Gross Tithing, Gross Blessings. Net Tithing, Net Blessings


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32 minutes ago, Fether said:

I almost feel there is no correlation between obedience and blessings

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20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

D&C 130:20-12

If I believe the D&C to be true, and I do, then I have to believe that there is correlation.  Therefore, it must be that we do not understand the laws upon which blessings are predicated, or do not know what is and is not a blessing.

Edited by zil
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5 minutes ago, zil said:

If I believe the D&C to be true, and I do, then I have to believe that there is correlation.  Therefore, it must be that we do not understand the laws upon which blessings are predicated, or do not know what is and is not a blessing.

I believe this to be an accurate summation of the state of things.

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8 hours ago, zil said:

If I believe the D&C to be true, and I do, then I have to believe that there is correlation.  Therefore, it must be that we do not understand the laws upon which blessings are predicated, or do not know what is and is not a blessing.

I completely agree 👍 but it isn’t as cut dry when it comes to temporal things like life, wealth and experiences in life and that was what I was referring to (though I didn’t make that clear). Sure it is exactly as stated when it comes to present obedience and our ultimate reward in heaven, but when it comes to viewing wealth, healings, quantity/quality baptisms, drawings into marathons, or whatever earthly reward one could desire, it isn’t as cut and dry as “be obedient, get a priesthood blessing, and you will be physically healed”.

The true reward comes after judgement. But as for temporal rewards, obedience alone will not grant you what you want.

Edited by Fether
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Just came across this quote in my studies this morning (wasn't looking for it but I found it).

 

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Often the question is asked, “What is a tithe?” Joseph L. Wirthlin, a former Presiding Bishop of the Church, gave a clear definition when he explained: “The very word itself denotes one-tenth. A tithe is one-tenth of the wage earner’s full income. A tithe is one-tenth of the professional man’s net income. A tithe is one-tenth of the farmer’s net income, and also one-tenth of the produce used by the farmer to sustain his family which is a just and equitable requirement, as others purchase out of their income such food as is needed to provide for their families. A tithe is one-tenth of the dividends derived from investments. A tithe is one-tenth of net insurance income less premiums if tithing has been paid on the premiums.” (Conference Report, April 1953, p. 98. Italics added.)

Several presidents of the Church have explained that the payment of tithing is an individual and a personal matter and that it is a voluntary contribution. Brigham Young in the early days of the Church taught the Saints, saying: “We do not ask anybody to pay tithing unless they are disposed to do so; but if you pretend to pay tithing, pay it like honest men.” (“Brigham Young on Tithing,” Improvement Era, May 1941, p. 282.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1974/04/i-will-pour-you-out-a-blessing?lang=eng

 

"A tithe is one-tenth of the wage earner’s full income. A tithe is one-tenth of the professional man’s net income"  What does that mean?

Edited by Fether
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25 minutes ago, Fether said:

"A tithe is one-tenth of the wage earner’s full income. A tithe is one-tenth of the professional man’s net income"  What does that mean?

It means that if you work for someone, you tithe on your gross income.

If you work for yourself and have your own business, it is your gross income after BUSINESS expenses. i.e. profits for the business.

Edited by Mores
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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Just came across this quote in my studies this morning (wasn't looking for it but I found it).

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1974/04/i-will-pour-you-out-a-blessing?lang=eng

 

"A tithe is one-tenth of the wage earner’s full income. A tithe is one-tenth of the professional man’s net income"  What does that mean?

The Church's self-reliance course seems to put tithing into perspective when it comes to a professional man's income. You have business costs and you have money you receive from your business. The money received from business for personal use is the money tithing is paid from.

I would have to disagree with @Mores as I have never heard any statement saying this means gross. I understand how some would interpret tithing on the income they receive that they actually use for their personal use (Net income). I also understand why people say it is Gross.

I can see where people would interpret full income as Net, and can see why people would say full income is Gross.

Edited by Anddenex
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On 12/29/2019 at 2:44 PM, Scott said:

Cool. I make about 10 dollars in interest every year because I live paycheck to paycheck. So, I only have to pay about a dollar a year? Nice, I have been paying about $4,000 every year and could really use that money to pay for enough food for my family. Thank you for the link. 😎

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Cool. I make about 10 dollars in interest every year because I live paycheck to paycheck. So, I only have to pay about a dollar a year? Nice, I have been paying about $4,000 every year and could really use that money to pay for enough food for my family. Thank you for the link. 😎

Don’t forget to take in to account the inflation that occurs between when the check is issued and when it actually enters your bank!

