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Jamie123

Education works best when...

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

A real grinding of the gears there.

Intentionally or not, it's beautifully true. When you're a kid, your teachers tell you to do one thing, and your parents tell you to do another. And they both punish you for doing what the other says.

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Fortunately, in the age of email, I'm finding my kids' teachers are able to use it.  We've done a pretty good job of teacher/parent ganging up on the poor squidlets.  

Back in the day before I cared, I was honored to be the reason schools had to hang up signs against my behavior.  You might think you have an idiotproof system of dropping off kids, but let me just beta test that for you.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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11 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Intentionally or not, it's beautifully true. When you're a kid, your teachers tell you to do one thing, and your parents tell you to do another. And they both punish you for doing what the other says.

This is true in my neck of the woods but in my house, the kid doesn't get punished for doing what I say.  The teacher/principal/school board does.  It's been 3 years since I've walked into any of those offices (I refuse to fight my kids' battles in high school - if they haven't learned to do that themselves, they shouldn't be in high school) but there was a time when the words, "Mrs. anatess2 is waiting to see you" would make the school board squirm.

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is true in my neck of the woods but in my house, the kid doesn't get punished for doing what I say.  The teacher/principal/school board does.  It's been 3 years since I've walked into any of those offices (I refuse to fight my kids' battles in high school - if they haven't learned to do that themselves, they shouldn't be in high school) but there was a time when the words, "Mrs. anatess2 is waiting to see you" would make the school board squirm.

You're a hard woman Anatess... *shudder*

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6 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

You're a hard woman Anatess... *shudder*

You haven't seen our school board... you think US politicians are bad?  You should see the school board...

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Having thought about it a bit more, I think the wisdom of this poster may be deeper still. In education, there is often a big difference between the lesson intended, or the lesson perceived by the shallow-minded, and the actual take-home lesson:

  • Intended lesson: If you do as you are told by older, wiser and better people, and follow all the rules they have laid down, then you will not come to any harm. It's quite easy isn't it? Follow the rules and you'll be happy. Disobey the rules and...that's when the problems will start.
  • Actual Take-Home Lesson: "Older, wiser and better" people disagree with each other profoundly, and some of them are even at odds with themselves, and the rules they set down contradict each other. Thus whatever you do you'll get something wrong. And knowing this this is a valuable education.

Kids were once told "speak when you're spoken to" and "don't answer back" - precepts so cliched that no one notices that they contradict each other. "Don't answer back" puzzled the heck out of me as a kid. What was I supposed to do when a teacher spoke to me? Ignore him? What it really meant (though it was too much to expect any adult to explain this) was something like "When I tell you to do something, do it and don't argue". But what if the instruction made no sense? Like for example if you were told to report to Mr. Bloggs' office, and you happened to know that Mr. Bloggs was home sick. If you pointed this out to the teacher, was that still "answering back"? And if you went to Mr. Bloggs' office and sat there all day waiting for someone you knew full well wasn't coming, they'd accuse you of "not using your common sense" - but to use your common sense would entail "answering back" - so which precept should you obey? In short, the rules don't always help and you have to think for yourself and take a risk that you might be wrong. Learning this is part of growing up, so being taught that "good little boys" and "good little girls" can live forever in peace by following an all-encompassing set of rules, by people blinkered enough to think that that is genuinely the case, and learning for yourself that this is actually a bunch of baloney, may not necessarily be a bad thing. [End of rant]

Edited by Jamie123

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4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Having thought about it a bit more, I think the wisdom of this poster may be deeper still. In education, there is often a big difference between the lesson intended, or the lesson perceived by the shallow-minded, and the actual take-home lesson:

  • Intended lesson: If you do as you are told by older, wiser and better people, and follow all the rules they have laid down, then you will not come to any harm. It's quite easy isn't it? Follow the rules and you'll be happy. Disobey the rules and...that's when the problems will start.
  • Actual Take-Home Lesson: "Older, wiser and better" people disagree with each other profoundly, and some of them are even at odds with themselves, and the rules they set down contradict each other. Thus whatever you do you'll get something wrong. And knowing this this is a valuable education.

