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NeuroTypical

BYU to allow same-sex dancing at annual competition

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anatess2--good point.  In a way I guess the same-sex couples will have a leg up because the world likes to reward novelty.  On one hand they are at a disadvantage due to visual appeal and likely trying something new in their dance career (this isn't quite the same as boys in a girls' track race where boys are sure to outpace them even with a few late adjustments in life, we don't have evidence that men are better followers than women or women are better leaders in dance).  On the other hand they may just win because of that point, people feeling sorry, people wanting to make a statement, or advance a cause.  We'll see what happens.

JohnsonJones--you are right on point with the whole youth leaving once they leave home--this is definitely a trend.  It makes me feel sick that a parent could try and try and kids will just slip through our fingers if we don't do everything right.  It may not seem like it, but if you think about it there are MORE young adult programs than youth programs in the church, here are some of them: Institute, Education Week and other Conferences, Pathway (now everyone can go to a church school and I wouldn't be surprised if it became as advertised as missions since the retention numbers for going to a church school are good), Single Adult congregations (hereafter called YSA wards) stuffed with activities, Home Evening, church reponsibilities, and Missions--multiple mission opportunities for women.  The church now has a weekly YA (young adult) feature, they stopped separating single and single student wards to improve retention, and there's been a effort to include young marrieds from what I've seen on the Church News, but until I see something substantial come out of headquarters, singles continue to be a top focus.  Leaked videos that someone took showed great concern among the church's authorities for the YSA's according to Deseret News' transcripts.  For the youth, the program is gone, really the program is just make sure you do what you've been counseled to do plus meet ups for seminary and sponsored activities and keep on making goals but youth don't have to share them.  There is definitely a realization that the kids will be okay if their parents are strong, YSA's are at risk and that shift is happening now.  I think your prayers and the prayers of others for singles are having their day now.  I really do believe that these gradual changes are due to Christ changing the church slowly and sustainably to bring about justice like he said he would in Book of Mormon: Jacob 5.  I used to say the church wants or the church thinks, but now I think of the church being Christ's as much as Peter did, and that's why I phrase things that way.  I don't think it's pure bureacracy...yes they are people that Christ has to work through and that means vulnerabilities, but I had a choice to make...were all those seemingly unjust things that happened in the scriptures (stoning, sacrificing sweet lambs, polygamy, ditching parents to get sealed--adopted--to your favorite church leader in the eternities, and the like) just a group of culture-constrained people doing what works for them and Christ can't get through much and the church is on course for apostasy again, or is the general rule that Christ is at the head, revelation is real, nothing will stop His grand designs to unfold before His coming, and the policies set forth by God will all work out with occasionally bad calls causing minor hiccups? 

 I guess I shouldn't worry too much about what BYU does or doesn't because it's as likely to derail most young adults as people getting into the Mississippi River and hoping to change the course with their hands.  Oh well, same-sex match-ups dancing--what a silly and sadly confused world, what else is new.

 

Edited by Sort-of Young Mom
realized something sounded bad, so I needed to edit, wanted to be clear

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16 hours ago, Sort-of Young Mom said:

anatess2--good point.  In a way I guess the same-sex couples will have a leg up because the world likes to reward novelty.  On one hand they are at a disadvantage due to visual appeal and likely trying something new in their dance career (this isn't quite the same as boys in a girls' track race where boys are sure to outpace them even with a few late adjustments in life, we don't have evidence that men are better followers than women or women are better leaders in dance).

Don't underestimate the power of males to directly mimic the movements and visage of females.  Much harder for females to mimic movements and visage of males when muscle growth and strength is required - lifts are an integral part of ballroom dance.  And Dancing with the Stars proves every week that being the leader/follower in the dance is not gender specific.

Blaire, pictured below, is male:

Image result for blaire white

Edited by anatess2

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Let's face it - BYU really doesn't have standards that can't be adjusted for money.  The ballroom dancing world is full of gay men.  Always has been.  Women who associate with gay men don't seem to mind it.  Thus, even at BYU those who are involved in this thing are going to push for a lot of gay men to be involved.  They don't want to lose the 'prestige' and associated money with this event.  Thus what most of us consider to be a standard that doesn't promote homosexuality can be bent to accomodate this.  All sorts of reasons and excuses can be found to justify the decision.

