Redemption of Zion and the Fall of Adam

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On 2/7/2020 at 12:46 PM, estradling75 said:

On the subject of the redemption of Zion being delayed.  I doubt it is a matter of false ideas.  A member who can't be bothered to do their ministering (and formerly Home and Visiting Teaching) is simply not Zion material until and unless they repent.  Once we collectively as members start obeying the commandments given then Zion will form.  Until then all we as individuals can do is work on ourselves so that we will be ready for it.

This is what I was referring to.  Though I am not LDS, I understood by this that sons who are not listening to Him and are not doing what is needed, delay going Home. This is 100% true.

[LoveIsTruth]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:38 PM, Anddenex said:

> The point of the verse is simply stating Eve had already partaken of the fruit, as such would be cast out (otherwise God would be a liar), and in order to keep the first commandment with Eve Adam had to make a decision. Thus, we have verse 25, "Adam fell that man might be, and men are that they might have joy." So, at this point, after Eve's decision there was no other way for him to keep the first commandment with Eve.

After Eve fell, Adam could not keep the first commandment "with Eve", because God commanded Adam to have children in a terrestrial/paradisaical state, which was Plan A. Not in a fallen world.

Therefore Adam should have refused the temptation of the devil delivered by Eve, in which case Adam would have been given another wife who would listen to God more than the devil in this thing.

Even in regular life, if one spouse breaks the covenant and leaves the church, the other one is not obligated to follow the fallen one.

We are commanded to be faithful to God first and foremost. Adam made a wrong choice in the garden.

We are also taught, if one spouse is unworthy of blessings of a higher kingdom, and the other is, the faithful will be given a new spouse who is worthy.

That is what would have happened to Adam if he resisted the temptation and chose God over his wife and the devil. 

But Adam chose wrong. An example of what definitely NOT to do.
Those who choose spouse over God, will bring a curse upon themselves and their posterity, and are unworthy of the presence of the Lord.

This is why Adam was cast out, and suffered a spiritual death.

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> Was there an alternative way. Sure. When Adam and Eve were tempted, and Eve recognized the fruit would allow her to become wise they both could have waited for the Father and Son for more knowledge and instruction when he returned to the garden of Eden. Again, this is speculation (theory).

> Eve was wise. She was the first to recognize (at least according to what is in scripture at the moment) that partaking of the fruit of good and evil would make her wise (or as God particularly said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil;.")

Partaking of the forbidden fruit made her foolish, not wise. Wisdom is defined as: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments." (Ps. 111:10)

She would have been wise if she resisted the temptation. This is the difference between opening of eyes by resisting temptations vs. yielding to them.  One is wise, the other is stupid. 

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It is also the OP's opinion (not an overt truth) that they weren't wise and heroic, although I can't find anything online specifying Adam as heroic and Eve as wise from words of the prophets and apostles.

Here is one:

We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/10/constancy-amid-change?lang=eng

This is why Zion is not redeemed almost 200 years later.

 

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The more I read the prophets and apostles it sounds more like they are grateful and praise Adam and Eve's willingness to be our first parents.

O, it is well beyond that. They glorify the transgression as an act of wisdom and courage, unwittingly insulting God in the process. 

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I tend to accept this interpretation, not the OP's pertaining to Adam and Eve, "If we correctly understand the role of Adam and Eve, we will realize that those who have labeled them sinners responsible for the universal depravity of the human family are misguided." (emphasis mine)

They opened the door to a fallen, lone and dreary world, and to death itself. In a very real way, through her transgression, Eve became the death of all living. This is not an opinion, this is what God said:

2 Nephi 2:21 
... he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

 Moses 6:59 
59 ... by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death ...

It is a good thing they repented, or the blood of the whole earth would have been required at their hands. The higher the position, the greater the responsibility.

 

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2) Can't find this quote anywhere, "We were so foolish and disobedient, that were it not for our transgression, (which forced us to learn obedience through a punishment of a curse), we should never have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. For there verily was a better way for us in the Garden, were we willing to listen to the Father more than to the devil,” that is proclaimed to be the words of God.

This is what Eve's words should mean, in the context of what God said in the scriptures.

 

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3) "One is a lie, and there other is not, because they indeed COULD have had, had they listened to the Father."

> We don't know if they could or would have had children if they remained.

Yes we do know. God gives no commandments unless you CAN do it. This is not my opinion, it is the word of God:

1 Nephi 3:7 
7 ... the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

And as transgressing commandments is NOT accomplishing them, therefore it inescapably means that Adam and Eve COULD both have children AND not partake of the forbidden fruit, because God commanded them so. These are not opinions, these are facts.

