How did we get here?

[anatess2]

This is for @Scott and maybe @Vort and @Just_A_Guy too.  

 

[Traveler]

On 2/3/2020 at 7:25 AM, anatess2 said:

It doesn't matter what your opinion of Trump's character is.  It's a TV caricature.  I gave you videos of people who know him personally.

It's crazy that you compare him to Al Capone with no evidence but your "impressions".  Al Capone was the head of a crime syndicate and had many people killed.

Trump Derangement Syndrome is real folks.

I would point something out.  According to church doctrine those that rebelled against G-d in the pre-existence were cast out and not allowed to become sons of Adam and daughters of Eve.  This means that those that receive mortal bodies have a righteous side.  This includes Al Capone.  What makes a person a "good" person is not what they do when they are expected to do good - it is defined by what they do when no one expects them to be good.  My intent was not to compare Trump to Al Capone - it was to demonstrate that even those that disrespect the law; can - at times - do kind and compassionate things.

I am skeptical of anyone that wants to be president - it is kind of related to my military experience and my concern with someone that wanted to be in combat.  Please note a difference between desire and willingness to sacrifice.  I could speak more to this but I believe you understand the point.  

I hope that Trump will continue to surprise me.   But I am concerned about the time we live - and I am very concerned with our political leaders.  More so about the socialists in our politics.  We have drifted so far into corruption and disrespect of the law - I believe that to right the ship will require bloodshed.   

 

The Traveler

 

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

We have drifted so far into corruption and disrespect of the law - I believe that to right the ship will require bloodshed.   

 

The Traveler

 

Sure, if people keep on voting Socialists you might have to go the route of Venezuela and take the Fed govt back - but you have something that Venezuela doesn't, State Governments.  And most of them are still right-side up.

But, where I disagree with you is your assertion that Trump is disrespectful of the law.  Look at the Strossel video I posted above so you can see how your media has painted Trump as something he is not.  Sure, he cheated on his wives, but no, he did not collude with Russia or any other thing he is accused of or impeached for.  His name was Seth Rich.

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

But, where I disagree with you is your assertion that Trump is disrespectful of the law. 

What law?  The law of Chasity?

Government by its existence is at some level socialists and all man made laws are nothing more than a forceful expression of morals and opinions.  We will not change the gravitational constant by legislation - we will, at best, only try to force our opinion of it on the rest of society.   

I may be 100% wrong about Trump - we will see when he is voted in for a second term and become a lame duck president - especially if he has a majority support in the House and Senate.  As much as I am convinced that the Democratic Party is infiltrated with secret combinations - sometimes things evil can be used to keep righteous societies to remember their covenant with G-d and seek his protection.  I am convinced that Trump will not save our liberties - rather we should look to and have faith in G-d.  But even that is becoming problematic.  Especially in a society that does not believe the law of Chasity is important or ought to be reflected in the laws of the society or leaders of that society.

 

The Traveler

Edited February 22, 2020 by Traveler

[estradling75]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I may be 100% wrong about Trump - we will see when he is voted in for a second term and become a lame duck president - especially if he has a majority support in the House and Senate. 

If he is as bad as you fear... why would he wait until he is a lame duck?  If all he cared about was himself he could have pushed that from day one.  He already had four years with the first election.  Why would he do a good enough job to get re-elected for another four years if all he wanted was four years as president to do whatever to begin with?  Your logic and reasoning make no sense.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

If he is as bad as you fear... why would he wait until he is a lame duck?  If all he cared about was himself he could have pushed that from day one.  He already had four years with the first election.  Why would he do a good enough job to get re-elected for another four years if all he wanted was four years as president to do whatever to begin with?  Your logic and reasoning make no sense.

He was fighting the establishment - or if you will the swamp.  With more of his people in place he has better control.  He wants to do a supper job.  It is not that his plans are all bad or that his vision is horrible.  Just that it is his vision and his plans.  I do not think he wants to be emperor or king but that he wants the credit and recognition.  So here is a question - if it is not about him but something else - who will take over to continue what he started (that something else) when his term is over?  Who is he grooming to take his place?

