Guest Mores

One Big Counter Church Culture Trait We Could Do Without

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2 hours ago, Mores said:

I believe it had to do with your preparatory steps.  You say you got your shoes.  Were they leather soled or rubber soled? You know that the rubber hinders teleportation technology, right?

Perhaps it was a passport.  I recently got mine in preparation for this vacation.

Hmm...

Pretty sure I don't own leather-soled shoes.  No passport either.  Sigh.  Thwarted by technicalities.

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Where are you flying off to?

Stonehenge!  Aren't you paying attention?  :SMH:

Edited by zil

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50 minutes ago, Vort said:

Where are you flying off to?

Uhmm, yeah.  What @zilsaid. 

I really don't want to tick her off.  

...

If you must know, I'm off to several different countries.  I may be more incommunicado than @Scott soon.

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We all seem to have 'that person' in our ward who wants to dominate conversations/discussions/insight during a lesson. The rub is they don't realize what they're doing. It's priestcraft.

Men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion.  2 Nephi 26:29 defines it. It's show-boating.

I read a story in Elder Richard G. Scott's book, Finding Peace, Happiness, and Joy. He described a priesthood lesson he attended in Utah, taught by a brother who wanted to impress his audience with his knowledge. The spirit was noticeably absent, in spite of the detailed information and insights with which the instructor tried to wow the quorum. Elder Scott contrasted that with another priesthood lesson he attended somewhere in Latin America, taught by a nervous, humble brother. The spirit was palpable.

Sometimes we fool others, and ourselves, into thinking our level of knowledge about church-related topics or history is an indicator of our worthiness.

Hopefully my comment is not priestcraftly. 😳

Edited by Wilderland

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14 minutes ago, Wilderland said:

We all seem to have 'that person' in our ward who wants to dominate conversations/discussions/insight during a lesson. The rub is they don't realize what they're doing. It's priestcraft.

Men preaching and setting themselves up for a light to the world that they may get gain and praise of the world; they do not seek the welfare of Zion.  2 Nephi 26:29 defines it. It's show-boating.

I read a story in Elder Richard G. Scott's book, Finding Peace, Happiness, and Joy. He described a priesthood lesson he attended in Utah, taught by a brother who wanted to impress his audience with his knowledge. The spirit was noticeably absent, in spite of the detailed information and insights with which the instructor tried to wow the quorum. Elder Scott contrasted that with another priesthood lesson he attended somewhere in Latin America, taught by a nervous, humble brother. The spirit was palpable.

Hopefully my comment is not priestcraftly. 😳

I have a son in law school. One thing you are warned about in law school is that some students are "gunners". That means that the student always raises his (or her—women can be gunners, too) hand to offer answers and tends to try to "show off" his or her knowledge, often to the bemusement and irritation of the professor, as they wax eloquent about this or that and entirely miss the point the professor was making.

So I asked my son if he had any "gunners" in his classes. He said there were a couple of guys, but one guy in particular was always raising his hand and asking questions that seemed to miss the topic the professor was talking about. But he knows the guy on a personal level and said he's no gunner. Rather, he is the type of person who learns by asking questions and having his mistakes pointed out. The fact that he got into a top law school shows he's no dummy, but his learning style is different from that of most of his classmates.

I wonder if some of the "show-boating" people in gospel doctrine or Relief Society or priesthood quorum meeting are actually just people who are excited to share some insights they have had and would like some (constructive, non-critical) feedback about whether they're on the right path.

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52 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have a son in law school. One thing you are warned about in law school is that some students are "gunners". That means that the student always raises his (or her—women can be gunners, too) hand to offer answers and tends to try to "show off" his or her knowledge, often to the bemusement and irritation of the professor, as they wax eloquent about this or that and entirely miss the point the professor was making.

So I asked my son if he had any "gunners" in his classes. He said there were a couple of guys, but one guy in particular was always raising his hand and asking questions that seemed to miss the topic the professor was talking about. But he knows the guy on a personal level and said he's no gunner. Rather, he is the type of person who learns by asking questions and having his mistakes pointed out. The fact that he got into a top law school shows he's no dummy, but his learning style is different from that of most of his classmates.

I wonder if some of the "show-boating" people in gospel doctrine or Relief Society or priesthood quorum meeting are actually just people who are excited to share some insights they have had and would like some (constructive, non-critical) feedback about whether they're on the right path.

I'm what @Wilderland refer to here as a "gunner" spreading priestcraft.  He's, of course, wrong.  I was born with what my parents call the "gift of gab" which is a funny way of saying "she won't shut up".  I was only 3 years old when my mother would stand me up on the coffee table to talk to guests while she prepares food and my politically-involved father would put me on stage to entertain in rallies.  Thoughts crowd around my brain wanting to go out and it literally gives me a headache if it doesn't get out.  So, there are 2 ways I can deal with it - 1.) I don't pay attention, 2.) I exhaust the energy in other ways - I bring a coloring book so half my brain is pre-occupied and is not jumping at the bit to engage in conversation, so I only engage when what I want to say overrides my desire to color.

