Is there ever a point where believing members of The Church need to stop supporting social norms of pop culture?

[scottyg]

36 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

The fact that it came and came so quickly has always struck me as deeply sorrowful.
How would a people allow it to come upon them?
I think in part it comes from an eventual tolerance of sin.
Such and such isn't that bad because...
Violence isn't that bad because...
A lesbian kiss scene isn't that bad in Star Wars because...

I enjoy the following quote by Elder Boyd K. Packer:

 

I agree with your thoughts. President Monson often shared the following passage with regards to sin:

"...Vice is a monster of so frightful mein,

as, to be hated needs but to be seen;

Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,

We first endure, then pity, then embrace."

Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man

 

With regards to the movie, (which I have not nor will ever be seeing) I believe the reason so many "film critics" gave it a bad rating is because I have heard it tried to go back to what Star Wars was supposed to be, yet still dabbled a little bit in the woke culture of the day. Dabbling is not enough...they want their message and views shown completely and openly. I saw TLJ and it was a big pile of PC...so of course the mainstream media loved it while the majority of true fans think it is the worst of the 9 main story films. Over the years I have gone to my home movie collection several times and removed those movies that contain bits of inappropriate material. I used to love collecting movies and had huge bookcases full of them like so many people do nowadays. I thought it was important and cool. But today that collection is down to less than 30. The rebuttals are always the same..."but, it only has that one scene...and we fast forward through it". Well, it's still there, and someday one of my children may watch it by themselves and not fast forward through it. If I kept such a movie what would that tell my children about my true views of the gospel? Do I really practice what I preach? I don't need or want filth in my home, so I got rid of it. Would you watch this entertaining movie with the Savior? Would he approve of it?

On a different note, many of the individuals who profess to be gay that I associate with at work no longer see tolerance as acceptable behavior. They insist that others must accept their behavior to truly show them love and acceptance. It is not enough for gay couples to be "married" now, but they want everyone to embrace the behavior and promote it. Alternative views are not acceptable to them. Spiritually/morally speaking, they cannot stay in their own land and leave us alone in ours. This is exactly what Giddianhi once told Lachoneus: "...or in other words, yield yourselves up unto us, and unite with us and become acquainted with our secret works, and become our brethren that ye may be like unto us—not our slaves, but our brethren and partners of all our substance."

 

With regard to the following quote, see my first post above.

In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

Russell M. Nelson

[FoolsMock]

4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

For clarification purposes:
Unchaste sexual behaviors ( Alma 39:3–5 ), including but not limited to, homosexual behavior are still "abominations", this has not changed.
In an interview given by both Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman, Same-Gender Attraction, Elder Lance B. Wickman said :

Instead of "abomination", the correct word in the policy change was "apostasy".
In the church announcement, Elders Oaks shared:

Those who enter into Church discipline, either for apostasy or for immoral conduct, can still face: disfellowshipment or excommunication - this has not changed either.

I'm sorry for inaccurately framing how these sins are defined in the original post.  I will edit clarification based on this info in your post

[NeedleinA]

1 hour ago, FoolsMock said:

I'm sorry for inaccurately framing how these sins are defined in the original post.

17 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

I don't know what members believe what anymore.  I don't know who stands by The Proclamation any more and who wishes the church's views on these topics would change. 

@FoolsMock there is no need to be sorry. I have felt and relate to your frustration in the OP. I for one stand by The Proclamation as is, and I simply shared what I did in the hopes of illustrating that the Church also still stands by it... and didn't want you getting frustrated if you thought the Church was some how flip-flopping.