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

28 minutes ago, Traveler said:

He was fighting the establishment - or if you will the swamp.  With more of his people in place he has better control.  He wants to do a supper job.  It is not that his plans are all bad or that his vision is horrible.  Just that it is his vision and his plans.  I do not think he wants to be emperor or king but that he wants the credit and recognition.  So here is a question - if it is not about him but something else - who will take over to continue what he started (that something else) when his term is over?  Who is he grooming to take his place?

 

The Traveler

Nice move of the goal post there... First it was 'watch out for when he becomes a lame duck'... But the moment that idea gets any challenge you skip to a totally different idea ( in this case replacement).  I will take your wild dodge as an acknowledgment you are completely wrong... And I see no reason to try to discuss things that you clearly have no intention to discuss any further.

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Nice move of the goal post there... First it was 'watch out for when he becomes a lame duck'... But the moment that idea gets any challenge you skip to a totally different idea ( in this case replacement).  I will take your wild dodge as an acknowledgment you are completely wrong... And I see no reason to try to discuss things that you clearly have no intention to discuss any further.

This is a point that does not need discussion - What will unfold will settle the matter.  I have been wrong about many things in life - but none more than thinking that someone in politics that I thought could be trusted, when given lots of power will use it properly.   Every time I have assumed that politician will misuse power - I have been 100% correct.  So we shall see what will be.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

On 2/22/2020 at 4:15 PM, Traveler said:

What law?  The law of Chasity?

If this is where you're going with that then there's no difference between Trump and anybody else.

It's really difficult to talk to you about these things because when we say Law, you then invoke Covenants... which are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

In any case, if you want to continue to be disingenuous then there's really nothing for us to talk about on this matter because it just becomes frustrating.  So getting any meaningful discussions on your OP is virtually impossible.

Edited February 24, 2020 by anatess2

[estradling75]

20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If this is where you're going with that then there's no difference between Trump and anybody else.

It's really difficult to talk to you about these things because when we say Law, you then invoke Covenants... which are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

In any case, if you want to continue to be disingenuous then there's really nothing for us to talk about on this matter because it just becomes frustrating.  So getting any meaningful discussions on your OP is virtually impossible.

That has been Travelers MO since like forever.

[Traveler]

9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If this is where you're going with that then there's no difference between Trump and anybody else.

It's really difficult to talk to you about these things because when we say Law, you then invoke Covenants... which are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

In any case, if you want to continue to be disingenuous then there's really nothing for us to talk about on this matter because it just becomes frustrating.  So getting any meaningful discussions on your OP is virtually impossible.

There is a law of chastity - the covenant we make is to obey that law.  I honestly believe in this covenant; it is you that has confused the laws of G-d with the covenant we make to obey his law.  You asked for a specific law that Trump has broken and I provided a specific law.  This law if reflected in the traditional marriage which is the very foundation of family and and reasonable enduring society.  There is indeed a difference between Trump and many others.  I have been very consistent - that for the most part politicians cannot be trusted.  I have said many times that anyone that cannot be loyal and faithful to their spouse in a marriage - is not to be trusted.  I also believe this is the single greatest issue that our society faces today.   I do understand and believe in the principle of repentance but according to my knowledge Trump is not sorry for his moral indiscretions.  I could be wrong - and would be most interested in any information to the contrary -  What I am not interested in --- is the excuse that such laws are meaningless and should be ignored in determining who in our society ought to be trusted.