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

The Church's self-reliance course seems to put tithing into perspective when it comes to a professional man's income. You have business costs and you have money you receive from your business. The money received from business for personal use is the money tithing is paid from.

I would have to disagree with @Mores as I have never heard any statement saying this means gross. I understand how some would interpret tithing on the income they receive that they actually use for their personal use (Net income). I also understand why people say it is Gross.

I can see where people would interpret full income as Net, and can see why people would say full income is Gross.

We don't disagree as much as you may believe.

I was providing a clearer wording of Elder Wirthlin's statement. "Full income of a wage earner" means "gross". 

But I agree with YOU that the GENERAL statement from the Church does not specifically state net or gross. And such details are between you and the Lord.

My personal belief is that there is a reason for such flexibility.  Generally speaking, most people should be paying on gross.  But I tend to believe there are exceptions to most rules.  Because of such exceptions, the details are left up to the individual to prayerfully decide through earnest seeking of guidance from the Lord.

For such individuals who genuinely are in circumstances where they are the exceptions, I believe they are in complete compliance with the law.

The sad part is that so many of these "exceptions" were never done prayerfully at all, but simply decided via the wisdom of man.  Worse still are those who so transparently believe they've pulled some legalistic loophole to reduce their tithing "liability'.  Such things are perfectly operable when dealing with the IRS.  But the Lord looks on the heart.

Edited by Mores
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For those thinking that net tithing is the correct doctrine, I have one question: What exactly is the difference between taxes and other expenses? 

We have a house payment or rent that is required to live in a home.  We have taxes which are required to live in this country.  We have food expenses.  We have medical expenses. . . 

Tithing after taxes is no different in my mind than tithing after ALL expenses (including entertainment and frivolous costs).  So, why not go all the way?

Then, if that is the method we're all supposed to follow, how do you suppose the Church would actually run? We'd be in debt like we were before Pres. Snow's push for tithing.  And we're supposed to avoid debt.

I have a personal belief that the Lord will always find a way to run His Church.  So, that leads to a coralary.  How will the Lord fund His Church if fewer people pay on gross and more and more pay after ALL expenses (assuming the middle "after taxes" crowd diminishes)?  I would guess that as the tithing participation lessens, the more the faithful tithe payer would be depended upon.  With fewer faithful tithe payers, the greater income those few would need in order to fund the Church.  Just a thought out of nowhere in particular.

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8 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

This debate reminds me of one I endured in Elder's Quorum many years ago.  The lesson was on the law of the fast.  One brother raised his hand and asked if you swallow the water after brushing your teeth did you just violate your fast.

Someone doesn't use toothpaste...

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This chant of net blessings / gross blessings reminds me of something that one of my former Stake Presidents repeatedly taught. He would often say if you almost keep the commandments, you almost get the blessings. He said it so often that eventually i started to think about it. What I understood from what he was saying was that anything less than 100% of keeping the commandments was the same as almost keeping the commandments, and that if you were only almost keeping the commandments, you were almost, meaning not, receiving the blessings. I eventually came to the conclusion that this teaching of "if you almost keep the commandments you almost receive the blessings" was not a true teaching as it implies that complete perfection in keeping the commandments is necessary in order to receive blessings and it fails to take into account those who try hard to keep the commandments but are not completely successful. I believe that to some extent, blessings are proportional to the degree of obedience, and it is not the case that complete obedience is required before the blessings can start to flow. I believe it would be more correct to say that if you keep all the commandments, then you will receive all the blessings and that if you keep something less than all the commandments all the time, then you will receive something less than all the blessings. 

 

On another note, I knew someone who was penniless most of his life and would move from one temporary job to another, often with periods of unemployment in-between. When he really needed more money for some kind of special need, he would give much more than 10% in his tithing in the belief that the Lord would, in return, bless him with what he needed. He told me of at least two occasions when he did this, and he received the blessing that he needed and had been anticipating. 

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16 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I eventually came to the conclusion that this teaching of "if you almost keep the commandments you almost receive the blessings" was not a true teaching as it implies that complete perfection in keeping the commandments is necessary in order to receive blessings and it fails to take into account those who try hard to keep the commandments but are not completely successful. I believe that to some extent, blessings are proportional to the degree of obedience, and it is not the case that complete obedience is required before the blessings can start to flow. I believe it would be more correct to say that if you keep all the commandments, then you will receive all the blessings and that if you keep something less than all the commandments all the time, then you will receive something less than all the blessings. 

