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The Glory of Men is the Woman

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

So you went from the temple to the nearby steak center?

I did.  I did.

And I'm saving this joke.

I have a collection now of that same temple trip - I'll share one:  This trip we went to have my eldest's endowments as he's leaving for his mission in 2 weeks.  So, my youngest was by himself doing baptisms and since his session ended earlier he had to wait at the reception room for over an hour until we came down.  So, I asked him how his trip was and he said - it's like I'm back in Busch Gardens again playing at the sandpit waiting while y'all ride Montu.

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On 1/9/2020 at 4:57 AM, MormonGator said:

More and more LDS women are working outside the home and having fewer babies. So they aren't listening to you


Patriarchy does not mean keeping the woman at home barefoot and pregnant. I dont believe it ever has. If that were true then  Deborah would never have been a judge and a prophetess. 

Edited by brotherofJared

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4 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Patriarchy does not mean keeping the woman at home barefoot and pregnant.

I agree it doesn't. Yet, oddly, so many self described adherents to the philosophy of "patriarchy" think women should be....barefoot and pregnant. 

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On 1/10/2020 at 4:30 AM, estradling75 said:

I think D&C 121:39 Applies to this conversation

If the Lord is pointing out this tendency in people then we should not be surprise that it shows up.  We should expect to see it in almost all men and almost all women as soon as they get a little authority as they suppose.

If the cultural has given the authority to the men then we can and should expect them to demonstrate it.  If the cultural shifts and gives authority to the women then we should expect it from the women.  This we see in the various cultures that have arisen including our current one.

The answer is not to shift who has the power and authority.  The answer is the one the Lord gives... to teach those in authority what is expected of them in the exercise of it, and if offenses keep happening anyways to remove said authority.

This almost makes sense but for one thing. Where does he say "to teach those in authority what is expected.of them" and who is to teach them?

Edited by brotherofJared

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On 1/9/2020 at 4:17 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

The better solution is the Lord's way where the husband and wife are equals.  That was not the case in the 1950's.  

I would love to hear your views on where and how it's "the Lord's way" where husband and wife are equals. Such is obviously not the case both physically and mentally.

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On 1/9/2020 at 4:27 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

We live in a fallen world.  The lifestyle of the 1950s was not the Lord's way.  What is happening today is not the Lord's way.  Somethings have gotten worse, other things have gotten better. As a woman though, I am so grateful I live now and not the 1950s.  Going back to the 1950s lifestyle is not the solution to our present issues.  
 

Has anyone suggested we return to the 1950s as a solution to present-day problems? The OP, as I understand it was reflecting on Paul's teachings. Are you suggesting that Paul was wrong back then and is still wrong today, but that we're getting closer? I have to wonder what is considered ideal concerning the role of married men and women in the church.

Edited by brotherofJared

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On 1/9/2020 at 4:34 PM, MormonGator said:

It's getting there. Just looking at my friends who are married/in relationships all of them are equal partners. Neither one is the "boss". 

I'm not sure that's true, but if you say so, fine. Looking at my friends, none of them are equal partners (which, I might add, needs to be defined, what is an equal partner. What does that mean?)

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44 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

This almost makes sense but for one thing. Where does he say "to teach those in authority what is expected.of them" and who is to teach them?

The Lord did it.. He commands us to follow him and do what he tells us to... He gave section 121 which tells us how we are expected to handle any authority.  Which the church both teaches and encourages us to study.  How much more do you really need?

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On 1/10/2020 at 8:07 AM, anatess2 said:

I disagree with this completely.  I have an entire society of grandparents that prove this wrong.

What I gathered from your post is that you put your hat of respect on the woman having no opportunities for a career.  This is the biggest error of the Feminist Movement - the idea that full-time Motherhood is not respectable.  The idea that "unless I can do what a man can do we're not equal".

Thank you. Beautifully said. Equality is working together for a common goal. It means accepting responsibilities that the other isn't capable of doing and working to support each other in letting them do their responsibilities. Unfortunately, some people, usually men but sometimes women, believe it is their responsibility to dictate the roles to be played and some men get really upset when others don't play their part. Their reaction to these situations is what leads to problems.

I've met a lot of people, older usually, that have a good relationship. I don't think I could have with either of them, but they had a good one between themselves. I have to believe that harmony was accomplished after much trial on both sides and what we see is the result of finding peace with each other.