I stand by this concept.  And honestly I do not understand a Latter-day Saint that would argue otherwise.   This includes @Colirio and @estradling75 .  I do not like to categorize what is the worse sin - but I put failure to respect the law of Chasity - and claim to honor marriage before G-d as very high on my personal list with perhaps one other sin taking possibly taking first place.  I am sorry this upsets so many - but I see no reason to change this understanding.  Especially in light of the importance to understand and respect the sacred things of G-d.  But if others insist this will be the last time I defend this sacred notion with those listed in this thread.  Not as an act of anything other than sorrow.

 

The Traveler

[Colirio]

11 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I stand by this concept.  And honestly I do not understand a Latter-day Saint that would argue otherwise.   This includes @Colirio and @estradling75 .  

 

The Traveler

 

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, Traveler said:

There is a law of chastity - the covenant we make is to obey that law.  I honestly believe in this covenant; it is you that has confused the laws of G-d with the covenant we make to obey his law.  You asked for a specific law that Trump has broken and I provided a specific law.   

When you keep on fudging the difference between the United States Constitution and the State Constitutions in the Union with Covenants with God, especially when you say things like "Al Capone", "Hillary", "corruption", and "I am very concerned with what he will do if he thinks he is invincible.", then you create an impossible discussion.  Nobody, not even you, can qualify for President if your measuring stick is a perfect adherence to God's covenant. 

Sure.  Trump broke the Law of Chastity.  He does not promote breaking the law of Chastity.  He does not talk about cheating on your spouse like it is a good thing.  As a matter of fact, he has since wrote a book talking about his marriages and regretting many of the things that he did that led up to their dissolution.  How does that, in any shape or form, make him a corrupt President and a "concern for what he will do if he doesn't get removed from office after he gets impeached (invincible)"?

So, as you can see here, you are not discussing anything.  You are busy grasping at straws just so you can stay in your comfortable Trump Derangement illogic handing mental disorder judgments from your quarterback armchair.  Emperor Palpatine will be proud... "good... let the hate flow through you..."

 

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Colirio said:

 

True... but again totally Travelers MO.  Ignore the fact that I didn't vote for Trump, ignore the fact that I no longer think of myself as a Republican because they went with Trump in spite of his character issues. Ignore the fact that I am one of the people who repeatedly brought up the Lord's standard when we were discussing who to vote for.  Ignore the fact that I have never given Trump's sin' a pass.

The only thing I have done is point out the failure in Travelers logic when it comes to what he is predicting about Trump's behavior.  In stead of defending or clarifying his statement, Traveler evades and then attempts to attack my character.  It is such a fundamentally dishonest tactic that tells us more about Travelers flaws of character then it does anyone else's.

 

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I didn't vote for Trump,

We need to do something about that.  😅

 

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We need to do something about that.  😅

 

Trump is doing something about that.  When I read the Lord's command about seeking after people of good character... Part of the good character equation for me is "What do they do with the powers of the office they have held" in addition to all the other things about character.  That was a Zero as far as I could tell for the first election.  But he is now elected and he is now using the powers of the office and that number is positive and climbing in my judgment.  So when the election comes again I will look over the candidates and I will seek for the one of the best characters that I can find.  Unless something changes radically I expect Trump to be in a better position with me the next election then he was the last election.

So when I try my best to fulfill the command God concerning election I might find Trump to be the answer.  I don't necessarily care for that idea... but God understands that our best effort might not really be all that good. So he'll accept it anyways.

 

 

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Trump is doing something about that.  When I read the Lord's command about seeking after people of good character... Part of the good character equation for me is "What do they do with the powers of the office they have held" in addition to all the other things about character.  That was a Zero as far as I could tell for the first election.  But he is now elected and he is now using the powers of the office and that number is positive and climbing in my judgment.  So when the election comes again I will look over the candidates and I will seek for the one of the best characters that I can find.  Unless something changes radically I expect Trump to be in a better position with me the next election then he was the last election.

So when I try my best to fulfill the command God concerning election I might find Trump to be the answer.  I don't necessarily care for that idea... but God understands that our best effort might not really be all that good. So he'll accept it anyways.