 

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To act as if Eve is lying is pretty poor. Eve is speaking from the knowledge she now has at that moment, which she didn't have prior to that. Much like us in our day when we come across something, even if through making a wrong choice, we now say, "If I had not known this, I would not have done this or could not do this." It doesn't mean there was no other way, just simply due to knowledge we now have we speak according to that knowledge.

I agree that it doesn't mean there was no other way. Glad to hear you admit that! Thank you. And I never accused Eve of lying in this verse. I just said that in context of other scriptures it meant something other than what we are taught these days.

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> In this light actually, I also have a similar theory that Adam and Eve could have brought mortality into existence another way.

Glad to hear that! We agree then.

 

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If Adam and Eve though did not "Fall" or receive some type of transition from immortality to mortality then our Savior would have never been able to offer himself up as a Sacrifice. There would have been no gethsemane and no cross. Some sort of Fall needed to occur, as that is one pillar of truth.

I already answered this in detail in this section of the OP: "But the scriptures say if there were no fall there would be no Savior..."

 

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> This is entering now into a Protestant teaching rather than a restored gospel teachings, "Adam and Eve were foolish and unwise, we all could have remained in the state of immortality."

Protestants and most of Christian world are more correct on this one point than us. Peculiar, how that happened, but true.

I guess God has a sense of humor, and did not want LDS to be arrogant in the hereafter. So He allowed them one big blunder in the doctrine for 200 years! But this will be corrected before this decade is out. Those who survive will be told from the pulpit that God indeed had a better way for Adam and Eve, had they listened to Him more than to the devil in the garden. That's what Adam-ondi-Ahman will be in part about. You will see.

 

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> I am not sure our state/bodies will be the same type of body Adam and Eve had in the garden. Adam and Eve could not die. We do not know if this means there could have been some form of "translation" in the the twinkling of an eye (a form of death) from mortality to immortality as it will be during the millennium.

It would have been the same as in the Millennium, after their eyes were open without transgression. That's what happened on countless other worlds.

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> As with Eve's statement, I am more inclined to believe Adam than the OP, "Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God." Adam refers to his transgression as a blessing, and blesses God for the opportunity to have joy and see God once again in the flesh.

No, he refers to the mercy of God as a blessing, not the transgression. Only the devil and his followers glory in their transgressions. Adam would  have been damned if he gloried in his transgression. Taken in context Adam's words mean:

Blessed be the name of God, for [despite] of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy [because of God's mercy], and again in the flesh I shall see God [who redeemed me through His Son].

Righteous people do not glory in their transgressions, but in God's mercy and grace who redeemed them from their transgressions. 

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5) Zion CANNOT be redeemed and restored to a Terrestrial state while believing the very lie that caused the fall in the first place!

> Clear speculation. The Church isn't bound by the OPs interpretation of the Fall, nor God. Zion will be redeemed as we live the principles of a Zion society. There will be truths unknown, or people aren't believing correctly, when Zion is established once again.

When Zion is redeemed neither church in general, nor her leaders, will any longer believe that Adam had no better way but to transgress, because it is a doctrine of the devil, which doctrine caused the fall of Zion in the first place, and God will not suffer that this error should continue in His Church.

No one is "bound" by anything unless it is true. And God will show you before the decade is out that what I told you is true. 

 

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6) This is how Jesus got His eyes opened to know good and evil, by resisting temptations, instead of yielding to them.

> Item missed by the OP. Jesus was already part of a "Fallen" world which allowed for good and evil -- in all accounts -- for him to resist.

Adam and Eve also had good and evil presented to them BEFORE the fall. You do not have to be in a "fallen" world to have good and evil. If it were not so, all those in the Millennium would have been damned because they do not live in a fallen world. But they are blessed. I covered this in the OP under section: "But how then will they get the opposition and the experience necessary to be exalted?" 

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> True though, our eyes can be opened by resisting temptation. That is why the scriptures use the word "entice."

Glad to hear that. Then you must admit that Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened without transgression, precisely as the Father commanded them, which means that there was a better way, just as I said.

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7) Adam and Eve made the WRONG choice in the garden, or God is a liar and a self-contradictory God, which is no God at all!

> Adam and Eve made a choice God already saw they would make -- thus a Savior was provided. The "Fall" was necessary. That is clear in scripture. How the "Fall" occurred could be easily argued, but a "Fall" was necessary.

