selek Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Good Morning, All!My name is Selek, and many of you know me from the other boards. Please don't hold that against me.I'm a fourteen year member, a convert to the Church. I am divorced with four children, but I still stay extremely close with my once-and-future bride.While it has been sufficiently cliched to be almost stereotypical- in my particular case, the phrase, "I know this Church is true" is no idle boast. Everything I have seen in my life, all of my travels, all of my experiences testify of God- of his mercy, of his expectations, and of his benevolence towards us.I beleive in the Gospel and in Church with every fiber of my being- and perhaps one day my personal attainment will reflect that. As I am fond of saying, I'm a practicing Latter-Day Saint. And I'll keep practicing until I get it right.It's been my experience that most of the trouble Latter-Day Saints and investigators find in their learning and growth revolves around unfulfilled expectations.They start with the assumption that if the Church is true, it must therefore be perfect. They lose sight of the fact that the Church is not a resort for the perfected, but a hospital for the sick. Though its origins and commission are divine, it is manned and ministered by flawed, mortal men- and will therefore eternally fall short of the ideal.They expect our leaders- most especially our Prophets and Apostles- to be more than human. They assume that someone called of God must be quickened in some way- set apart from all the flaws and foibles that made them human to begin with.This being the case, they expect that everything the Church has said is without contradiction, nor is it subject to interpretation, agency, or even misrepresentation. They expect that everything our leaders have said is straight from God's lips to their ears, and is not potentially biased by the fact that our leaders are themselves only flawed men still struggling down the road to perception. With this preconception in mind, it can be very, very jarring to see the flaws, foibles, and errors of our leaders. It can also be earth-shaking when the same facts which support the Church's position on any particular topic are spun to achieve an entirely different conclusion. Differing versions of the First Vision, the Kirtland Banking Society, and some of the inflammatory things said by our leaders before 1978 can all be devastating to a testimony when they are removed from their proper historical context and then coupled with the expectation that our leaders were somehow super-human.Frankly this idea is unprecedented- there is no Biblical or Scriptural support for such an expectation. No perfect man has walked the Earth save one. Our prophets, our leaders are imperfect, flawed human beings. They still have to deal with what's for dinner and skinned knees, and whether the cat wants out the house give minutes after it was let in, or wants in five minutes after it was let out.The other expectation is tied closely to the first.Most of us wants a God, a Church, a cause that we can dedicate ourselves to wholly, completely, passionately, and without reservation. For a tiny minority, that desire can become a need for perfection and for an easy ride. It works out something akin to; "Now that I'm a member of the Church, I am safe. I don't need to weigh things for myself or diligently study- I can merely do whatever the Brethren tell me and I will be healthy, prosperous, and successful."Blind devotion appeals to the absolutist elements of their character, and when deprived of that expectation, they become embittered, hostile, and frankly, fanatical. The idea that obedience will guarantee them a safe and easy passage is devastating when they find out they are still subject to the hardships, trials, bumps, and bruises of life. A reasonably prominent commentator in the recent PBS special on the Mormons is a prime example. He made inflammatory claims about his zealousness and devotion in an effort to paint Mormons as blind followers, and then admitted that he fell away because the leaders weren't what he thought they were.The realization that our leaders and our Church are not infallible- and that we are each expected to work out our own salvation "with fear and trembling" was devastating to his testimony.That he remained responsible for his own salvation and could not rely on perfect leaders was devastating- it didn't appeal to his absolutist streak, and so he has become absolutist in the opposite extreme. The Church which failed to meet his expectation and answer his needs has now become the greatest evil in his life.I apologize for the length of this rant, and look forward to talking to each of you in this forum. Hopefully, you can teach me quite a bit more about the true and restored Church of Christ, and in the same vein, I won't bore you to death! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 It's been my experience that most of the trouble Latter-Day Saints and investigators find in their learning and growth revolves around unfulfilled expectations.This is a great observation. I do not believe it takes someone to get offended or thinking they really never had a testimony of the LDS church to leave. I think one unfulfilled expectation is to believe the Church Leadership is infallible. This is not the case whatsoever and I am sure for converts who are used to believing the Church leaders are infallible this is something that they may struggle with.QuorumPrez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 I apologize for the length of this rant, and look forward to talking to each of you in this forum. Hopefully, you can teach me quite a bit more about the true and restored Church of Christ, and in the same vein, I won't bore you to death! <whew> What a shot across the bow!! Nice post, Selek, and welcome! HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhitlock Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Selek, you have never bored anyone to death. Not even near death or to tears. Great philosophy! Keep it realistic and you won't be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selek Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Selek, you have never bored anyone to death. Not even near death or to tears.Great philosophy! Keep it realistic and you won't be disappointed.You've clearly never been anywhere near my ex-wife and kids when I get going about the conversations on the boards!There is generally much wailing and gnashing of teeth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aluwid Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 I'm a fourteen year member, a convert to the Church. I am divorced with four childrenHey Selek, when I read that first I thought you were saying you were fourteen years old, then you mentioned you were divorced with four children and suddenly I was very confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selek Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Hey Selek, when I read that first I thought you were saying you were fourteen years old, then you mentioned you were divorced with four children and suddenly I was very confused. Chronologically, I am 36, and will be 37 on Christmas Eve.According to both my most ardent admirers and vociferous critics, I range in age emotionally and intellectually, somewhere between a spoiled two-year-old and an eighty-year-old Machiavelli. I joined the church not-quite fifteen years ago. (If it had been AA, then I could claim a fourteenth birthday, as I understand it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhitlock Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 You've clearly never been anywhere near my ex-wife and kids when I get going about the conversations on the boards!There is generally much wailing and gnashing of teeth!Like, you mean your family doesn't think much of the time spent posting?My wife often get's the "I'll humor him" look when I start talking about what's going on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selek Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Like, you mean your family doesn't think much of the time spent posting?My wife often get's the "I'll humor him" look when I start talking about what's going on here.That's the one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigglysaint Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 You know I have a question. Is it okay to engage in light hearted discussion about certain groups and websites that in the past have painted us in negetive light? In other words, can we make fun of the people at CARM if the need to do arises, or are we generally supposed to be good people all arround? