Vort

"No one likes Bernie Sanders": Hillary Clinton

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I'm hearing conservative voices more and more, hoping Bernie becomes the democrat nominee.  Because then America will have a genuine clear choice between capitalism and socialism.

These voices are assuming the voting populace will have a certain level of education and familiarity with socialism.  Not sure if I'm as optimistic, given the number of people with which I argue online.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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14 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Including you apparently. I told you this new tattoo looked awful, but you just wouldn't stop shouting "Feel the Bern!"

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Dude! They said those pictures wouldn't be published! I was young and needed the money! 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

These voices are assuming the voting populace will have a certain level of education and familiarity with socialism. 

Therein lies the problem.  There aren't many under the age of 30 that know what Socialism is anymore.  Interviews with that age demographic asked about socialism tend to answer that it's being really 'social' and 'really nice to everyone' and being 'fair to everyone' and have zero education about it.  I clearly remember my government classes teaching me Capitalism, Socialism, Communism (and Marxism).  I've heard most schools don't teach these anymore.  Judging from the 'on the spot' interviews I've watched and the articles I've read written by the 18-29 age demographic....  this just might be true.  In order to vote intelligently, you have to educate yourself to what you are voting for.  :) 

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5 minutes ago, Budget said:

Therein lies the problem.  There aren't many under the age of 30 that know what Socialism is anymore.  Interviews with that age demographic asked about socialism tend to answer that it's being really 'social' and 'really nice to everyone' and being 'fair to everyone' and have zero education about it.  I clearly remember my government classes teaching me Capitalism, Socialism, Communism (and Marxism).  I've heard most schools don't teach these anymore.  Judging from the 'on the spot' interviews I've watched and the articles I've read written by the 18-29 age demographic....  this just might be true.  In order to vote intelligently, you have to educate yourself to what you are voting for.  :) 

I hear you budget, and I'm worried too. 

However, McGovern thought that the youth vote would push him into office overwhelmingly, especially because the voting age was just lowered to 18. Half of them voted for Nixon, and McGovern was crushed. Polls said that 65-70% of the youth vote would vote for him. So while I'm concerned about socialisms popularity, I'm not overly pessimistic. 

Edited by MormonGator

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

However, McGovern thought that the youth vote would push him into office overwhelmingly, especially because the voting age was just lowered to 18. Half of them voted for Nixon, and McGovern was crushed. Polls said that 65-70% of the youth vote would vote for him. So while I'm concerned about socialisms popularity, I'm not overly pessimistic. 

Eighteen-year-olds should not be voting.

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Just now, Vort said:

Eighteen-year-olds should not be voting.

Most don't, so don't worry about it. 


But you can enter into a legal contract at age 18, so you should be allowed to vote as well. And, even if you don't think they should be allowed to vote, they are allowed to vote, so you need to be the one who adapts. 

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

But you can enter into a legal contract at age 18, so you should be allowed to vote as well.

Non sequitur. Entering into a legal contract and exercising the franchise are entirely different matters. Chinese nationals can enter into contracts. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to vote.

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And, even if you don't think they should be allowed to vote, they are allowed to vote, so you need to be the one who adapts.

Obviously true, but irrelevant. If I state a truth or opinion that is not legally supported, saying "You have to adapt" is useless. I already know I have to adapt. That's why I said that eighteen-year-olds should not be allowed to vote. If it weren't counterfactual, I would not have said it.

By the way, the whole excuse for lowering the voting age to 18 was the (il)logical argument that said that if a person was old enough to be drafted and potentially give up his life for his country, he was old enough to vote. So the "enter into contracts" thing doesn't really have anything to do with anything. It was a purely political move to lower the voting age to 18. Sadly, that genie isn't likely to go back into the bottle. But it should.

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3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Non sequitur. Entering into a legal contract and exercising the franchise are entirely different matters. Chinese nationals can enter into contracts. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to vote.

Obviously true, but irrelevant. If I state a truth or opinion that is not legally supported, saying "You have to adapt" is useless. I already know I have to adapt. That's why I said that eighteen-year-olds should not be allowed to vote. If it weren't counterfactual, I would not have said it.

By the way, the whole excuse for lowering the voting age to 18 was the (il)logical argument that said that if a person was old enough to be drafted and potentially give up his life for his country, he was old enough to vote. So the "enter into contracts" thing doesn't really have anything to do with anything. It was a purely political move to lower the voting age to 18. Sadly, that genie isn't likely to go back into the bottle. But it should.

Women, homosexuals and African Americans can vote too. Sorry.  

Edited by MormonGator

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55 minutes ago, Vort said:

Eighteen-year-olds should not be voting.