My eldest kid that is currently 2 weeks away from entering the MTC is plagued with the same gift.  His YM President told me when he was preparing to apply for the mission, "I am going to predict that God will call him to a foreign-speaking mission so that he will have to slow down and talk in simpler sentences."  He was right.  My son's mission field speaks at least 6 different languages!

Some teachers like that I engage because they find it makes their preparation easier as they don't get into a situation where it becomes a "death by powerpoint" lesson - they go where the lesson takes them.  Other teachers don't like that I engage because they prefer to drive the lesson to where they want it to go and not have to worry about bringing the lesson back from where I took it.  In any case, this is not about showboating or being prideful, although I agree there are people who talk a lot that do showboat.  This is simply about a difference in personality.

P.S.  I'm not the most talkative in my ward's RS (thanks to my coloring books).  There are several others who actively engage in the class.  Our lessons are quite lively depending on whether the teacher leaves the lesson for discussion.  I don't feel like any of them are showboating.  There are also others who I've never heard speak in class, ever.

Edited by anatess2

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21 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

@zil I believe we need a cartoon of the school Vort opened for the men who married his daughters.

That's the only way you can know they're worthy of your little girl.

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@anatess2, I will go off on a brief tangent for a moment. I’m not talking about the ability to communicate and articulate a point in a lively discussion. However I don’t believe RS/Priesthood/Gospel Doctrine are necessarily the appropriate venues for such discussions. The purpose of our Sunday meetings is to both share and build each other’s faith. In church meetings we should be focused on the doctrines of Christ and the covenant path.

So much guidance for the church can be found in Handbook 2. Specifically, section 18 states, “Each sacrament meeting should be focused on deepening conversion to Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Other purposes of sacrament meeting are to worship, provide gospel instruction, perform ordinances, conduct ward business, and strengthen faith and testimony.” This certainly applies to all Sunday classes.

Regarding Priesthood meetings: “In these meetings, priesthood holders conduct business, learn priesthood duties, strengthen individuals and families, study the gospel of Jesus Christ, counsel together, and organize to meet local needs.

For Relief Society: “In these meetings, women learn doctrines and principles of the gospel that will help them increase their faith and personal righteousness, strengthen families and homes, and help those in need.

In my experience lively discussions in church meetings accomplish none of the above, but only detract from the intended purpose.

<Tangent mode off ...>

For both @anatess2 and @Vort, my previous post was referring to that person who most Sundays is simply trying to impress with her/his knowledge, which Nephi defines as priestcraft. This person wants to demonstrate his/her learning, and often intimidates others from contributing, who may want to share thoughts and spiritual insight or experiences that could add to the spirit of the class. Yet they feel their contribution doesn’t measure up to overbearing self-aggrandizement. It. Detracts. From. The. Spirit. This does not describe the member who is excited and wants learn, or build faith.  

 

Zil’s depiction of what looks like a Hasidic Jew is awesome.

 

Edited by Wilderland

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7 hours ago, Wilderland said:

@anatess2, I will go off on a brief tangent for a moment. I’m not talking about the ability to communicate and articulate a point in a lively discussion. However I don’t believe RS/Priesthood/Gospel Doctrine are necessarily the appropriate venues for such discussions. The purpose of our Sunday meetings is to both share and build each other’s faith. In church meetings we should be focused on the doctrines of Christ and the covenant path.

So much guidance for the church can be found in Handbook 2. Specifically, section 18 states, “Each sacrament meeting should be focused on deepening conversion to Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Other purposes of sacrament meeting are to worship, provide gospel instruction, perform ordinances, conduct ward business, and strengthen faith and testimony.” This certainly applies to all Sunday classes.

Regarding Priesthood meetings: “In these meetings, priesthood holders conduct business, learn priesthood duties, strengthen individuals and families, study the gospel of Jesus Christ, counsel together, and organize to meet local needs.

For Relief Society: “In these meetings, women learn doctrines and principles of the gospel that will help them increase their faith and personal righteousness, strengthen families and homes, and help those in need.

In my experience lively discussions in church meetings accomplish none of the above, but only detract from the intended purpose.

<Tangent mode off ...>

For both @anatess2 and @Vort, my previous post was referring to that person who most Sundays is simply trying to impress with her/his knowledge, which Nephi defines as priestcraft. This person wants to demonstrate his/her learning, and often intimidates others from contributing, who may want to share thoughts and spiritual insight or experiences that could add to the spirit of the class. Yet they feel their contribution doesn’t measure up to overbearing self-aggrandizement. It. Detracts. From. The. Spirit. This does not describe the member who is excited and wants learn, or build faith.  

 

Zil’s depiction of what looks like a Hasidic Jew is awesome.

 

So, you think learning doctrines and principles of the gospel to increase faith and personal righteousnesss, strengthening families and homes, and helping those in need is a class sitting quietly listening to the teacher teach a class?  Well, I guess if that's what floats your boat...