When the announcement that same-sex marriage was no longer being classified as "apostasy", I think there was some initial confusion. Some individuals, members and the media mistakenly took it as a sign that the Church was 'softening' it's stance on the actual sin. I agree with @Vorts assessment:

Quote

I see this announcement as saying, "We will now classify homosexual activity along with other forms of fornication." Seems reasonable.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by NeedleinA

[Traveler]

@FoolsMock

One of the strangest things I have observed is - that a great many want to argue logically things that they determine emotionally without employing logic.  For example, same sex attractions - or for that matter any sexual behaviors to be pre-wired and cannot be learned or acquired.   The argument surrounds what is argued as "Natural" behaviors verses unnatural behaviors.  There has been a great deal of research into what science calls cognitive behaviors as opposed to non-cognitive behaviors.  Instinctive behaviors are considered "natural" behaviors and are non-cognitive behaviors.  Learned or acquired behaviors are considered not natural or instinctive.

Pavlov did ground breaking research into what is called the lowest cognitive level of learning.  Skinner advanced our understanding of cognitive behaviors and a very controversial scientist (Joseph Goebbels) advanced cognitive levels of learning into what has become to be know as "brain washing".  Currently there is research into what is called the "science of addiction" which is the result of alterations of the brain (acquired levels of learning resulting in changes to the human brain).

I believe it was Brigham Young that said, "when personal pleasure enters the room reason will be thrown out the window."  As wonderful as personal pleasure is - it can be a very powerful weapon to displace reason and agency.  With what I have posted thus far - I will put forward some of my observations - which I admit are not controlled scientific observations - mostly because I have not taken the time nor invested the resources for such:

#1. All behaviors that are controllable are cognitive.

#.2 Addictions are dangerous - both to individuals and societies.  Addictions are not and never have been victim-less crimes. 

#3.  All individuals I have met that suffer same sex attractions (or any seemingly uncontrollable sex drive) are addicted at some level to masturbation and tend to believe that everyone indulges in masturbation.   In addition to masturbation - pornography is involved (likely an addiction as well).  Please note that addictions alter the brain.

#4. Whenever someone argues based on their emotions - they will experience anger towards those that disagree with them.

#5. Individuals with addictions can suffer psychological distress (mental disorders) if they are unable to act on their addictions.  Addictions are most difficult to overcome and efforts to "cure" a person can cause psychological problems that can become as dangerous as the addiction - it is not uncommon for a person attempting to overcome addictions to suffer violent schizophrenic episodes.  I believe it to be a crime to assist someone in developing an addiction.

#6. Joseph Goebbels taught that the most effective brainwashing technique is entertainment.  Any entertainment that a person will endure; over time they will eventually embrace and enjoy for themselves.

 

I have wondered and even started a thread on this forum concerning the point at which compassion for a person suffering difficulties concerning any issue - crosses a threshold and becomes enabling - even support to indulge and submit to temptation to continue behavior rather than to overcome and control one's behavior.  In short - I believe temptation is giving support to indulge and submit one's self rather than to control and exercise agency and choice.  The single biggest problem I have encountered with those involved in same sex attractions and those that support such behavior is the believe that such things (as same sex attractions) cannot be controlled.  The un-selected surrender of one's self or others, especially to personal pleasures, is of all the most wicked and self destroying sin that can possibly exist.  Indulgence is the road to self ruin (another term for bondage, perdition or hell)  - discipline is the only road to freedom and liberty.

Should we not encourage all to discipline themselves to become free and themselves in control - rather than to indulge themselves into bondage and slavery. 

 

The Traveler

[brotherofJared]

On 12/26/2019 at 6:57 AM, scottyg said:

The answer to your question is yes. 

"The standard is clear. If something we think, see, hear, or do distances us from the Holy Ghost, then we should stop thinking, seeing, hearing, or doing that thing. If that which is intended to entertain, for example, alienates us from the Holy Spirit, then certainly that type of entertainment is not for us. Because the Spirit cannot abide that which is vulgar, crude, or immodest, then clearly such things are not for us."

David A. Bednar, Apr 2006 General Conference

Yea, but what alienates you may not alienate me. Frankly, I can't see how we can even know which entertainment isn't going to push the social agenda. I watched the movie. I saw the kiss. Will I see another Disney movie? Yes. Will I check to see if there is any same-sex stuff in it before I go watch it? No. Why? Because it doesn't affect my association with the Holy Spirit. What does affect it is when people think that such images should. But why would it? 

