guy is, and nonsense ensues.

 

 

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I don't see why there must be a "heartland only" or "Central American Only" model.  I have no problem thinking that there was a good amount of migration in the 1000 year period that the BoM took place.  There were at least two places where MAJOR migration is specifically mentioned.  We have no idea how far those went -- or in which direction.

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40 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

It's all speculation and really doesn't make one whit of difference to my testimony. 

 

That said, I'm partial to the heartland model.  It makes more sense to me.

I kind of agree but am of a different mind.  Until I am convinced of something - I remain impartial.    I remain unconvinced.

 

The Traveler

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6 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I've just come across this map which doesn't make much sense to me. My understanding was that Lehi travelled eastward after leaving Jerusalem, crossed the Indian and Pacific oceans before landing somewhere in Central America. However, this map has him landing somewhere in northern Florida, meaning that he (i) actually travelled west (through Egypt) and set sail from somewhere off the west African coast and crossed the Atlantic, (ii) initially travelled east but then sailed south and around the Cape of Good Hope before crossing the Atlantic, or (iii) crossed the Pacific (as I had previously thought), before sailing south around South America (either around Cape Horn, or else through the Magellan strait) and then north again - which doesn't make a lot of sense at all.

000-moronis-America-Travel-Map-2.jpg-pag

The Trade winds will take a ship from Arabia, around Africa and right into the Gulf of Mexico. It makes more sense than sailing across the Pacific, against the trade winds. 

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18 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

The Trade winds will take a ship from Arabia, around Africa and right into the Gulf of Mexico. It makes more sense than sailing across the Pacific, against the trade winds. 

I believe westerlies mostly prevail around the southern tip of Africa but on the whole I think you're probably right. 

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52 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I hope you mean on the speculation part.

It is speculation - that I agree.  But to me speculation is in essence trying to put the glass slipper on the ugly stepsister.  Research and assumption is different and is an effort to consider and explorer.   All of which is open to suggestion and information to support or to disprove; which can include possibilities and probabilities.  

Also, I am an amateur archaeologist - all my research is second sourced.   And I have not received any what I consider as personal revelation on the subject.  I was thinking that you are suggesting that there are a lot of more important things to study - and, for me, that sums it all up.

 

The Traveler

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19 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I believe westerlies mostly prevail around the southern tip of Africa but on the whole I think you're probably right. 

You are correct and the book seems to talk about these Westerlies. ;)

1 Nephi 18:12-14

12 And it came to pass that after they had bound me insomuch that I could not move, the compass, which had been prepared of the Lord, did cease to work.

13 Wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship, insomuch that there arose a great storm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were driven back upon the waters for the space of three days; and they began to be frightened exceedingly lest they should be drowned in the sea; nevertheless they did not loose me.

14 And on the fourth day, which we had been driven back, the tempest began to be exceedingly sore.

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23 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I believe westerlies mostly prevail around the southern tip of Africa but on the whole I think you're probably right. 

The thing to keep in mind is that MOST of the ideas that are prevalent today really have no basis in fact, but instead are complete guesses.  The best laid idea is from the statement that Nephi states that he went East in their journey over several years.  Some take it that this means they went into Saudi Arabia in a few months got to the South End of Arabia (regardless that this is a VERY long distance) and then took 8 years to travel less than half that distance after that (which beggers the imagination, much less many questions).

I posit that they went in a South Easterly direction as Nephi States, but figure it was more realistic to the travels of the day and time, traveling from Jerusalem to the northern borders of the Red Sea, and from there due east which would have taken them across Asia.

The problem with the former theory is that there are no routes from the South Eastern tip of Saudi Arabia to the Americas.  It is, as you point out, not likely, but MORE likely that they sail around the tip of Africa and go Westward than it is that they could actually make it heading Eastward across the seas from there.  The Winds AND currents are against them.  If they left from the most Eastern part of Asia, or parts of the Eastern Coast of Asia it is probable they could have made it.