Already covered this in the OP under section: "But the fall was necessary, some will say!"

 

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> God is God. There could have been a better way, but that isn't the point of scripture. If there were a better way (which we could say there is), the better way did not happen, and do dwell on it places a person in missing the mark. Thus we have scripture, "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ, shall all be made alive."

The church in essence asserts "there was no better way" which makes God a liar, and no God at all.

I think this would be an important doctrinal point to fix, don't you think? Those who say that "Adam did what needed to be done" are missing the mark, because unwittingly they are repeating the doctrine of the devil.

 

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8. It is ALWAYS wrong to transgress the commandments of God. There are no exceptions to this rule.

> Well, that is correct, this is why they were cast out of the garden, because transgressing the law broke the law and they were cast out. God doesn't excuse them, but provided a Savior (which required a sacrifice > death).

If "Adam did what needed to be done" then he did right, not wrong.

We are taught the exact opposite of the truth on this point. It is shameful!  

Granted,  people do it mostly unwittingly, but it is not good enough. It is a gross error (that will be corrected soon enough).

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9) Secondly, if Adam resisted the temptation sufficiently, his eyes would have been open without transgression, and he would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as the Father commanded him.

> This is speculation. Could they have, sure, but we don't know except for what scriptures specifies.

I already mentioned this: It is like saying the scriptures state that 1+1=2, but we do not know if 2+2=4.

It is our duty to apply correct principles and discover more truth. I am not speculating. I am calculating. This is an inescapable conclusion, because it is the only one that agrees with the words of God in the scriptures.

The one we are taught in the church on the subject is in blatant contradiction to the revealed words of God, (and frankly, is an insult to reason).

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We are welcome to speculate and make it clear our speculation, but your words are stating you aren't speculating and go against scripture and words given by the Lord's servants his prophets.

Care to show where it goes against scripture? As for  the "words given by the Lord's servants his prophets," it is a classic error of conflating prophets opinions with words of God.

Joseph Smith warned against that. Do you believe him?

I know it is hard for most members to imagine, but it is nevertheless true. Every true prophet of God that ever lived, except Jesus only, made mistakes and had incorrect opinions on one subject or another. But there is no error in the revelations  they have taught. 

And how do you know the difference where revelation ends and opinions begin? Use reason and the Spirit.

What we are taught in the church about the fall is an insult to reason, because it makes God to be a self-contradictory psychopath!

Just think about it, in essence what we are taught is that God supposedly said to Adam and Eve: "Here is this great and wonderful garden I have planted for you. Be fruitful and multiply, be happy and have joy therein.... But, by the way, you cannot multiply until you are kicked out of here into a lone and dreary world, and suffer spiritual death; and you cannot have joy unless you disobey me and fall."

This is deranged!

They make God a self-contradictory non-God, to fit their own lack of understanding, and to venerate incorrect opinions of the prophets!

We have to learn to think for ourselves. I think this is one reason why God allowed this error to continue in the church for so long. 

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> When a person denies the importance of the/a "Fall" -- a pillar of truth -- they are already on the wrong track. I choose to accept the following that has been repeated over and over, "The plan required the Creation, and that in turn required both the Fall and the Atonement. These are the three fundamental components of the plan. The creation of a paradisiacal planet came from God. Mortality and death came into the world through the Fall of Adam. Immortality and the possibility of eternal life were provided by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement were planned long before the actual work of the Creation began" (in Conference Report, Apr. 2000, 105; or Ensign, May 2000, 84).

Already answered it in these two sections of the OP: "But the fall was necessary, some will say!" and  "But was it not a part of God’s plan that Adam should fall?"

 

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10) This means that this earth was the first one that fell. Millions of other worlds created by God before did not fall! This is why the Savior was born here, because this was the most wicked world of all.

> Speculation. We don't know if this was the first or one of many. We don't know the "real" reason why the Savior was born here and not some other earth created by God. We don't know if this was the most wicked world of "all," but surely has had some wicked people born here.

Interesting, "if we do not know" then why are we taught that the fall is a standard part of every world? You cannot have it both ways. Either the fall is "standard" because it is "necessary" or it is not necessary. 

Which is it?

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11) Last one I will mention, " By the way, if Enoch or Melchizedek were in the garden of Eden instead of Adam, they would not have fallen. Does it mean they are greater than Adam? No. It means they were less volatile, or more steadfast in that point.

> Another point of speculation. You and I have no clue how Enoch or Melchizedek would have responded if they were in the garden of Eden with their wife. You don't know how Enoch and Melchizedek were and how many mistakes they made before bringing them to the knowledge and understanding they had. You don't know if they were less volatile than Adam or more steadfast.

