Rchrdnlsn

Personal Revelation

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I am new to this forum but I wanted to ask a question.  Its about personal revelation.  

So If I understand personal revelation it won't conflict with current words of prophets or any scripture for that matter? I hear many people say they received personal revelation that clearly goes against what our Prophet is saying.  How can I know for sure what is revelation and what is my own feelings?  I used to put everything up against what the prophets have said and do say.  I assume that is still the best practice since God would first reveal to his servants the prophets right? 

Anyways I am rambling but just want to know what faithful advice you guys all have.  

 

Thanks

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34 minutes ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

I am new to this forum but I wanted to ask a question.  Its about personal revelation.  

So If I understand personal revelation it won't conflict with current words of prophets or any scripture for that matter? I hear many people say they received personal revelation that clearly goes against what our Prophet is saying.  How can I know for sure what is revelation and what is my own feelings?  I used to put everything up against what the prophets have said and do say.  I assume that is still the best practice since God would first reveal to his servants the prophets right? 

Anyways I am rambling but just want to know what faithful advice you guys all have.  

 

Thanks

It depends on what you mean by conflict.  I see nuance here that can be parsed out.  First we have revealed truths like Christ is the Savior...  If I get/claim a revelation that it is really Bob in Kentucky well it is pretty safe to say I am being led astray.  However many things in the church are simply the best way to handle things for a large group.  In that case a local or personal exception might be spot on.  Some cases can be very clear which one they are... others can be murky.

Then there is the case of the Lord testing individuals.  The Lord could give us something as part of our test to see what we do with it. Do we keep personal revelation sacred or do we try to set ourselves up as a light?  Do we follow the Lord's instructions or do we excuse ourselves for some reasons?  While the Lord only reveals speaks truth we can lead ourselves plenty far away from that truth with our own understanding/expectations/desires.

 

 

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It really depends situation to situation.  A couple of things to remember:

- Remember that old story about three blind men describing different parts of the elephant?  That happens a lot.  Also people describing the same part but with different words and/or levels of understanding. 

-Not everything that comes out of a church leader’s mouth is automatically “thus saith the Lord”.  They are human and allowed to express their own thoughts too.  It’s important to look at the larger body of scripture & teachings & leader statements rather than building everything on a single random statement.

- Not all advice applies to all people in all cases.

 

So, what to do?  First, remember to keep the Spirit with you when asking for discernment, and ask Him to help you here.  May a trusted friend or church leader could help as well. 

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2 hours ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

I am new to this forum but I wanted to ask a question.  Its about personal revelation.  

So If I understand personal revelation it won't conflict with current words of prophets or any scripture for that matter? I hear many people say they received personal revelation that clearly goes against what our Prophet is saying.  How can I know for sure what is revelation and what is my own feelings?  I used to put everything up against what the prophets have said and do say.  I assume that is still the best practice since God would first reveal to his servants the prophets right? 

Anyways I am rambling but just want to know what faithful advice you guys all have.  

 

Thanks

It's a bit like interpreting scriptures, isn't it?  Whenever you read a verse outlining commandments, you have to figure out how that applies to you, and how best to live it given your circumstances.

In the end, you make the best choice you can and do what you honestly feel is the right thing to do given the commandments you have been given.  But in the end, the Lord will judge you based on the decisions you make.  If He agrees that what you have done was appropriate for your circumstances, then you're fine.  If not . . .

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19 hours ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

I am new to this forum but I wanted to ask a question.  Its about personal revelation.  

So If I understand personal revelation it won't conflict with current words of prophets or any scripture for that matter? I hear many people say they received personal revelation that clearly goes against what our Prophet is saying.  How can I know for sure what is revelation and what is my own feelings?  I used to put everything up against what the prophets have said and do say.  I assume that is still the best practice since God would first reveal to his servants the prophets right? 

Anyways I am rambling but just want to know what faithful advice you guys all have.  

 

Thanks

All personal revelation passes through your own thoughts and feelings. The idea is to become with the Lord's thoughts and feelings. So while personal revelation may conflict with the Lord's servants, it is time to prioritize (which is why a personal witness of the Book of Mormon, the God, the Church, etc. need to come first). For example, if you have a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, you will weigh any conflicting personal revelation against 3 Nephi 11: 27-30 and 12:1, and the subsequent teachings of the Lord.