But none of that has anything to do with Paul's message.

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I agree it doesn't. Yet, oddly, so many self described adherents to the philosophy of "patriarchy" think women should be....barefoot and pregnant. 

Do you mean that they should take care of the children they bring into the world? I think they should, don't you? But how they take care of them, doesn't mean pumping out another one just because the breech is empty. I don't know who you are referring to. I'm not aware of any church council to the effect of barefoot and pregnant. That is an idea of unrighteous dominion espoused by individuals and sometimes family culture but has never been a doctrine or a policy taught by our church.

However, since it seems that you broached the idea, let's say a return missionary gets married and discovers that after his wife has a baby, she wants to excel in her career path to become an anchorwoman at a broadcasting station in New York while her RM husband is trying to finish his degree in law school in Utah. What would be a hypothetical solution to what to do about the baby? Find me a loving, harmonious hypothetical solution to the problem.

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41 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The Lord did it.. He commands us to follow him and do what he tells us to... He gave section 121 which tells us how we are expected to handle any authority.  Which the church both teaches and encourages us to study.  How much more do you really need?

I really need a quote from the church that says to teach our leaders and set them straight. That's a new one for me.

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23 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

What would be a hypothetical solution to what to do about the baby?

Families make situations like that one work every day. 

There's nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom. If that's your thing, fine. And, there is nothing wrong with being a successful attorney....while being a wife and mother. Women do that all the time. 

Edited by MormonGator

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

There's nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom. If that's your thing, fine.

I agree. Sometimes I feel like the real question that shows how we feel about equality of the sexes is if we likewise see nothing wrong with being a stay at home dad.

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On 1/10/2020 at 5:38 AM, MormonGator said:

I think it's more a personality thing. I'm 100% confident that if we could transport people back to whatever time they were praising, they'd find something  else to complain about. If we could transport you back to the 1950's, you'd complain about your child dying of polio. And Playboy magazine being founded. And the birth control pill. Because yeah, those things took place in the 1950s. 

If you were transported back to the 1920's, you'd complain about how rich people were and those crazy young people dancing the Charleston.

If we could transport you back to the 1890's, you'd complain about....something. 

There's also the inherent flaw of complaining about the past on the internet. Which didn't exist in the past. So...

generic usage of the word "you". 

Clearly things were better back in the 1940's. There was no  @MormonGator back then......... or was there? 

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10 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I really need a quote from the church that says to teach our leaders and set them straight. That's a new one for me.

I am  not responsible for meeting your needs..  More so when to take it in directions I was not going. The Lord is the one that has plainly taught how authority is to be used.  He is the one that calls everyone to repentance.  The church does its part by encourage all of us to read/study/apply the things the Lord teaches.  How you twist that into saying it is OK to rebuke the prophet of God says more about your mindset then it does about my words .

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11 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I would love to hear your views on where and how it's "the Lord's way" where husband and wife are equals. Such is obviously not the case both physically and mentally.

Sure.  I can best explain my point of view by sharing from one of our Leaders, Elder M. Russel Ballard.  Of course, he is not alone in these views, but I think this will suffice.  

He said, "Let us never forget that we are the sons and daughters of God, equal in His sight with differing responsibilities and capabilities assigned by Him and given access to His priesthood power."

And "Men and women have different but equally valued roles. Just as a woman cannot conceive a child without a man, so a man cannot fully exercise the power of the priesthood to establish an eternal family without a woman. … In the eternal perspective, both the procreative power and the priesthood power are shared by husband and wife.”3

"Men and women are equal in God’s eyes and in the eyes of the Church, but equal does not mean the same. The responsibilities and divine gifts of men and women differ in their nature but not in their importance or influence"
   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/09/men-and-women-and-priesthood-power?lang=eng

 

Your turn.  Please explain how men and women are not equal mentally, in your opinion. 
 

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11 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Has anyone suggested we return to the 1950s as a solution to present-day problems? The OP, as I understand it was reflecting on Paul's teachings. Are you suggesting that Paul was wrong back then and is still wrong today, but that we're getting closer? I have to wonder what is considered ideal concerning the role of married men and women in the church.

People often speak of the 1950s nostagically, as if we could return to those days everything would be better.