IMO, it's equally damaging to get offended by the actions of other people.

[brotherofJared]

I have a problem with any show that seems to be about promoting or normalizing same-sex attractions rather than having a plot. In fact, I can't stand it when there is an episode that seems to drive some political agenda. I watched one episode about a teenage girl that was forced into a marriage with an older man. She killed her husband to escape the premature expectations of marriage and then offered her services to other teenage brides and killed their husband for them so they could escape it. The agenda was the harm these kinds of marriages cause is teenage girls. In the end, they decided to put the girl in juvenile courts which means that when she turned 18, her records would be expunged and she'd be released back into public life. IOW, the FBI convinced the DA it should be okay to murder people who don't fill a social norm that Hollywood happens to be promoting at the moment.

Hollywood has always been in the business of driving social and political agendas. I don't agree with all of them, but I really can't see how we can avoid them or boycott them. Perhaps we can send a letter explaining our disappointment in the subject matter but you better have a lawyer write it because it could be misconstrued as hate-speech.

However, if the show, like Starwars has a cameo appearance of two women or men kissing, it's unnecessary, even unwanted, but isn't going to make the world collapse or require a lengthy lecture about the evils of same-sex attraction to my kids who saw it with me. On that note, considering the fundamentalist Dad's reaction. It could be he was saying the same thing I am. It was unnecessary (for us, but necessary not to get blackballed by social outrage that it didn't have such a cameo), even unwanted, but at least it was a cameo and not a production about the social virtues of same-sex attraction.

[brotherofJared]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

14

On 12/27/2019 at 10:20 AM, Traveler said:

@FoolsMock

One of the strangest things I have observed is - that a great many want to argue logically things that they determine emotionally without employing logic.  For example, same sex attractions - or for that matter any sexual behaviors to be pre-wired and cannot be learned or acquired.   The argument surrounds what is argued as "Natural" behaviors verses unnatural behaviors.  There has been a great deal of research into what science calls cognitive behaviors as opposed to non-cognitive behaviors.  Instinctive behaviors are considered "natural" behaviors and are non-cognitive behaviors.  Learned or acquired behaviors are considered not natural or instinctive.

Pavlov did ground breaking research into what is called the lowest cognitive level of learning.  Skinner advanced our understanding of cognitive behaviors and a very controversial scientist (Joseph Goebbels) advanced cognitive levels of learning into what has become to be know as "brain washing".  Currently there is research into what is called the "science of addiction" which is the result of alterations of the brain (acquired levels of learning resulting in changes to the human brain).

I believe it was Brigham Young that said, "when personal pleasure enters the room reason will be thrown out the window."  As wonderful as personal pleasure is - it can be a very powerful weapon to displace reason and agency.  With what I have posted thus far - I will put forward some of my observations - which I admit are not controlled scientific observations - mostly because I have not taken the time nor invested the resources for such:

#1. All behaviors that are controllable are cognitive.

#.2 Addictions are dangerous - both to individuals and societies.  Addictions are not and never have been victim-less crimes. 

#3.  All individuals I have met that suffer same sex attractions (or any seemingly uncontrollable sex drive) are addicted at some level to masturbation and tend to believe that everyone indulges in masturbation.   In addition to masturbation - pornography is involved (likely an addiction as well).  Please note that addictions alter the brain.

#4. Whenever someone argues based on their emotions - they will experience anger towards those that disagree with them.

#5. Individuals with addictions can suffer psychological distress (mental disorders) if they are unable to act on their addictions.  Addictions are most difficult to overcome and efforts to "cure" a person can cause psychological problems that can become as dangerous as the addiction - it is not uncommon for a person attempting to overcome addictions to suffer violent schizophrenic episodes.  I believe it to be a crime to assist someone in developing an addiction.

#6. Joseph Goebbels taught that the most effective brainwashing technique is entertainment.  Any entertainment that a person will endure; over time they will eventually embrace and enjoy for themselves.

