askandanswer Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 Our Sunday School lesson today was about Lehi’s dream. I see this dream as a metaphor for our journey through mortality towards exhaltation. In his dream, Lehi saw both helps to exhaltation – the path and the iron road – and hindrances – the mists of darkness and the filthy river. It occurred to me that in real life, in this mortal situation we are all now in, both the nature and the degree of the helps and hindrances, and the relative balance between helps and hindrances, might not be random. In the context of Lehi’s dream, how was it decided how thick, or thin, the mists of darkness should be, and how was it decided how wide or narrow the path should be? The value of these variables would have had a significant impact on how many people ended up at the tree and how many ended up at the river. To give a more concrete example, one help we have on our path is the guidance of the Spirit, and one hindrance is the temptations of the devil. I suspect that to a certain extent these two forces – the pull towards good from the Spirit, and the pull towards evil from the devil – are an ever present, constant part of the conditions under which we all live, but the degree to which they influence individual’s actions depends to some extent on factors specific to the actor. So then I started to wonder who decided, and how was it decided, what the helps and hindrances would be, what the balance between them would be, and what factors determined what the balance was going to be. It seems to me that the relative balance between these two forces will have a greater impact than a great many other factors in determining the ultimate outcome of the Plan of Salvation, so I think it might be worth wondering how that balance came to be. I’m wondering if it’s something that God decided entirely according to His own free will, or was it something that had to be decided in accordance with some sort of universal law that God is subject to, or did He simply approve a recommendation from the relevant Plan of Salvation design committee, or perhaps it is what it is because that’s how it has always been, worlds without end. Any thoughts, comments, questions or answers on any part of these musings would be welcome. I realise that much of this is speculative and that there might not be a lot that is readily transparent in the scriptures or modern day prophetic teachings on these questions however I don’t see that as a barrier to considering different possibilities; it just means that we have to exercise caution in how much reliance we can place on any conclusions we may come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) On 1/19/2020 at 4:05 AM, askandanswer said: Our Sunday School lesson today was about Lehi’s dream. I see this dream as a metaphor for our journey through mortality towards exhaltation. In his dream, Lehi saw both helps to exhaltation – the path and the iron road – and hindrances – the mists of darkness and the filthy river. It occurred to me that in real life, in this mortal situation we are all now in, both the nature and the degree of the helps and hindrances, and the relative balance between helps and hindrances, might not be random. In the context of Lehi’s dream, how was it decided how thick, or thin, the mists of darkness should be, and how was it decided how wide or narrow the path should be? The value of these variables would have had a significant impact on how many people ended up at the tree and how many ended up at the river. To give a more concrete example, one help we have on our path is the guidance of the Spirit, and one hindrance is the temptations of the devil. I suspect that to a certain extent these two forces – the pull towards good from the Spirit, and the pull towards evil from the devil – are an ever present, constant part of the conditions under which we all live, but the degree to which they influence individual’s actions depends to some extent on factors specific to the actor. So then I started to wonder who decided, and how was it decided, what the helps and hindrances would be, what the balance between them would be, and what factors determined what the balance was going to be. It seems to me that the relative balance between these two forces will have a greater impact than a great many other factors in determining the ultimate outcome of the Plan of Salvation, so I think it might be worth wondering how that balance came to be. I’m wondering if it’s something that God decided entirely according to His own free will, or was it something that had to be decided in accordance with some sort of universal law that God is subject to, or did He simply approve a recommendation from the relevant Plan of Salvation design committee, or perhaps it is what it is because that’s how it has always been, worlds without end. Any thoughts, comments, questions or answers on any part of these musings would be welcome. I realise that much of this is speculative and that there might not be a lot that is readily transparent in the scriptures or modern day prophetic teachings on these questions however I don’t see that as a barrier to considering different possibilities; it just means that we have to exercise caution in how much reliance we can place on any conclusions we may come up with. I think the ultimate outcome of the Plan of Salvation is a matter of individual exercise of agency and choice relative to the absolute atoning power of Christ, and not the variable strength of factors that form our opportunities to choose between good and evil. Because of His atonement, we are not, in the long run, tested any more or less than is expedient. Our perception of these factors and their relative strength, I believe, is a function of our perception and comprehension of the light that shines in darkness, abilities we are not fully in control of, at least in mortality (after all, it is a test).we may well ahve been part of the design of mortal probation, in line with Acts 17: 26-31: 26 And [God} hath amade of bone cblood dall enations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath fdetermined the gtimes before happointed, and the ibounds of their habitation; 27 That they should aseek the Lord, bif haply they might cfeel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we alive, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his boffspring. ... 30 And the times of this aignorance God bwinked at; but now ccommandeth all men every where to drepent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will ajudge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath bordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath craised him from the dead. Edited January 20, 2020 by CV75 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