I didn't say anything about Paul.  Frankly, I find his writings about women unclear, and so I look to our modern day Leaders for clarification.  Our modern leaders (as in the example I shared in my previous post) have explained clearly the role of men and women in the church.  Are you suggesting that our modern day leaders are wrong?  I ask because my opinions are coming from them and you seem to take issue with my ideas. 

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11 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm not sure that's true, but if you say so, fine. Looking at my friends, none of them are equal partners (which, I might add, needs to be defined, what is an equal partner. What does that mean?)

NONE?  That is a frightening thought, I hope you don't live in Utah surrounded by Latter-Day Saints. 

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51 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

People often speak of the 1950s nostagically, as if we could return to those days everything would be better.

One of the biggest lies out there. No, not everything was better in the past. Your (generic!) mind embraces the things you like from that era while selectively ignoring the things from that era that were miserable.


 

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

One of the biggest lies out there. No, not everything was better in the past. Your (generic!) mind embraces the things you like from that era while selectively ignoring the things from that era that were miserable.

Totally agree.  Reminds me of a funny story though....the first time I met my hubby--on a blind date--he showed up wearing a leather jacket and riding a motorcycle.  I thought, "Who does this guy think he is? Fonzie?"  

Silly me...the motorcycle was him being frugal...now I can't say I wasn't warned, LOL.  And the leather jacket was a safety precaution....not about style.  Hubby has no care for style.  I confess I love leather though.   

The point being Fonzie was only cool in the 1950's.  I was concerned when I thought Fonzie had come to my door, LOL!

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2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

I am  not responsible for meeting your needs..  More so when to take it in directions I was not going. The Lord is the one that has plainly taught how authority is to be used.  He is the one that calls everyone to repentance.  The church does its part by encourage all of us to read/study/apply the things the Lord teaches.  How you twist that into saying it is OK to rebuke the prophet of God says more about your mindset then it does about my words .

That's okay. I wasn't expecting that you could meet my needs. You asked me what more I needed. I told you. If you had no intention of supplying that, then why bother asking? 

It was a simple question which you chose not to answer. But, IMO, you made a statement that is plainly not in the scriptures nor is it taught in the church. The members do not instruct the leaders. That's what I believe you implied. I was hoping that you'd clarify, but I guess not.

Edited by brotherofJared

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13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Families make situations like that one work every day. 

There's nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom. If that's your thing, fine. And, there is nothing wrong with being a successful attorney....while being a wife and mother. Women do that all the time. 

I understand that families make similar situations like this work. One of the ways to make it work is divorce or one of the spouses chooses to give up their career and resent the child or the spouse for the prison they are now locked in. But my question was how one could make it work without that attending strife? How can they be equal partners?

"There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom"? Is that your solution? Tell the wife to forego her career options? What if she doesn't want to? Is there anything wrong with being a stay at home dad? 

In my hypothetical situation, the mom wasn't even going to live in the same state as the husband. She obviously wasn't going to be a stay at home anything and neither was the husband, but someone has to take care of the child. And who said anything about either of their careers being successful? There is an opportunity for a successful career, but the future is uncertain, but one thing is certain, the decisions being made right then would have a major impact on their future success.

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3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

He said, "Let us never forget that we are the sons and daughters of God, equal in His sight with differing responsibilities and capabilities assigned by Him and given access to His priesthood power."

Sorry. You see the word "equal" and I see the word "differing" (I disagree with Elder Ballard's statement "assigned by him"). Regardless of how equal we appear to God, we are still different. A man cannot do what the woman can do, but it seems that today, the idea is being presented that there is nothing that the man can do that the woman cannot. Well, there is one thing... But really, is the only difference reproduction?

IMO, we have always had the sex we have now. It was never different or unassigned. It has never been just about sex though. I believe we are two halves of the whole, not only in reproducing children were we are forced to participate (willingly, I admit, but the idea is that if we do not cooperate, it would be impossible to have children) but in living and having a whole life. 

My wife once asked me to write a talk for her to deliver in church. I wrote it, but it was not the talk she gave. Mine was clinical and logical providing evidence to support my conclusions. She used my talk as an outline, but she provided none of the logic but instead drew from the heart. It was a better talk than I would have given. I'm not saying that she's a better speaker than I am, but there is a definite difference in our points of view. We were meant to work together from the beginning and to learn and grow together. Neither should be the object of the other to be used to obtain any selfish objective. That is what equal persons are who are so totally different from each other. It is the whole being (the husband and the wife) who are equal in the sight of God.

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