Another "Church Culture Stinks" Article


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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That’s part of the human condition.  

Agree, but we should still be aware of that bias and work to combat it.  Not give into it or downplay it. 

8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Basically, Clint Kimball is behaving like a trash human being

Oh. I thought you said he is a trash human being. I was going to lecture you about loving thy enemy and praying for those who persecute you.  

Edited by MormonGator
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Guest MormonGator
40 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Some people need to be loved through a swift kick in the pants. ;) 

Yeah, that "turn your cheek" thing?" Only applies when it's something we want to do.  

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, Fether said:

Your looking at it backwards, we kicked them in the cheek cause they turned it toward us.

lol. Like I said, I know nothing about that particular website, so I'm not defending them. 

I think I made a good point though. If it says something we already agree with, it's real news/legit/trustworthy. If it says something we don't agree with or don't want to hear, it's fake news, biased, and totally unreliable. Ironically it's usually the left who feels that way, but @Just_A_Guy was right. It's human nature. 

And oh yeah, my other points about turning the cheek and praying for those who persecute you? Also great points. I'm rocking it tonight. 😎

Edited by MormonGator
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On 1/5/2020 at 1:56 PM, Mores said:

It seems so ironic that I really want to say something because I care so much about them.  But they would prefer that I not care so much.  Yet others are blamed for rejecting them because their families don't love them enough.

Just a reminder, @Mores of a principal I',m sure you are very familiar with:

19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

(New Testament | Revelation 3:19)

And no, I'm not calling you to repent here. 

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On 1/5/2020 at 1:25 PM, NeuroTypical said:

FYI, the ward boundaries into which we moved 20 years ago, now holds like 8 wards in 2 different stakes.  True, much is due to population growth and new children born, but a lot of it is due to new member baptisms.

So it's not the best idea to take your (or my) experience and paint it too generally across a global church.  

 

23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

It varies, but I don't think my ward has ever gone a year without at least one, usually several per year.  

We need you in our stake. Perhaps you should consider moving :)  We even had a Branch President at one stage who was also a chocolatier. 

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On 1/4/2020 at 9:25 PM, NeuroTypical said:

FYI, the ward boundaries into which we moved 20 years ago, now holds like 8 wards in 2 different stakes.  True, much is due to population growth and new children born, but a lot of it is due to new member baptisms.

So it's not the best idea to take your (or my) experience and paint it too generally across a global church.  

I just got back from visiting my sister in Texas.  4 years ago when I last visited, there was 1 ward building with 3 wards meeting and 1 stake building with 2 wards meeting (if I remember correctly) within reasonable driving distance from my sister's house.  Now, there are 4 ward buildings and 1 stake building.  Each have 3 wards (the stake building gained a Spanish ward).

In the Philippines - the Church there is growing so fast, it's the only place outside of Utah that has 2 temples within 20 miles of each other.

In my ward, we just had a baptism the week before Christmas.  That was our 3rd convert baptism of the year.  During our Christmas party, we had an investigator that believes "outer space" is a conspiracy theory run by our government.  She's taking discussions and I truly hope she decides to get baptized or at least attend meetings.  It's going to be awesome to have diversity of thought in addition to ethnic diversity we're gaining (the guy that was just baptized is a black guy bringing our total number of black families in our ward to 2) in Sunday School.

Edited by anatess2
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I just got back from visiting my sister in Texas.  4 years ago when I last visited, there was 1 ward building with 3 wards meeting and 1 stake building with 2 wards meeting (if I remember correctly) within reasonable driving distance from my sister's house.  Now, there are 4 ward buildings and 1 stake building.  Each have 3 wards (the stake building gained a Spanish ward).

Sounds typical from my experience in Texas as well.  But we seem to be doing away with Spanish wards.  Each ward with a high concentration of Spanish speakers has headphones for translation.  We're finding it more important to get people integrated, rather than comfortable.

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Just now, Mores said:

Sounds typical from my experience in Texas as well.  But we seem to be doing away with Spanish wards.  Each ward with a high concentration of Spanish speakers has headphones for translation.  We're finding it more important to get people integrated, rather than comfortable.

Hmm... come to think of it, the schedule did not say it's a Spanish Ward.  It just stated Spanish Speaking... so maybe it's just a ward that holds meetings in Spanish with the translation headphones in English.  I just assumed a Spanish Speaking sacrament meeting is a Spanish Ward.