 

 

I can't take more than a a minute or two of Hannity but I was able to sit through this whole thing:

 

[Guest Scott]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have said many times that anyone that cannot be loyal and faithful to their spouse in a marriage - is not to be trusted. 

I agree with this.  If someone lies to their spouse, there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't lie to everyone else.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

He does not talk about cheating on your spouse like it is a good thing. 

Yes he has.; a lot of times.   It was many incidences; not just a few.   There are playboy interviews, radio shows, recordings, etc.   You can easily find them.  I am not going to post links to vulgar material on this website.

Maybe he hasn't done that kind of stuff since getting elected, but he certainly did before getting elected and in the past. 

[anatess2]

34 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes he has.; a lot of times.   It was many incidences; not just a few.   There are playboy interviews, radio shows, recordings, etc.   You can easily find them.  I am not going to post links to vulgar material on this website.

Maybe he hasn't done that kind of stuff since getting elected, but he certainly did before getting elected and in the past. 

I don't know what sites you go to but it must be something I don't go to.  If this is anything like the Billy Bush tape, then there's context there that is missing from all the "tabloid" reporting.  His book The Art of the Comeback was published in 1997.  It had sections about his failed marriage to Ivana and what drove him to Marla.  He doesn't talk about that time proudly but simply as part of his down moments that he had to come back from.  The Billy Bush tape was a statement of fact from a celebrity who has girls throwing themselves at him.  He was neither praising it nor saying it's a good thing, not from the audio capture nor from his statements about it afterwards.

Did he cheat on his wives?  Sure.  Did he say that cheating on his wives was great, we should all do it... highly unlikely.

[anatess2]

53 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes he has.; a lot of times.  

Here's a perfect example of mischaracterization:  https://qz.com/1762490/my-interracial-marriage-became-a-protest-in-the-trump-era/

Do you really believe that Trump is racist/bigot because he called illegal immigrants "invaders" and told "The Squad" to go back to where they came from?  That's the ordinary public's reaction to Trump shaped by the 97% negative press of the past 4 years.

Edited February 25, 2020 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I don't know what sites you go to but it must be something I don't go to. 

Do you really want me to send them via PM?   Say the word and I will, though I'm pretty sure that you can find them for yourself.  

Also, you do know that Trump was in a porno film, did several interviews with radio shows, has been on the cover of Playboy Magazine and the like after he was married?  You really don't think that there were braggings in there about having sex with other women?  

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, Scott said:

Do you really want me to send them via PM?   Say the word and I will, though I'm pretty sure that you can find them for yourself.  

Also, you do know that Trump was in a porno film, did several interviews with radio shows, has been on the cover of Playboy Magazine and the like after he was married?  You really don't think that there were braggings in there about having sex with other women?  

Not sure what your point is, Scott. Trump lives after the manner of the world? I doubt anyone here argues against that point. Maybe my attention span is too short, but I don't see exactly what you're driving at.

For many of us, Trump looks kind of like the Jaredite Morianton, who did justice to his people but not himself. If you're trying to convince us that Trump often behaves in a telestial manner, I think you're preaching to the choir. If you're trying to convince us that it's bad to vote for Trump as US President, you'll have to convince us that any—ANY—of his opponents is better qualified, politically or morally.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Vort

[Guest Scott]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Not sure what your point is, Scott. Trump lives after the manner of the world? I doubt anyone here argues against that point. Maybe my attention span is too short, but I don't see exactly what you're driving at.

My comment was in response to the comment He does not talk about cheating on your spouse like it is a good thing.  This is not true. 

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, Scott said:

Do you really want me to send them via PM?   Say the word and I will, though I'm pretty sure that you can find them for yourself.  

Also, you do know that Trump was in a porno film, did several interviews with radio shows, has been on the cover of Playboy Magazine and the like after he was married?  You really don't think that there were braggings in there about having sex with other women?  

Haha.  No.  I'm not interested in any of that.