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On 12/17/2019 at 12:03 PM, Rchrdnlsn said:

I am new to this forum but I wanted to ask a question.  Its about personal revelation.  

So If I understand personal revelation it won't conflict with current words of prophets or any scripture for that matter? I hear many people say they received personal revelation that clearly goes against what our Prophet is saying.  How can I know for sure what is revelation and what is my own feelings?  I used to put everything up against what the prophets have said and do say.  I assume that is still the best practice since God would first reveal to his servants the prophets right? 

Anyways I am rambling but just want to know what faithful advice you guys all have.  

 

Thanks

Remember, we are all progressing with our understanding of how the Lord speaks to us. We are progressing like the dew of the heavens. At some point, like Nephi, in the Book of Mormon we can attain a perfect form of revelation and prophecy.

I would agree with you 100% that if you follow the prophets and judge your personal revelation to the prophets and the prophets counsel you will come to a more sure word of prophecy and revelation. I really like Nephi's experience with Laban. When he first received revelation to kill Laban he even said "No way"! (paraphrazed) Then we are taught an important lesson, if we receive something that appears to contradict already revealed word from the Lord to his prophets, then we have every right for further witness and Nephi received further witness that was undeniably from God.

Principles that are important with personal revelation:

1) Core doctrine - any revelation that contradicts core doctrine is false. An easy contradiction happening in our modern age is gender. We have people specifying there are multiple genders (even members) and clearly we can see this is not of God but of the devil and him stirring the hearts and minds against God and His truths. Another easy one is SSM. We have members who are uplifting and thinking God accepts and condones this behavior. When clearly he doesn't. Anyone receiving revelation opposite to this truth (man and woman marriage) is obviously being deceived.

2) Interpretation - not core doctrine. When something has not been solidified as "core doctrine" and is in the realm of interpretation then we may or may not be right. Elder McConkie had strong opinions and believed in his personal revelation, which obviously wasn't yet perfected. Once truth was proclaimed he did what others may not have, I am wrong forget what I have said. (paraphrased)

The point is that we are progressing and becoming like God. We are humble enough to accept when we are wrong. We are placing God first and honoring his servants.

In our process of becoming there will be times where we will be wrong, we will misunderstand a prompting/revelation, or because we believe in something so strongly we are lead to believe in our own intelligence. The point being, we are learning and progressing and that is OK, and it is OK to be wrong (unless we are pitting ourselves against the Lord's servants).

I remember having a strong feeling that something would happen in 9 years and I knew what was going to happen. Nine years have passed, and nothing. I may have misunderstood what God was letting me know, or because of my desire and force I put myself in a position that allowed deception. Either way, I am still learning, and until we receive a more sure word of prophecy and revelation we will still -- at times -- follow our own feelings thinking it is revelation when it is simply our strong belief that may or may not be right.

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So Was Nephi's experience against core doctrine? I believe you 100%.  I just get hung up on this Nephi thing.  It doesn't make it so anything is possible right? That is why we have prophets and apostles is to help us know the will of the Lord? Or the further witness you are talking about is from prophets and apostles, or core doctrine?

Edited by Rchrdnlsn

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26 minutes ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

So Was Nephi's experience against core doctrine? I believe you 100%.  I just get hung up on this Nephi thing.  It doesn't make it so anything is possible right? That is why we have prophets and apostles is to help us know the will of the Lord? 

Excellent question and a question we have to be cautious with. Let's review core doctrines we know of the Lord and of our Father in heaven (as God and his beloved son are "one"):

1) Light and truth = Intelligence or the glory of God. All things that are true come from God.

2) There is no shadow of changing, as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

3) Everything God has done is for the good of his children -- everything. He is bringing about the immortality and eternal life of his children.

In this light, now ask and think about the question you have proposed. If Nephi's experience was against core doctrine would God have commanded him to do something contrary to truth? The answer is, no. Remember, core doctrine, are absolutes that do not change (i.e. Jesus is the Christ, never gonna change).

With Nephi we are understanding there is a difference between murder, self-defense, and killing. Think about the additional witness Nephi received regarding Laban that was brought back to his remembrance:

1) The Lord delivered him

2) "I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life;"

3) Laban was not obedient to the Lord's commandments (remember this was a time where prophets were prophesying of the destruction of Jerusalem due to their wicked state)

4) He also had taken away our property.