On the otherhand, ALL of these are just speculations with no evidence or even ideas that they occurred.  We have no idea where they actually travelled or went.  Joseph Smith is said to have inferred they went via Saudi Arabia but I have not read the actual sources that are traceable back to him on this.

This same idea is also true for the Central America Theories that place the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations in the Yucatan or anywhere else in that area.  There is actually no evidence of this and the evidence we have found there actually points to civilizations that really do not line up with what the Book of Mormon talks about.

Everything is twisted out of what it actually shows to try to make things match up for Book of Mormon scholars who try to place the Book of Mormon in that small geographic region.

Basically, it is a complete guess out of nothing.  An individual many years ago (that some feel has actually been discredited with their original theories) felt that this was so and went on expeditions to try to prove it.  No actual evidence of a Nephite or Lamanite civilization that is peer approved or accepted by a Non-LDS scholarly community exists.

The Heartland map you see above is based a LITTLE on some facts, but not many.  More than the Central America Model at least.  These are NOT archealogical or physical evidence, but evidence from hearsay...or rather what someone said rather than any other actual evidence.  This person who said this was Joseph Smith, though that is not acceptable evidence for the Non-LDS scholarly community.

Joseph DID talk about the Hill Cumorah.  We know, we know where it is.  He also talked about Zarahemla and it's location.  He even said where it was, which is why the map probably shows it's proximity to Nauvoo.  These two items do not correlate with the Central American model and why the Central American theorist thus have to basically claim that there were two Hill Cumorahs (and unless they ignore Joseph Smith...two Zarahemlas as well).

Now, Joseph ALSO referred to the land they currently were at throughout Illinois and Ohio that it was the land that the Nephites and Lamanites occupied when they were alive and that they inhabited the entire continent/land (one could take that to mean North and South America, or could just mean North America, or perhaps just the land in the area where the Saints were currently occupying...he wasn't clear).

All those statements do not seem to correlate with the Central American theory regarding where the Nephites and Lamanites lived and dwelt.  The heartland model you see in the map above may also not be all that satisfying.  Historically, it also does not seem to correlate with Book of Mormon Peoples...but I find it more acceptable than the Central American theory speaking personally.

In truth, we do not have any real evidence of where they lived or dwelt.  Anything and everything is pure speculation. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the Book of Mormon Geography that people use in references to try to figure out similarities between the Americas and the Nephite Civilization comes from BEFORE the great changes prior to the Lord's coming to America.  Right before he came the entire landscape was changed to a degree that one could claim it became unrecognizeable.  Moutains were raised where there were none while Mountains that existed were tossed down.  Waters came in to cover lands while lands were raised up where none were before. 

In truth, the only real basis we can really look to is the Book of Mormon (the actual book in the Book of Mormon which is called Mormon) for any real relation to what the geography may have been after that, and there is very little to go off of in that regard).

Edited by JohnsonJones
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On 12/17/2019 at 11:42 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I posit that they went in a South Easterly direction as Nephi States, but figure it was more realistic to the travels of the day and time, traveling from Jerusalem to the northern borders of the Red Sea, and from there due east. . .

You could be right. However, this man has been walking since 2013 and has only made it to Bangladesh so far, and he is just one person. https://www.nationalgeographic.org/projects/out-of-eden-walk/the-journey/chapters/5-riverlands/?sort_dir=desc

 

The rest of your argument is based in logic, so be careful or the BYU professors, many that make a lot of extra money providing tours of Central and South America, will have your head. ;)

download.jpg.2282bab44810dfc41eb7780c7f18fbb1.jpg

I am currently reading this book and it is really shedding a lot of light on how little we really know of the America's. There is evidence of a massive civilization in the Amazon long before the rain forest. We simply do not have the evidence to make an informed decision regarding the America's.

The Book of Mormon is a true record and it's purpose is not to teach us geography but to bring us closer to Christ. I am keeping my mind open regarding locations, but the only thing we know for certain is this:

Quote

Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth.

 

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein
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