Kids were once told "speak when you're spoken to" and "don't answer back" - precepts so cliched that no one notices that they contradict each other. "Don't answer back" puzzled the heck out of me as a kid. What was I supposed to do when a teacher spoke to me? Ignore him? What it really meant (though it was too much to expect any adult to explain this) was something like "When I tell you to do something, do it and don't argue". But what if the instruction made no sense? Like for example if you were told to report to Mr. Bloggs' office, and you happened to know that Mr. Bloggs was home sick. If you pointed this out to the teacher, was that still "answering back"? And if you went to Mr. Bloggs' office and sat there all day waiting for someone you knew full well wasn't coming, they'd accuse you of "not using your common sense" - but to use your common sense would entail "answering back" - so which precept should you obey? In short, the rules don't always help and you have to think for yourself and take a risk that you might be wrong. Learning this is part of growing up, so being taught that "good little boys" and "good little girls" can live forever in peace by following an all-encompassing set of rules, by people blinkered enough to think that that is genuinely the case, and learning for yourself that this is actually a bunch of baloney, may not necessarily be a bad thing. [End of rant]

From the Asian perspective:

The first lesson Asian children learn is Obedience (also tied to Honor).  Obedience without question.  This also goes with Trust.  As a toddler, you learn to trust your parents/elders so completely that you will Obey without having to understand why.  So that, when a 3-year-old is about to cross the street on the path of an oncoming car, the parent can say "STOP RIGHT NOW!" and the 3 year old stops without needing to ask "Why?".  This is what we refer to as "talking back" - the lack of trust, honor, and obedience.  Asian tradition don't normally send their toddlers to school.  That's too young to transfer the trust to someone else that even the parents can't really trust.  So this lesson gets to be learned line upon line, precept upon precept.

When the kid gets older, then the parents start to teach the Why of things.  So, "Don't cross the street without looking left and right" becomes the instruction that can come with the child asking, "Why?" and the parents explaining the why at the child's level.  This has now progressed line upon line to the point beyond Obedience through Trust to Obedience through Knowledge.  The child, of course, doesn't forget the Trust - the child still obeys the parents without question when the situation presents itself.  But this Trust doesn't easily transfer to Teachers.  So that, when a child enters school, the teacher first needs to gain the student's Trust before he can gain Obedience - and that Trust is gained by the parents teaching the child that it is okay to extend the trust to a specific teacher.

So when it comes to conflicting instructions - the instructions of the parents and those the parents extended their trust to gets listened to, the others will be listened to as long as it doesn't contradict the other instructions. 

And when it comes to things like "Don't talk back" and the teacher asking the child a question... the child would have been taught at home when to talk and when not to and how to talk and how not to before they start school.  That conflict only exists when you send off your child to be taught by strangers before he matures enough to learn when to talk and when not to talk which are basic behavior instructions learned at home.

 

 

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On 1/15/2020 at 9:35 AM, Jamie123 said:

Intentionally or not, it's beautifully true. When you're a kid, your teachers tell you to do one thing, and your parents tell you to do another. And they both punish you for doing what the other says.

Obviously someone who did not attend Vatican II - era Catholic schools. :D It was common practice for parents to agree with the nuns. If you came home and complained that Sister did this or that, or that you got in trouble, many kids would get yelled at or get spankings because you were supposed to mind Sister, and if you had issues, it was on you for not obeying. 

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8 hours ago, dahlia said:

Obviously someone who did not attend Vatican II - era Catholic schools. :D It was common practice for parents to agree with the nuns. If you came home and complained that Sister did this or that, or that you got in trouble, many kids would get yelled at or get spankings because you were supposed to mind Sister, and if you had issues, it was on you for not obeying. 

"Don't you go picking up any bad habits off them pesky nuns!" Hahahaha!

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