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadams_4040 Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 That's the one! Count yer blessings, at least she gives the I,ll humor him look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadams_4040 Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 You know I have a question. Is it okay to engage in light hearted discussion about certain groups and websites that in the past have painted us in negetive light? In other words, can we make fun of the people at CARM if the need to do arises, or are we generally supposed to be good people all arround? I,m not in control hear {thank Goodness} but it seems that as long as its all in good nature, Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigglysaint Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 I,m not in control hear {thank Goodness} but it seems that as long as its all in good nature, Why not? So I can make jokes like "How many people over at CARM does it take to screw in a light bulb?"None, because the the light burrrns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhitlock Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 or are we generally supposed to be good people all arround?Dang, that's going to leave me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Hey Selek! Good to see you here! What do you mean by "once and future bride"? Are you guys getting remarried? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garden Girl Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Hi Selek.... I'm glad you're here too... always appreciate your posts... Garden Girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charity Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Hi, selek. This is getting to be a good bunch. Like a school reunion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selek Posted August 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Hey Selek!Good to see you here! What do you mean by "once and future bride"? Are you guys getting remarried?It depends upon the mood she's in when you ask her. About 90% of the time she can't imagine eternity without me. 80% of the time she can't imagine eternity with me, and about 30% of the time she wants to give me a push in that direction (off a cliff) .We go through cycles. I've proposed to her (and she's accepted) twice since the divorce, but she's always broken it off for one reason or another within six months of the proposal. Her family is leery (my family thinks I'm certifiably insane), and three of our four (teenagers, all) children are opposed.I was her second husband. Her past and her first marriage were disasters, so she was a little messed up when I found her. I rode in on a white charger and married a woman with two kids (and a third in the oven) and never looked back.After seven years of the stupid things people do to each other in a marriage, and with her Daddy cheerleading, she divorced me. In moments of brutal honesty, I occasionally admit that I might have had it coming (not for any abuse or anything like that, but for not being the husband and priesthood holder I should have been and who she needed me to be). Since then, I've stepped up to the plate in ways neither of us imagined, and our relationship is stronger than it ever was. There's just a tremendous amount of baggage for her to overcome- and a lot of fear. Various people have spent her entire lifetime beating down her self-esteem and destroying her ability to trust (both herself and men in general). They've messed with her faith in herself and her faith in God.I know that she loves me (and my feelings have been anything but hidden), but that's a lot for her to overcome. She's terrified of making another huge mistake (she has admitted our divorce was one of them), and basically wants to please everybody. She has it in her mind that the only reason the kids could possibly be opposed is because it's not right for us to be together.So everything is on hold until the kids are grown, the moons align, and Heavenly Father sends her an angelic witness to slap her upside the head and tell her to quit stalling.And she knows that I'm just dumb/dedicated/committed enough to wait for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulsenll Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 It depends upon the mood she's in when you ask her. And she knows that I'm just dumb/dedicated/committed enough to wait for her. Good for you!!!!!Larry P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhitlock Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Good luck, Selek, with the long term family project. There will be great joy at some point in this whole process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningStar Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 That's so awesome, Selek! It's inspiring to read someone loving another person so much that they're willing to wait like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 Hi Selek... an other refugee from the other forum... Thanks for the very fine words you have written here. I really enjoyed this post. "They start with the assumption that if the Church is true, it must therefore be perfect. They lose sight of the fact that the Church is not a resort for the perfected, but a hospital for the sick. Though its origins and commission are divine, it is manned and ministered by flawed, mortal men- and will therefore eternally fall short of the ideal." So right you are... Will write more of this in my intro.. when I get to it... Sometimes life can be sooo difficult... all the choises.... what is right.... I dontquite believe in Donny Osmonds words ; life is what you make of it ..... but more of it later... Good to see you and so many others I know here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garden Girl Posted September 2, 2007 Report Share Posted September 2, 2007 Hello Selek...I appreciated your post about your once and future wife... you both will be in my prayers... personally, as someone who lost my love quite suddenly, I hope she won't waste any more years...and you can tell her Garden Girl said so... because this is something I know about... how life can change in a flash. Life is precious... love between two people is precious... it is a "gift" when two people find a deep love, and friendship. I think the two of you need to sit down together, alone, and you take her by the hands, look her in the eyes, and talk this over. I'm someone who took my dear husband to the hospital for a fairly routine surgery, which was successful...but then there were complications develop. And instead of taking him home that afternoon he was in a coma in Intensive Care... during the days that followed I would stand by his bed in a tiny area so as not to step on any tubes, etc. Eight days later he was gone... I didn't get to say goodbye to him. Are you two going to waste any more time? And if you decide to go forward, you both need to sit down with the children and explain your decision. What possibly could they oppose? All good wishes Selek...Garden Girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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