 

On another note, I knew someone who was penniless most of his life and would move from one temporary job to another, often with periods of unemployment in-between. When he really needed more money for some kind of special need, he would give much more than 10% in his tithing in the belief that the Lord would, in return, bless him with what he needed. He told me of at least two occasions when he did this, and he received the blessing that he needed and had been anticipating. 

I would actually say the principle being taught is true in context. If a person is only paying 8% tithing, then they really can't expect to receive the full blessing of tithing as our scriptures specify that we are robbing God if we don't pay our tithing and fast offerings.

If a person is almost keeping the law of chastity (you know oral sex is fine but full intimacy -- no, no -- before marriage) they can't expect to receive the blessing of being chaste.

I agree though, if the principle is taken to far, we forget that the Lord no only rewards us according to what we do, but according to the righteous desires of our hearts. We may not be perfect in some commandment, but we still reap some blessing for what we have done. God's mercy and love -- grace.

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13 hours ago, Moonbeast32 said:

This is where people usually say "it's between you and the Lord." I'd say that too, except it feels like such a cop out. Doesn't anyone else think so?

As an isolated statement, it is, in fact, true.

The other things we need to consider are these:

  • As far as changing a person's mind or judging them, it really isn't any of our business.  It is, truly, between that person/family and the Lord.
  • As far as teaching the principle for people unfamiliar, I would give my opinion
    • You're on firm ground if you pay on gross.
    • If you pay any other amount because you're an exception, just remember that you're going off of firm ground and you will eventually have to answer to the Lord for that decision.  So be SURE that the Spirit is talking to you rather than your own desires.
    • Remember you can fool everyone else, including yourself.  But you can't fool the Lord.
    •  Then I'd ask them to pray about it and come to their own conclusion as the Spirit dictates -- not by their own desires or mortal wisdom.
  • As far as discussing/debating in an online forum outside of an official Church setting, we'll just argue till we're blue in the face and have lots of fun doing it.  But nothing will get resolved.
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On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 7:28 AM, mirkwood said:

The epitomy of self righteousness.

Can be. I suppose "gross blessings" irks because it does seem self-congratulatory. Even as a faith statement it seems grabby. Plus, the 'prosperity gospel' type teaching has fallen into disrepute (y'all can thank us Pentecostals for hyping then opposing this nonsense another day :rolleyes:).

Still...what if one decides to believe what the scriptures say--that God blesses givers--especially those who do so with a joyful heart. He allows us to test him only in this area. So, could it be that many of those who find blessing and personal faith growth through giving sincerely want to share/encourage?

Giving is a touchy subject, and some are sadly unware. It probably is more foolish than sinful to spout off about gross blessings. I suspect that often, it's done with good intentions, though.

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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Can be. I suppose "gross blessings" irks because it does seem self-congratulatory. Even as a faith statement it seems grabby. Plus, the 'prosperity gospel' type teaching has fallen into disrepute (y'all can thank us Pentecostals for hyping then opposing this nonsense another day :rolleyes:).

Still...what if one decides to believe what the scriptures say--that God blesses givers--especially those who do so with a joyful heart. He allows us to test him only in this area. So, could it be that many of those who find blessing and personal faith growth through giving sincerely want to share/encourage?

Giving is a touchy subject, and some are sadly unware. It probably is more foolish than sinful to spout off about gross blessings. I suspect that often, it's done with good intentions, though.

You misunderstood what I was saying.  My experience is the "gross" side is making the statement while looking down their noses at the "net" side.  Christ says it isn't okay for me to punch the self righteous in the face (as you can see I have other issues then self righteousness to control.)

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18 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Christ says it isn't okay for me to punch the self righteous in the face

You'd be punching more people than Mike Tyson did in his entire career! 

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38 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

You misunderstood what I was saying.  My experience is the "gross" side is making the statement while looking down their noses at the "net" side.  Christ says it isn't okay for me to punch the self righteous in the face (as you can see I have other issues then self righteousness to control.)

Oh, I think I got that. I just wonder if some on the net side are choosing to interpret the gross-siders as self-righteous and condescending. Perhaps some even feel a twinge of conviction, but choose to redirect attention to the alleged vainglory those doing a bit more.

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