askandanswer Posted January 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 2 hours ago, CV75 said: I think the ultimate outcome of the Plan of Salvation is a matter of individual exercise of agency and choice relative to the absolute atoning power of Christ, and not the variable strength of factors that form our opportunities to choose between good and evil. Yes, I agree, so much depends on the atonement and our individual choices, but it seems to me that the choices we make are very much influenced by the relative strengths of good and evil influences operating on us at the time we make those choices. The factors that shape the setting in which we make those choices are likely to have an impact on the choices made within that setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 13 minutes ago, askandanswer said: Yes, I agree, so much depends on the atonement and our individual choices, but it seems to me that the choices we make are very much influenced by the relative strengths of good and evil influences operating on us at the time we make those choices. The factors that shape the setting in which we make those choices are likely to have an impact on the choices made within that setting. If I'm understanding you correctly, you've hit on something I have thought a lot about as well. Are you familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment or the Mitford experiment. Those really raise the question in my mind about factors that shape our responses and choices. Thank goodness Christ is our judge, that's all I can say because He understands all this better than we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 1:05 AM, askandanswer said: how was it decided how thick, or thin, the mists of darkness should be, and how was it decided how wide or narrow the path should be? The commentary on Lehi's dream does not have any context to determine thick, thin, wide or narrow. Everyone's path is different. The Iron Rod is God's guide: the gospel, prayer, scriptures, ordinances. The Iron rod is firm and unchanging. But the path is determined by the people that walk along near the iron rod. People are always going away from the iron rod and returning, so the path has been trodden over and over by many feet. but everyone walks off the path at some point (except Christ). My path will look different from your path. Where I got off and back on is probably not very well determined. There probably is a pathway that leads up to the big and spacious building. But the path along the iron rod is well determined. Many people have clung to the iron rod while progressing toward the tree of life so it is well demarcated. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 3 hours ago, askandanswer said: Yes, I agree, so much depends on the atonement and our individual choices, but it seems to me that the choices we make are very much influenced by the relative strengths of good and evil influences operating on us at the time we make those choices. The factors that shape the setting in which we make those choices are likely to have an impact on the choices made within that setting. I think the power we grant those influences is a matter of choice. Some influences are moral, and some are circumstantial (the time, place, conditions of birth and life; genetics, others' agency, etc.). We chose to be tested, and we have the light of Christ with which to make choices in the test. In other words, the relative strengths of good and evil influences operating on us at the time we make our choices are determined by us. When we don't comprehend them we are not accountable. Anddenex and askandanswer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) In my minds eye (I openly admit I may have misunderstood what you are specifying) if we are trying to determine how dense the mist was or how wide the path was we are probably looking to much in the minutia of the dream. In our life, we have access to the Spirit of Christ and to the Spirit anytime we are enticed by the world or from the temptations of the devil. If we determine the reason someone did not find the path (in comparison to someone who did) was their mist was denser than another persons, then ultimately the individual could blame God the Father for hindering their way or the path back to him. The reason they fell into the river or were drowned in the river is due to the Father creating a denser mist thus causing their failure while decreasing the mist's dense for another person. This would be a respecter of persons, which we know God is not. I would agree with @CV75 that the power given to the mist and its influence on us is solely due to our choices in this life. Edited January 21, 2020 by Anddenex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
askandanswer Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Anddenex said: In my minds eye (I openly admit I may have misunderstood what you are specifying) if we are trying to determine how dense the mist was or how wide the path was we are probably looking to much in the minutia of the dream. What I'm trying to get at here is the question of the balance between those forces/influences that help us get to heaven, and those influences which hinder us our journey. I'm using the idea of a particularly dense mist of darkness as indicative of a strong, powerful, influence seeking to hinder our journey and the width of the path as indicative of a safe, easy, path. So, to restate my question, how and by whom, and on what basis was it determined how strong/powerful/effective/ successful the hindering influences would be, and how strong/powerful/effective/successful the helpful influences would be, and what the relative balance between these two opposing forces would be. I agree in part with @CV75's comment that to some extent, the amount of power those influences have over us is a matter of choice, but I also believe that evil has its own power, seperate from, and additional to, whatever power we may grant it, just as do righteous influences. Evil and good influences, ie, thick mists and wide paths, are part of the environment in which we live and I suspect that that sort of good and evil is beyond our ability to influence. Evil and good influences also impact on us individually, and that is something that we can do something about. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV75 Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 10 hours ago, askandanswer said: What I'm trying to get at here is the question of the balance between those forces/influences that help us get to heaven, and those influences which hinder us our journey. I'm using the idea of a particularly dense mist of darkness as indicative of a strong, powerful, influence seeking to hinder our journey and the width of the path as indicative of a safe, easy, path. So, to restate my question, how and by whom, and on what basis was it determined how strong/powerful/effective/ successful the hindering influences would be, and how strong/powerful/effective/successful the helpful influences would be, and what the relative balance between these two opposing forces would be. I agree in part with @CV75's comment that to some extent, the amount of power those influences have over us is a matter of choice, but I also believe that evil has its own power, seperate from, and additional to, whatever power we may grant it, just as do righteous influences. Evil and good influences, ie, thick mists and wide paths, are part of the environment in which we live and I suspect that that sort of good and evil is beyond our ability to influence. Evil and good influences also impact on us individually, and that is something that we can do something about. Evil does have its own power and can be very challenging. The scriptures describe how Joseph Smith and Moses were opposed in great measure, but by faith in Christ they chose not to be overcome. I think the adversary is just as economical as the Lord and expends the degree of power he supposes will frighten or fool us (and he won't be too obvious to his targets), just as the Lord gives us the light we are prepared to receive and act upon, and we must cultivate sensitivity to and awareness of Him to seek progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 11 hours ago, askandanswer said: What I'm trying to get at here is the question of the balance between those forces/influences that help us get to heaven, and those influences which hinder us our journey. I'm using the idea of a particularly dense mist of darkness as indicative of a strong, powerful, influence seeking to hinder our journey and the width of the path as indicative of a safe, easy, path. So, to restate my question, how and by whom, and on what basis was it determined how strong/powerful/effective/ successful the hindering influences would be, and how strong/powerful/effective/successful the helpful influences would be, and what the relative balance between these two opposing forces would be. I agree in part with @CV75's comment that to some extent, the amount of power those influences have over us is a matter of choice, but I also believe that evil has its own power, seperate from, and additional to, whatever power we may grant it, just as do righteous influences. Evil and good influences, ie, thick mists and wide paths, are part of the environment in which we live and I suspect that that sort of good and evil is beyond our ability to influence. Evil and good influences also impact on us individually, and that is something that we can do something about. Thank you. That clarifies the misunderstanding I was having. Here are some scriptures I would think answer or provide an avenue for the answer to the question provided: 1) 1 Corinthians 10: 13, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 2) Job experience as provided in our scriptures -- Old Testament. 3) Doctrine and Covenants 101: 78, "That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment." 4) Doctrine and Covenants 93: 31, "Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light." From these verses there are three persons involved -- the determining factors -- as to the strength/power/effectiveness/success of the hindering influences that will come in our lives: 1) Godhead, 2) Satan, 3) Me. Our Savior is the only person that truly knows the strength of a temptation as he never gave into any temptation. With Job though we are shown a communication between the Lord and Lucifer. In light of what happened to Job we know that the Lord would have never given Job a temptation that he would not have been able to bear without the Lord and calling upon the Lord, and we know Job experienced something awful. Me. This involves the agency of man. I am reminded of a story (maybe shared in Ensign or General Conference) of three best mates growing up. Two mates decided to serve a mission and one friend did not. As time goes by they lost connection with the friend who didn't serve a mission. The two friends decided one day to help the homeless, or came across a homeless man and decided to help him (I don't remember the exact details of the story). To make this shorter, the homeless man ended up being their best mate who they at first didn't recognize because he had changed so much. The friend used his agency not to serve a mission and ended up using drugs. How different would the mist be for this homeless friend if he had served a mission and decided not to choose to do drugs? The initial enticement of using drugs probably was similar to mine experiences in my youth. Through his choice the darkness became thicker, stronger, and ultimately hindering his progression (he fell away into forbidden paths). Ultimately, as the scriptures says God will not allow a temptation to come upon us without a way of escape (and one we can bear), then God is the primary reason and who determines the strength/power/effect a mist may have in our lives. Lucifer appears to be another factor in accordance with God. God will not allow him to destroy us, we ultimately destroy ourselves. askandanswer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTanakas Posted February 2, 2020 Report Share Posted February 2, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 