And no, you didn't say anything about "Impressing the class with their knowledge", you said "that person" in a ward.

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19 hours ago, Vort said:

I wonder if some of the "show-boating" people in gospel doctrine or Relief Society or priesthood quorum meeting are actually just people who are excited to share some insights they have had and would like some (constructive, non-critical) feedback about whether they're on the right path

I often take this approach but let the class know that I really don’t know and would like some insights.

I once made a comment concerning the Book of Mormon containing the fullness of the gospel but lacking specifics on temple ordinances. I was then chastised by 2 other member saying that there were plenty of references to the temple. They seemed to be under the impression that I was pointing out some flaw in the Book of Mormon or something.

Also, in a high school seminary I had a hard time wrapping my mind around a lesson. On the surface level it looked as if God had thrown one soul under the bus in order to save humanity. I challenged the lesson and brought my concern in a blatantly honest way that exposed my thoughts. The seminary teacher got frustrated and we got in a little scuffle in the middle of class.

Its a great way to learn, but blatantly saying something you know is false in an attempt to learn the truth can end up painting a false picture of yourself to some people haha.

Edited by Fether

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@anatess2, you said, “And no, you didn't say anything about "Impressing the class with their knowledge", you said "that person" in a ward.”

Actually, in my first post I indeed said “that person who wants to dominate,” and in my first response to you I did say that person who is “simply trying to impress with his/her knowledge ...” I would like to gently suggest you have quoted statements in which I’ve actually said what you believe I didn’t say. I referred to the show-boating know-it-all. The person who is trying to impress others and who wants to dominate conversations. He has an answer or comment for everything with the intent to gain attention, to ‘lift himself up as a light to the world’. Is it possible you have misunderstood me? If I am the source of misunderstanding due to a lack of clarity I offer my apology.

On to the second point. Yes, I did say, “In my experience lively discussions in a church meeting ... only detract from the intended purpose.” And I did include RS and Priesthood meetings. Perhaps I should have better clarified, or been more explicit in that thought. In the context I intended to address, I meant lively discussions that don’t contribute to the spirit, are merely conjecture, or perhaps even bring a level of contention. None of that should occur at church. However, anatess2, if you are the spark that perks up a dead lesson, bless you.

If we are in a class in which there is no discussion, and the instructor is simply reading from a manual, I’d join you in the foyer. One of the purposes of studying Come Follow Me is to help us be prepared to contribute to gospel discussions and share spiritual insight we received during our personal and family study. We have been encouraged to join the discussions in class. However, these discussions have parameters. All of our meetings and classes are to deepen conversion, and strengthen faith, families and homes. If our lively discussions don’t accomplish this at church, we are in error.

 

 

 

Edited by Wilderland

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What happens at church can be an adventure.  Perhaps the strangest adventure experience I have witnessed was in a Gospel Doctrine Class.  Strangely I do not even remember what the lesson was about but I remember well what happened.  I will try to explain.  There was a lady in our stake but not within our ward boundaries that was a member of our ward - she was divorced and I was the High Priest Group Leader so I was sort of aware of this once married but now single sister.  I do not know if this matters but she was what most men would classify as extremely good looking - she was somewhat of a stunner and dare I add somewhat flirty.  She was also mostly charming - note the adverb "mostly".   I cannot account for why but she was also very wealthy - not that any of this really matters.  Back to the Gospel Doctrine adventure.

This lady starts bearing her testimony of the Church in the Gospel Doctrine class - and in the beginning it was very touching and moving.  Then she begins to talk about her daughter.  I never met the daughter but I was aware of the daughter's circumstance.  She was excommunicated from the church and perhaps should have been in prison but was in a psychiatric hospital.  The daughter's main problem was drugs but there were also chastity, theft and violence problems (violence not just against others but herself as well).  The lady in the class said that she had visions of her daughter as one of the greatest and most noble spirits of the pre-existence and that the daughter was the angel that comforted Christ when he suffered in Gethsemane.  That because she was such a great spirit in the pre-existence that she would suffer such great trials while in mortality.   Perhaps it all would not have gone so badly had not the lady not so raised her voice and demanded that everybody repent and receive a witness of the daughter and spread the news of how wonderful she really is.  This was the last Sunday the lady attended our ward as her records were transferred to another ward. 

I have often pondered this adventure but not so that it occupied my spirituality.  But I have pondered what I ought to or ought not to do, say or think about such things and if there is anything for me to learn from such experience.  I might add that the lady called me out in class because I was the High Priest Group Leader - she also called out the bishopric and several others of the ward.  To this day - all I can say is - I do not understand - it makes no sense to me and I have decided I do not have enough information to respond or make any judgments - other than I think the lady was and is a mental case that may not be relieved from her condition in mortality.  But honestly I do not know - perhaps in our next life I will learn the answer. 

Sometimes I think there are some things for which there are no answers - and that we all need to realize that some answers really do not matter in our mortal lifetime anyway.

 

The Traveler

 

 

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