5) "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes."

6) Nephi is given more than what is above.

In this light, we are receiving additional truths according to covenant, period in time, and a commandment received personally from the Lord. A core truth is murder is never condoned. Nephi did not "murder" Laban in light of how it would be seen now. In the eyes of the natural man, it would be murder, but we aren't judged eternally by the natural man. Remember, we are learning about who God is, who is perfect. Laban, if the people of Jerusalem were righteous would have probably already been put to death for his wickedness according to the Law of Moses. Laban wasn't innocent, and for one, he sought to murder Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi (for their riches). Remember also, it was not Nephi giving the sentence, it was God.

No, it does not make is so that anything is possible, and yet we do have to make sure we are not deceived, and yes that is one of the main reasons we have prophets and apostles.

Edited by Anddenex

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38 minutes ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

So Was Nephi's experience against core doctrine? I believe you 100%.  I just get hung up on this Nephi thing.  It doesn't make it so anything is possible right? That is why we have prophets and apostles is to help us know the will of the Lord? Or the further witness you are talking about is from prophets and apostles, or core doctrine?

Because we humans can be quite not in perfect harmony with the Lord.

It's good to have a human person there to talk to-- to help guide, comfort, and be there.  This doesn't replace our individual relationship with the Lord, but rather they enhance each other.  

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1 hour ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

  I just get hung up on this Nephi thing.

But you don't have a problem with Abraham?

Edited by Mores

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17 minutes ago, Mores said:

But you don't have a problem with Abraham?

But that's different! Because, you know, Abraham...and...stuff.

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How about abraham?  Is it sort of the same thing? It was never Gods intent to have Him kill His son?  Many have argued the real test was to see what he would do with the two commandments that contradict each other. Just thinking out loud. Not what I believe just pondering.

Edited by Rchrdnlsn

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15 hours ago, Vort said:

But that's different! Because, you know, Abraham...and...stuff.

what I said about Abraham I can still see a loving God in there for some reason. I know that prophets have said, there is a pattern to revelation, it doesn’t go against core doctrine.  That is what I am learning and that is what I am thankful for. 

Edited by Rchrdnlsn

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12 hours ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

How about abraham?  Is it sort of the same thing?

With regard to personal revelation it is EXACTLY the same thing.

Quote

It was never Gods intent to have Him kill His son?

Abraham didn't know that at the time.  He was going to do it right up until the moment the angel stopped him.

Quote

Many have argued the real test was to see what he would do with the two commandments that contradict each other. Just thinking out loud. Not what I believe just pondering.

You can argue whatever the "real" test was all you want.  But the very title of this thread is "Personal Revelation".  And to understand that principle, all that matters is:

1) If we have enough spiritual experience to clearly discern between God, Satan, or man.
2) If we are willing to abide by every word which proceeds forth out of the mouth of God.

Neither of these principles were different for either of the two situations.  Both clearly had enough experience to clearly discern that difference.  Both were absolutely willing to obey the Lord.

The thing is that I would have a greater problem with Abraham obeying a commandment to slay an innocent person (Isaac) than I would with Nephi obeying a commandment to slay a man who had attempted to kill him for trying to obey the Lord's commandments.  But for some reason, you turn that around because... Abraham.. and... stuff.

Edited by Mores

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12 hours ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

How about abraham?  Is it sort of the same thing? It was never Gods intent to have Him kill His son?  Many have argued the real test was to see what he would do with the two commandments that contradict each other. Just thinking out loud. Not what I believe just pondering.

I would agree with you that Abraham's experience and Nephi's experience are totally different, except for both receiving a command to kill/sacrifice someone. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his only son (which in many ways that would have been harder than Nephi).

Abraham loved his son in comparison with Nephi who was almost murdered by his uncle. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice someone who was innocent, while Nephi was commanded to kill someone who was wicked by all accounts.

I would argue that Abraham's experience was emotionally, temporally, and spiritually much harder, and we know that Abraham had already committed to sacrifice his son (without knowing God's purpose and intent, simply following the command he received from God).

That is an interesting thought. I appear not to be in circles regarding the argument being between two different commands, although technically there were. I have understood the real test was simply obedience vs. disobedience.