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On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 7:49 PM, Fether said:

https://thirdhour.org/blog/life/mormon-culture/culture-punch-in-face/

I have my own list if anyone cares to read:

1) Joking about trying to avoid the bishop or trying to get out of a talk or calling.

2) Saying that it is acceptable that you are consistently 15 minutes late to 9 am church when you have kids (same family continues to be 15 minutes late to 11:30 am church when the time changes... speaking from personal experience)

3) Focusing on exceptions and unique cases instead of principles of the gospel / leaving long disclaimers at the end of testimonies to prevent offending anyone. (ie "God wants all worthy able men to serve missions, but if you *insert 5 minute explanation as to why missions aren't for everyone*")

4) to-do lists are evil and Pharisaical. The higher law is to just be good and you will naturally do everything you need to.

5) Accusing anyone of hypocrisy or being judgmental. (These are just ways of redirecting personal failing that have been brought to light. And I am not sure we really understand what hypocrisy REALLY means)

6) Home Teaching was this terrible program that needed to change (it wasn't, it was a fantastic program that members failed at).

7) Desiring and enjoying leadership callings is bad. Aspiring to leadership is bad. (We should all be aspiring to Godhood and seeking opportunities to serve a grow along the way)

eight*) Dinner foods cant be eaten for breakfast (yes they can)

9) Complaining about church culture is cool. (It's not)

*Every time I typed "8 )" it turned into 😎

Some people need to get out more.  Not all of us live in Utah.  In fact, I think Utah Mormons are a minority in the Church.

Some of us live in California, Texas, New York and even (Wait for it) foreign countries!!!

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On 1/4/2020 at 7:04 PM, NeedleinA said:

Wards disappear and boundaries are realigned all the time for a variety of reasons, most of which are not the result of faltering testimonies or inactivity.
Just off the top of my head:

1. Over priced neighborhoods/towns. I was recently in Southern California, the Glendora area, where a ward was dissolved and boundaries realigned. Younger generations of members could not afford to live in the areas where they grew up. The net loss in Glendora was a net gain in more affordable neighboring cities like Redlands.

2. About 2 years ago, we dissolved a ward in our Stake. Half staying in our Stake, the other half crossed the river and went to a neighboring Stake. Proximity to new chapels, travel times, seminary teachers, High Schools, etc. all played a role in the decision.

3. We recently dissolved two wards. Divided the members up into existing wards but then turned around and created two new Spanish Speaking branches. Given the number of buildings we have in our Stake, this was determined to be the best course of action.

Could a ward be eliminated over disappearing members? Sure.
I mention what I have simply because I've unfortunately seen members (not saying you @priesthoodpower), perhaps not involved on the back end of things, regrettably espouse that it all must be a 'shrinking' numbers thing, when the contrary is actually true - it is a 'shifting' or 'increasing' numbers thing.

I live in a upscale stake in Utah.  About 5 years ago two wards disappeared from our stake.  Interestingly I have been in every ward in our stake and never moved.  The recent changes were caused by families raising their children and becoming empty nesters.   Our home use to have 7 members, now there are 2.  That is a 70% decrees. We were once in a primary with 200 little darlings - now we have about 25.  The new wards try to balance things but still there are gaps in the age of kids.  Our ward was great for families - now it is great for older couples.  There are some new families moving in with kids - we are kind of a newly wed and nearly dead ward.  But it is great - there are about 15 couples that we travel with.  There are only two that I can cycle and ski with - mostly I ski with my brothers.  But life is shifting.  My generation is dwindling.  My wife and I have lost our parents and all that is left of over 40 aunts and uncles is now less than 5.  Now we are starting to lose cozens.   I would guess about 1/4 of the young families are children of ward members living with parents while they build a home, settle after a divorce or try to get back into life after screwing everything up.  For sure - our ward is evolved over the 35 years we have been here.  

 

The Traveler

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7 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Some people need to get out more.  Not all of us live in Utah.  In fact, I think Utah Mormons are a minority in the Church.

Some of us live in California, Texas, New York and even (Wait for it) foreign countries!!!

I can remember when most members lived in Utah (this was back in the day of road shows, gold and green balls and church wide basketball and softball tournaments - now most members do not even live in the USA and have no idea what on earth is a road show or gold and green ball.