 

I have wondered and even started a thread on this forum concerning the point at which compassion for a person suffering difficulties concerning any issue - crosses a threshold and becomes enabling - even support to indulge and submit to temptation to continue behavior rather than to overcome and control one's behavior.  In short - I believe temptation is giving support to indulge and submit one's self rather than to control and exercise agency and choice.  The single biggest problem I have encountered with those involved in same sex attractions and those that support such behavior is the believe that such things (as same sex attractions) cannot be controlled.  The un-selected surrender of one's self or others, especially to personal pleasures, is of all the most wicked and self destroying sin that can possibly exist.  Indulgence is the road to self ruin (another term for bondage, perdition or hell)  - discipline is the only road to freedom and liberty.

Should we not encourage all to discipline themselves to become free and themselves in control - rather than to indulge themselves into bondage and slavery. 

 

The Traveler

How would you suggest that he encourage all to discipline themselves? In #5, you said, "efforts to "cure" a person can cause psychological problems that can become as dangerous as the addiction". So, how? It seems from your post that it's hopeless, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

How would you suggest that he encourage all to discipline themselves? In #5, you said, "efforts to "cure" a person can cause psychological problems that can become as dangerous as the addiction". So, how? It seems from your post that it's hopeless, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

First we need to realize the power of addictions and avoid them ourselves.  Then we need to be merciful to those with addictions.  I suggest that without the atonement (being reborn of the spirit) that it is impossible?  Those that overcome addictions - we ought to recognize the divine miracle that took place. 

 

The Traveler

[scottyg]

On 12/29/2019 at 12:40 AM, brotherofJared said:

Yea, but what alienates you may not alienate me. Frankly, I can't see how we can even know which entertainment isn't going to push the social agenda. I watched the movie. I saw the kiss. Will I see another Disney movie? Yes. Will I check to see if there is any same-sex stuff in it before I go watch it? No. Why? Because it doesn't affect my association with the Holy Spirit. What does affect it is when people think that such images should. But why would it? 

IMO, it's equally damaging to get offended by the actions of other people.

This isn't about you or I being alienated. It is about the Spirit of the Lord. Who are you to say what does and does not alienate the Holy Ghost? If you do not know when you do or do not have his companionship then that is a problem.

[brotherofJared]

On 12/30/2019 at 6:37 AM, scottyg said:

This isn't about you or I being alienated. It is about the Spirit of the Lord. Who are you to say what does and does not alienate the Holy Ghost? If you do not know when you do or do not have his companionship then that is a problem.

I was speaking about alienating the spirit. I thought that was understood, but I guess not. I think I was clear about knowing when I have the Holy Ghost and when I don't. 

For example, at the moment I am responding to your post, I don't. This particular moment is one where it is difficult to fly with eagles.

[brotherofJared]

On 12/29/2019 at 8:10 PM, Traveler said:

First we need to realize the power of addictions and avoid them ourselves.  Then we need to be merciful to those with addictions.  I suggest that without the atonement (being reborn of the spirit) that it is impossible?  Those that overcome addictions - we ought to recognize the divine miracle that took place. 

 

The Traveler

Everyone is addicted to something. I do not believe there is any avoiding addictions. Being reborn of the spirit still carries for all people addictions. However, I think when you speak of addictions, you're talking about specific addictions and not addictions in general. For example, I don't believe that being addicted to caffeine is one that would fit what you're describing, but it might.

When I asked the question, I thought you have a feasible suggestion, something that we could actually do.

[Phineas]

Disney had to sneak in the lesbian kiss because there is still a large percentage of their viewers who are conservative Christians.  There was a lot of speculation that there would be a Finn/Poe gay relationship, but that didn't happen.  Now there is still speculation that Elsa in the Frozen movies will eventually get a girlfriend.  She never found herself a prince in the second one and remains single.  The possibility is still there for Frozen 3, but as long as there a plenty of families that hold traditional views about sexuality, Disney isn't going to go that far.  

Like it or not, homosexuality will only continue to be normalized in our entertainment.