I disagree. As long as 18 year olds can potentially be drafted they deserve the vote. It's beyond unreasonable for you (generic) to tell a person "you have no say in the political arena, but here's a rifle go charge into no man's land and die for it". Now if you (specific) want to talk about rolling back the age a person can be drafted or make it so if you serve or are asked to serve in the military you get the vote but everyone else has to be older (21 to 25) that's different and I can see arguments for those viewpoints.

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49 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Women, homosexuals and African Americans can vote too. Sorry.  

I assume you were trying to be funny, MG. But that was not funny. It was an implicit and very nasty insult. Uncalled for.

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6 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I disagree. As long as 18 year olds can potentially be drafted they deserve the vote. It's beyond unreasonable for you (generic) to tell a person "you have no say in the political arena, but here's a rifle go charge into no man's land and die for it". Now if you (specific) want to talk about rolling back the age a person can be drafted or make it so if you serve or are asked to serve in the military you get the vote but everyone else has to be older (21 to 25) that's different and I can see arguments for those viewpoints.

There actually shouldn't be a draft at all. 

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10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Women, homosexuals and African Americans can vote too. Sorry.  

I’m sort of flirting with the idea that we should limit voting age to 30 unless a person has served/is serving in the military, or is a net taxpayer (ie not receiving more in government bennies than they are receiving in taxes).

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

There actually shouldn't be a draft at all. 

Generally I agree with you. However, sometimes the need is so great that in order to protect the country everyone needs to participate (World War 2 for example). I'm ok with a draft in those circumstances, as long as there are protected options for conscientious objectors.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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The more cool science fiction I read, the more appealing I find the whole notion of "You get to be a voting citizen by doing a stint in the military".  Bifurcated classes of citizenship with different levels of rights and responsibilities sound horrible at first blush, but seeing how it works in Israel and other places make me think twice.

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3 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Generally I agree with you. However, sometimes the need is so great that in order to protect the country everyone needs to participate (World War 2 for example). I'm ok with a draft in those circumstances as long as their are protected options for conscientious objectors.

Believe it or not, I sort of agree with you on that. 

:: sigh :: My political idealogical purity is as tainted as my religious purity. 

Edited by MormonGator

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Believe it or not, I sort of agree with you on that. 

:: sigh :: My idealogical purity is as tainted as my religious purity. 

I guess you'll have to turn in your Any Rand award for Libertarian purity. Don't worry though! We Military Industrial Complex fanboys welcome you with open arms😉

Edited by Midwest LDS

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Just now, Midwest LDS said:

I guess you'll have to turn in your Any Rand award for Libertarian purity. Don't worry though! We Military Industrial Complex fanboys welcome you with open arms😉

Actually, I lost my Ayn Rand purity award decades ago when I tried to argue that The Fountainhead was superior to Atlas Shrugged. Something I still think is correct to this day. No one is more emotional than an Objectivist when you imply Atlas Shrugged wasn't very good. 

But I do love We The Living and The Fountainhead.  

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31 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I disagree. As long as 18 year olds can potentially be drafted they deserve the vote. It's beyond unreasonable for you (generic) to tell a person "you have no say in the political arena, but here's a rifle go charge into no man's land and die for it".

Why? They are two utterly different things. Extending your logic immediately leads to the idea that an 18-year-old should be able to be the POTUS.

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11 minutes ago, Vort said:

Why? They are two utterly different things. Extending your logic immediately leads to the idea that an 18-year-old should be able to be the POTUS.

Not really. Wars are merely politics by other means as described by Clausewitz. If some old guys in Washington have the right to send me (generic) to my death, I should have to right to choose which old guys are in charge. My (generic) life is at stake. Unless and until we want to change things up like @NeuroTypical and @Just_A_Guy have suggested, 18 year olds deserve the right to help shape the political landscape. 

Edited by Midwest LDS

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1 minute ago, Midwest LDS said:

Not really. Wars are merely politics by other means as described by Clausewitz. If some old guys in Washington have the right to send me (generic) to my death, I should have to right to choose which old guys are in charge. My (generic) life is at stake. Unless and until we want to change things up like @NeuroTypical and @Just_A_Guy have suggested, 18 year olds deserve the right to help shape the political landscape. 

All true.

 An 18 year old has the right to free speech, to open a bakery that serves who they want, to own a gun-and those rights are being taken away from her. She has the right to vote for people who support her views. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

All true.

 An 18 year old has the right to free speech, to open a bakery that serves who they want, to own a gun-and those rights are being taken away from her. She has the right to vote for people who support her views. 

Also good points.

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