I won't be surprised when BYU athletics at some point decides that participating in competitions on Sunday can be justified in much the same way.  My point is that although the Church and BYU pretend to have principles regarding certain things they often break their own rules.  It's hypocritical and sadly stupid.

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As a landlord that caters to college students in Provo, Utah - and as a former student at BYU I am well acquainted with the standards of the university.   I am also well aware of particular individuals that well fulfill the prophesy of D&C 121 and implement protocols for departments at BYU that the oversee with the published standards that often do not make sense with their implementations.  I am also aware that there are some battles that are not necessary to be fought.

It is not uncommon for multi same sex individuals to be dancing together.  It is very common with indigenous dances - for example native American dances and Polynesian cultural center dancers at Brigham Young University Hawaii often dance with many of the same sex.   There is nothing that demands that two ball room dancers of the same sex to be attracted to the same sex for sexual purpose.  This is not a battle that I think anyone with a IQ above room temperature ought to be willing to die for.   But I do not agree with @TheRedHen - breaking the Sabbath is never a good idea if there is any possibility to avoid it.

 

The Traveler

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16 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

@MormonGator Just in case someone has not seen this xkcd comic.

duty_calls.png

I sometimes wonder how people like that act in real life. No one has the energy to be offended and outraged all the time. If they did,  they should try running a three minute mile. 

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36 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

@MormonGator Just in case someone has not seen this xkcd comic.

duty_calls.png

This cartoon has "saved" me SO MANY times!  I start to respond to something and then think of the cartoon and decide, "Nope, let them have their opinion, I don't need to tell them how much I disagree.  Just keep scrolling."  LOL!  Since my extended family and I disgaree about many things, this has likely saved relationships, LOL!

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Interesting decision, at one point BYU wouldn't allow a statue to be displayed because of the nudity and kiss between a heterosexual couple, but not so many years later will allow this?

The real question, is this the stance of the Church or the current head of the ballroom dance? Previously, the decision wasn't the Church but was the decision of the president of BYU.

This type of double standard will obviously cause some members to continue the rumor "soon it will be in our temples."

I would think BYU should hold to what others have shared, "Do what is right and let the consequence follow."

Edited by Anddenex

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47 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I would think BYU should hold to what others have shared, "Do what is right and let the consequence follow."

The problem comes when it's not obvious how to "do what is right".

It is beyond reasonable argument that promoting homosexual behavior is a Satanic betrayal of the children of God. It is also beyond reasonable argument that we are to show love and tolerance toward God's children, even those who sin (which would be all of them). So is allowing competitive dance between same-sex couples an example of the former or of the latter? Others have pointed out that dancing has not historically been an exclusively heterosexual activity, even in Western culture. In this case, "heterosexual" is meant purely in the literal meaning of "between members of the opposite sex" rather than the common meaning of "intimate sexual activity between members of the opposite sex." Ballroom dancing need not be viewed as essentially, inescapably sexual in nature.

But if the idea of intimate sexual activity between dance partners really is intrinsic to ballroom dancing, then that doesn't strike me as an appropriate public activity. The matter then becomes not so much whether BYU should allow homosexual couples to perform, but whether BYU should be participating in competitive ballroom dancing at all.

Throughout the entirety of human history, right up until very modern times, maybe the 20th century, battleground communications typically depended on using very loud and/or piercing instruments, designed to cut through the battle noise*, to convey melodies or rhythms that provided military instruction. Thus we have battle horns such as bugles, battle drums, and battle pipes of various sorts, like fifes or bagpipes (e.g. "Danny Boy"'s war summons: "O Danny boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling / From glen to glen and down the mountainside...") playing melodies or rhythms to indicate battle moves such as Advance, Charge, Retreat, Regroup, and so forth, even Retire (Taps) and Awake (Reveille).