 

The Traveler

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13 hours ago, Traveler said:

I can remember when most members lived in Utah (this was back in the day of road shows, gold and green balls and church wide basketball and softball tournaments - now most members do not even live in the USA and have no idea what on earth is a road show or gold and green ball.

I'm familiar with road shows. I was in one, I played a flower. 😊

M.

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18 hours ago, Traveler said:

I can remember when most members lived in Utah (this was back in the day of road shows, gold and green balls and church wide basketball and softball tournaments - now most members do not even live in the USA and have no idea what on earth is a road show or gold and green ball.

 

The Traveler

My current experience mirrors yours, but here in California.  Young people simply cannot afford houses in my area, and consequently there are few.  Even renting in a decent area requires close to a six figure income.

So Wards have hollowed out and are shrinking.  In other parts of the State this is not true.  There is a building in our stake that was designed for four Wards anticipating what was thought to be future growth.  The building is gigantic.  One ward is in attendance.

I think the article has little to do with "church" culture and a lot to do with Utah Valley culture.

Edited by mrmarklin
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Guest MormonGator
18 hours ago, Traveler said:

We were once in a primary with 200 little darlings - now we have about 25.

That is concerning. The old saying "If the pews ain't crying, the church is dying" is exactly right. 

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19 hours ago, Traveler said:

I can remember when most members lived in Utah (this was back in the day of road shows, gold and green balls and church wide basketball and softball tournaments - now most members do not even live in the USA and have no idea what on earth is a road show or gold and green ball.

I remember those from my early childhood. By the time I came of age, they were long gone.

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9 minutes ago, Moonbeast32 said:

I've seen them referenced. What were they? Why did they stop?

Before I answer your question, you need to understand that after the Saints migrated across the continent to Utah, the Church became by far the biggest social element among them.At first, it was a matter of survival: Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution was formed by Brigham Young as a way to keep the starving Saints from getting gouged by wholesalers. The people really depended on each other just to get by.

By the mid-20th century, we find the Saints in Utah having evolved such that their social lives pretty much center on the Church. A typical ward member's schedule would go like this: You go to Sunday School on Sunday morning for a couple of hours (Priesthood meeting for the men), then go home. You return later that afternoon or evening for a two-hour sacrament meeting. Monday was a grab-bag of a day, but eventually became the agreed-upon day for "family night", later called "family home evening". Tuesdays were MIA night, which stood for "Mutual Improvement Association" (not "Missing In Action"), the Church's youth program. Wednesdays were when the Relief Society met. Thursdays were Primary, when the children gathered for activities. Friday often featured some sort of ward or quorum or group activity. Saturday commonly found the teens and young marrieds at a stake dance. And, of course, there were the ever-popular basketball, baseball, and other sports tournaments, interstake roadshows—really, all sorts of things. It is no wonder that non-LDS transplants to Utah often felt so excluded from the social goings-on around them.

This began to change starting in maybe the 1960s. Certainly by the 1970s, there were attempts to rein things in, and by the 1980s the Church authorities had instituted a "consolidated" three-hour Sunday meeting schedule and had taken steps to be less demanding of the Saints' time. Because, you see, the activities offered by the wards to their members had ceased to be seen as social opportunities to which people looked forward, and had instead become, for many, Yet Another D*****d Thing I Have To Do For Church. Bad attitude? Yes, perhaps. But times change, for better or for worse, and the Church has to change some cultural elements to meet the needs of the people of the day.

So, to answer your question:

A "roadshow" was a traveling show, common the US during the 19th and early 20th centuries. In an LDS context, "roadshows" were plays or other performances done at a stake level, where each ward or other group (often the youth group from each ward) would put on a production for the entertainment of the stake members. These performances would typically travel from meetinghouse to meetinghouse, giving their performances to the various congregations who would come to watch. They were also done at an interstake level, where each stake might get together to cook up a performance, then again travel around to the other stakes to present them.

A "gold and green ball" was a dance for LDS adults and youth, and was put on by the MIA youth. It was actually a pretty swanky affair, with lots of decorations, fancy eats, and often a band hired to play at the venue. They were common all over the Church probably up through the 1950s. In my early childhood in the 1960s, they were still pretty common where I grew up (eastern Washington), and I seem to remember them even into the 1970s. Gold and green were the MIA's official colors, hence "gold and green ball".

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