4:05 AM, askandanswer said: Our Sunday School lesson today was about Lehi’s dream. I see this dream as a metaphor for our journey through mortality towards exhaltation. In his dream, Lehi saw both helps to exhaltation – the path and the iron road – and hindrances – the mists of darkness and the filthy river. I was confused when I read this lesson. It was mentioned that Lehi saw a fountain of filthy water (1 Nephi 12:16) and a river of filthy water (1 Nephi 15:26-26). Then Mormon 6:4 says the hill Cumorah was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains. What is the difference in the fountain and the river Lehi saw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 hours ago, TheTanakas said: I was confused when I read this lesson. It was mentioned that Lehi saw a fountain of filthy water (1 Nephi 12:16) and a river of filthy water (1 Nephi 15:26-26). Then Mormon 6:4 says the hill Cumorah was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains. What is the difference in the fountain and the river Lehi saw? The word "fountain" just means a source or spring from which water comes out of the ground, not some ornate cascade of water spraying up dramatically. The filthy river and its source (fountain) represent hell and its depths (1 Nephi 12:16). This is in contrast to Christ, who is the fountain of all life, and who in this vision is represented by the tree. Lehi may have assumed later that the water he saw represented Christ as well, though Nephi informs his brothers that the waters represented filthiness, which their father missed. Note that the angel who instructed Nephi told him that the tree of life was the very fountain of living waters, "which waters are a representation of the love of God". So Nephi's understanding of his father's dream, based on his (Nephi's) own angelic encounter and explanation, was that the river of water was filthy, representing hell and the destruction of those who do not depend upon Christ. Here's another, closely related but slightly different, viewpoint. Nephi saw a portion of Lehi's dream along with his own vision from the angelic visitation. It's possible that Lehi actually saw two distinct sources of water, one by the tree of life and another of filthy water, and that Nephi didn't pick up on the distinction. Note that 1 Nephi 8:13 speaks of a river by the tree of life, one along which the rod of iron (word of God—another representation of Christ) runs. Together with the above-mentioned angelic teaching of the fountain of living waters being a representation of God's love (i.e. of Christ), I find it possible—not a sure thing by any means but not unlikely—that Lehi may have seen two different sources (fountains) of water, one by the tree representing Christ and the other of filthy water representing hell and its depths. Thus the water would have represented either the salvation of God or the destruction of Satan, depending on whether it was pure or filthy. As for the Cumorah description, Lehi's vision doesn't have anything to do with the description of the land of Cumorah. There is no connection between the two scriptures. TheTanakas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 4:05 AM, askandanswer said: Our Sunday School lesson today was about Lehi’s dream. Ours was too. Hmmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonah Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 4:05 AM, askandanswer said: Any thoughts, comments, questions or answers on any part of these musings would be welcome. Lehi says in 2 Nephi 1:24 - "Rebel no more against your brother, whose views have been glorious, and who hath kept the commandments from the time that we left Jerusalem; and who hath been an instrument in the hands of God, in bringing us forth into the land of promise; for were it not for him, we must have perished with hunger in the wilderness". Does this mean there was no cloud by day and fire by night provided by God during their travel in the wilderness and that hunting by weapons was the only provision of food after the supplies that they took with them out of Jerusalem were exhausted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
askandanswer Posted February 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 17 hours ago, Jonah said: Lehi says in 2 Nephi 1:24 - "Rebel no more against your brother, whose views have been glorious, and who hath kept the commandments from the time that we left Jerusalem; and who hath been an instrument in the hands of God, in bringing us forth into the land of promise; for were it not for him, we must have perished with hunger in the wilderness". Does this mean there was no cloud by day and fire by night provided by God during their travel in the wilderness and that hunting by weapons was the only provision of food after the supplies that they took with them out of Jerusalem were exhausted? There is no mention in the Book of Mormon about the Lord leading Lehi and his family through the wilderness by means of a cloud and fire, as was the case with the children of Israel during the exodus and travails after their departure from Egypt. Much of the direction they needed was provided by the liahona. There is one verse that suggests that Lehi's family had no fire at all in the wilderness until they were ready to start building a boat. 11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire. 12 For the Lord had not hitherto suffered that we should make much fire, as we journeyed in the wilderness; for he said: I will make thy food become sweet, that ye cook it not; 13 And I will also be your light in the wilderness; and I will prepare the way before you, if it so be that ye shall keep my commandments; wherefore, inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall be led towards the promised land; and ye shall know that it is by me that ye are led. (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 17:11 - 13) First Nephi 8:1 suggests that they did not rely solely on hunting to obtain food: 1 AND it came to pass that we had gathered together all manner of seeds of every kind, both of grain of every kind, and also of the seeds of fruit of every kind. (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 8:1) Jonah and SilentOne 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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