*BTW, an older term for "battle noise" is "rumor of war"; those who speak Italian will recognize rumore as the Italian word for "noise". When the scriptures talk of "wars and rumors of wars", they don't mean breathlessly gossipy talk about possible warlike goings-on. Rather, they mean the noise of war, the sure sign that war is present, even if you're not personally in the thick of battle at the moment. That's what "rumors of war" means. Just in case you wanted to know.

Soldiers in battle were dependent upon the fife or drum or trumpet giving them information about how the battle was proceeding and what they were to do, since obviously a division Charging when they should be Retreating is a suicidal mistake. Thus Paul warns, "For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"

Are God's leaders giving "an uncertain sound"? If so, then we are in danger indeed. It is my considered opinion that God's leaders are not giving an uncertain sound. But we need to hearken to the Spirit to understand what the trumpets mean and how they signal to us what we should be doing.

In addition, as much as I love BYU and will happily say that it's the Lord's University—true by definition—the BYU administration does not necessarily reflect God's own will at every level and with every decision. Even with apostles making up half of the BYU Board of Directors and a Seventy acting as University President, suboptimal decisions still get made. What BYU does in this or that specific case doesn't necessarily reflect the best course of action. So I'm dismayed but not surprised when I become aware of some boneheaded decision made or policy implemented at BYU. Of course such things happen. it's the inevitable consequence of living in a fallen world with fallible, sinful men and women as our fellow Saints. But we have to be united; as Benjamin Franklin is claimed to have warned, "We must all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Edited by Vort

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Okay, I just talked to a ballroom dancer the other day, and this is a straight man who was outraged at the US Supreme Court decision regarding same-sex marriage.  He told me that people of the same-sex dancing together for practical (not romantic) reasons has been going on for a long time, and he danced with siblings all the time and rarely danced with someone he wanted to date (dancing with love interests is too distracting, but some people do it, there were gay guys, not at BYU, but they didn't request to dance with men because women always outnumber the men).  He pointed to a movie called Strictly Ballroom, which I haven't seen, but apparently the two main girls (they're straight) dance together in competitions.  He said it's not a big deal or new, except for the fact that it doesn't avoid the appearance of evil in today's world.  He said only people outside of ballroom would get worked up about this.  He felt personally that the girls were better dancers because it's more competitive for them to get accepted and they are running marathons backwards in high heels, which is quite a workout, but he's quite sure they'd be at a disadvantage in standard if they paired up--due to two ballroom gowns clashing into each other.  He affirmed that lifts are rare. 

I don't enjoy lowered standards.  I get disappointed easily like the rest of you, but I'm trying to overcome that...here are some of the sad things that have crept into our culture: church-owned Deseret News now publishes all week long.   BYU's not much better than a public school at times.  Every youth meeting growing up had some questionable and rude (not dirty) language BY THE TEACHERS, you know to fit it--and I hear it all the time when I pass the classes.  I was a youth teacher once but I was told by leaders that I wasn't cool enough to teach them and that's why I got released.  And I have been thinking of writing the Friend magazine and asking them to please improve the manners in their stories (a lot of them seem to have a problem of talking with their mouth full or forgetting to say please and thank you--I still support the Friend in case anyone takes this as criticism).  On the other hand I feel grateful that things have gotten better, activity rates are up, BYU used to have a serious cheating problem and have beauty competitions, and now grace is openly talked about at church.  I still have hope that Christ will polish us before or during the millennium due to His nature/prophecies, I don't believe we're completely at the mercy of peoples' personal continually lowering standards in the church, although where we are at convinces me the second coming is definitely going to take a while (interesting article on how heaven has very high standards and what our Heavenly Parents likely think of our church culture: Our Refined Heavenly Home, Ensign June 2009).  Likely there will be some movement towards better behavior in the future, just as I believe the Lord has influenced people to eat healthier, and treat the environment better, and learn about other faiths and genealogy, and be outraged at feticide.  It's as the scriptures allude to in Joel 2:28, the spirit of the Lord will influence not just His church but the outside culture as well.  One step back, but two steps forward, the sky is not falling in the church.     