For me though, I don't compare Abraham and Nephi because I don't see their experiences as similar. Now if God had Abraham go through with it and then God raised Isaac from the dead like Abraham believed would happen -- well, that would have been a whole different story and definitely similar to Nephi.

 

Edited by Anddenex

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So the end question is through all of this is would God command others to do similiar or other things that are against core doctrine?  The answer is no. I just don’t trust my own feelings right now so...  am I right or is that putting restrictions on God. We are supposed to follow the prophets in how to lead our lives right? 

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1 minute ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

So the end question is through all of this is would God command others to do similiar or other things that are against core doctrine?  The answer is no. I just don’t trust my own feelings right now so...  am I right or is that putting restrictions on God. We are supposed to follow the prophets in how to lead our lives right? 

@Rchrdnlsn, do you have a specific example that's weighing on your mind?

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7 minutes ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

So the end question is through all of this is would God command others to do similiar or other things that are against core doctrine?  The answer is no. I just don’t trust my own feelings right now so...  am I right or is that putting restrictions on God. We are supposed to follow the prophets in how to lead our lives right? 

Define "Core Doctrine?

Per statements from General Authorities:  There is ONLY ONE core doctrine.  That is of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  All other doctrines, beliefs, commandments, ordinances, etc. are merely appendages to it.

And if you don't believe in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, then you're rejecting everything else.

Now, if you're thinking about killing someone, STOP IT!

** As far as your own feelings right now **

Remember my first principle.  You have to have enough spiritual experience to be able to tell the difference between God, Satan, and man.  You start small, and grow from there.  If you'd like help getting through that process, then you can contact your bishop for help.  We can do only so much on the internet.

Edited by Mores

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1 minute ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

Well I have this friend that says God told him it’s okay to be in a same sex relationship. I don’t know how to help him know that is nothing God would say. 

He's wrong. That's it.  Nothing more.  He's wrong.  And there is no way you're going to convince him of that.  So, just drop it.  End of story.

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1 minute ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

Well I have this friend that says God told him it’s okay to be in a same sex relationship. I don’t know how to help him know that is nothing God would say. 

That is something that God's prophets have spoken out against many times very thoroughly, so he/she is clearly in the wrong.

As to what you can do: this is a matter of their agency.  Yes, you can share God's teachings, but their choice (and the consequences) is theirs to make. 

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1 hour ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

So the end question is through all of this is would God command others to do similiar or other things that are against core doctrine?  The answer is no. I just don’t trust my own feelings right now so...  am I right or is that putting restrictions on God. We are supposed to follow the prophets in how to lead our lives right? 

So the end question is through all of this is would God command others to do similiar or other things that are against core doctrine?

Yes and no. Remember, in relation to core doctrine, God is the author and knows the sphere of truth of core doctrine. The real question for us is Abraham 3: 25 (speaking of Abraham) :)

I just don’t trust my own feelings right now so...  am I right or is that putting restrictions on God.

Definitely do not want to put any restrictions on God. We are learning. He is not. Personally, my honest opinion, it is better to "not" trust our own feelings. In Abraham's case, Abraham new the voice of God. It wasn't a question (at least from scripture Abraham new the source of the revelation).

With Nephi, he didn't trust his own feelings and additional witness was given. If you do not know it is from God -- don't act. If you do not know it is from God, and you know it contradicts revealed word and commandments - don't act -- reject. God will provide additional witness -- clear -- if we are unsure a command is actually coming from him.

We are supposed to follow the prophets in how to lead our lives right? 

Yes, and I draw your mind to the following commandments given by God through his prophets (Matthew 22: 36-40) :

Quote

 

36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

Give special attention to verse 40.

 

Edited by Anddenex

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8 minutes ago, Rchrdnlsn said:

Well I have this friend that says God told him it’s okay to be in a same sex relationship. I don’t know how to help him know that is nothing God would say. 

Adding a third witness, your friend is clearly not following God. It would be no different than a hetero sexual saying, "God commanded me to sleep with this woman (whom I am not married to) in order to have a baby."

These two are easy. How you can help, obey the first two great commandments. :)

If you have shared your thoughts, then they know how you feel, and you don't have to keep sharing it. Love them, but do not invert the two great commandments.

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