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21 hours ago, Vort said:

 

But if the idea of intimate sexual activity between dance partners really is intrinsic to ballroom dancing, then that doesn't strike me as an appropriate public activity. The matter then becomes not so much whether BYU should allow homosexual couples to perform, but whether BYU should be participating in competitive ballroom dancing at all.

 

When we lived in a pretty conservative area of a western state, our young girls’ (9-11) best friends were heavy into ballroom dance. They start them early out there! As young as  2 or 3.   So my daughters “tried out” to be in the classes. Which meant countless hours of classes and sitting through competitions- even at the beginner level that my girls were at. It was fun. The girls enjoyed learning the basic dances and it was darn cute to watch them. But I took them out after a year for several reasons- cost, going down a rabbit hole with this dance club who’s owner was crazy intense, competitive and demanding. But for me the deal breaker was watching the 14 year old girls performing moves that were so slimey and sexually provocative, and nobody stopping them!! I couldn’t understand why the mother of my daughters’ friends, who is more conservative than I am, didn’t seem to be bothered by it. She claimed it was just the nature of ballroom dance. Many of the girls on the team ended up at BYU on their ballroom dance team. I never really followed them or the team after that. It was just not something that I felt comfortable with. 
 

For me it boils down to some dances (waltz, swing and some others) being tame and fun to do and watch. But I personally feel  some of the Latin dances are not appropriate for BYU. And yet they do them there and have forever. 🤷‍♀️

Edited by carlimac

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

How did they make it to the quarterfinals dressed like that?

 

Quote

USA DANCE: DANCESPORT RULEBOOK

3.12.8.2 American Smooth  Open Proficiency Levels plus Adult/Senior Syllabus Proficiency LevelsDress Specifications

 

Male Athlete Required:

  •   Minimum allowed attire of the age appropriate Smooth syllabus dress code.

  •   Competition apparel for Open Smooth.

  •   (CnS) tie/bow tie required.

  •   Vest, jacket or bolero jacket in (C1nS). (optional)

  •   (CnS) trousers.

  •   Socks.

  •   Shoes.

  •   Long hair must be worn in a ponytail.

Male Athlete Not Allowed

  •   No skin colored or flesh-toned suits, jackets, vests or shirts.

  •   Rolled up sleeves.

 

Female Athlete Required

  •   Minimum allowed attire of the age appropriate Smooth syllabus dress code.

  •   Competition dress for Open Smooth.

  •   Athlete’s skirt must cover dance pants and buttocks completely when athlete is

    standing still.

  •   Athlete’s dress must have a long skirt which at minimum covers both her knees.

Female Athlete Not Allowed

  •   Skin colored dresses.

  •   Dance pants must cover the buttocks completely; tangas/thongs are not allowed.

  •   Dance pants must be at least 2” from top to bottom at narrowest point in the hip

    area.

  •   Breast area must be covered with opaque fabric; if such fabric is skin colored, it

    must be heavily decorated (SwD).

  •   The distance between bra cups must be less than 2 inches (5 cm).

  •   Two-piece dresses may not consist of a bra/bikini top and skirt.

Table 16 American SmoothOpen Proficiency Levels plus Adult/Senior Syllabus Proficiency LevelsDress Specifications

 

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On 1/27/2020 at 12:07 PM, anatess2 said:

Don't underestimate the power of males to directly mimic the movements and visage of females.  Much harder for females to mimic movements and visage of males when muscle growth and strength is required - lifts are an integral part of ballroom dance.  And Dancing with the Stars proves every week that being the leader/follower in the dance is not gender specific.

Blaire, pictured below, is male:

Image result for blaire white

Kind of glad you said it was a male. I first saw the picture and was about to say "pretty" when i finished reading your text. This world has been insane lately.

Edited by Serviteur du seigneur

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18 hours ago, Serviteur du seigneur said:

Kind of glad you said it was a male. I first saw the picture and was about to say "pretty" when i finished reading your text. This world has been insane lately.

And why can't he be pretty?

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