I think I do.

Think about it: Enoch, Melchizedek, and many others were given a fallen world, and overcame it by obtaining a non-fallen one.

Adam, on the other hand, was given a paradise, and sent it to hell, the exact opposite of what these men have done.

This is why Adam was not translated, but returned to the dust from which he was taken, and these men did not. 

 

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Adam was chosen as the first male, and yet indirectly you mock God for choosing Adam. If the fall was not required, as you have shared, and Enoch and Melchizedek could have not fallen, why did an omniscient God then choose someone he knew would "Fall" --- transgress? If the fall was not required, wouldn't it have been a more perfect and wise decision to choose Enoch/Melchizedek according to his foreknowledge? Isn't God perfect?

God is perfect. But Adam had to learn something about Adam. This is why he was placed here and was allowed to fall.

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I think its wonderful to theorize and to try to more completely understand the gospel and its truths. Its not good to provide speculation on things you don't know and teach them as truth -- which some are in direct discord against revealed words.

I teach what I know to be true. Revealed words agree with what I teach. The opinions of the prophets about the fall, do not. 

 

Cheers. Thanks for posting. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by LoveIsTruth

[LoveIsTruth]

12 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Joseph Smith also said that the spirit of criticism is one of the first steps to apostasy.  God called those men flaws and all.  To criticize them when they are acting in the bounds of there God ordained stewardship also is a criticism of God for calling such flawed people to do his work.  That is the slope you are on that Vort sees. There is a better way..  It is a harder way... Criticism is the path of the lazy.

I do not criticize men. I criticize incorrect opinions, because they contradict the words of God.

God criticizes incorrect opinions plenty in the scriptures. I just follow his example. And it is not lazy.

It is a labor of love.

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The better way is straight forward. Joseph Smith taught to understand the scripture (the words of the Prophets) one needs to understand the question being asked.  Or to put it another way to understand the Prophets we need to understand the context of their actions and words.  Prophets are called to correct the path of the faithful of the church when they start to go astray.  This error can be sin, it can be false doctrine it can be anything really that deflect us from the strait and narrow path.  The prophets then are going to push really hard to counter the error.  That is what God called them to do.  However if we take that hard push out of context it can lead to confusion and error.Take for example the writing of Paul.  Lots of people use his writing to justify doing nothing at all.  "We are saved by Grace not Works"  Anti Christians point to this as one of the many contradiction they see and use to deny the word of God.  Yet when we understand that Paul was addressing the error of the early saints to continue the Law of Moses and the works related to it.  Then we understand the context of Paul's word we see him working diligently and faithfully to do the work of God. 

I agree with that. Context is everything. Any statement without context is meaningless. In fact, context gives meaning to any statement.

But we have plenty of context from our prophets, to know that "Adam did what needed to be done" is in contradiction to the words of God.

It is very plain to me. 

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It is not Paul's teaching or the teaching of the other prophets that are wrong.  The error is in our understanding of their words that is the fault... not the words they used.

We see this all the time when the church announces a change... various people jump to the idea that what was done before was some how wrong.. or that the church is some how wrong now.  Rather then that the Church drifted a different way and now needs to be pushed back on the strait and narrow.

I agree with that.

 

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As for Adam and Eve what is the context of the modern leaders comments?  What was the context of Lehi's statement about Adam and Eve?  That is something we need to ponder as we study the scriptures.  Ponder until we harmonize the statements with the rest of the gospel. Your quest for truth will fail if you alienate yourself from those God called to speak the truth to us, because you pull their words out of context and apply them in ways the prophets never meant or intended.

Please give me a context for  

"We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/10/constancy-amid-change?lang=eng

And how is this not a repetition of Satan's lie: "there is no other way"?

I support the prophets and apostles because they are called of God. But I do not support Satan's lies, and I do not support or repeat errors, because it is a disservice to God and to His cause. 

[LoveIsTruth]

12 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Sorry. It looks to me like you're offering your opinion as fact. New Jerusalem will not be built,

Ether 13:6 
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land

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it will come down out of heaven.

After the earth is destroyed and resurrected. 

Rev. 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

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It's not going to be a slow spreading, it will be witnessed by the whole earth and the wicked will be destroyed. At least, that's the way I understand the scriptures.

You are confusing building of New Jerusalem and the Second Coming. There is more than 2.5 centuries between the two events.

 

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I agree, the church is stubborn but it has nothing to do with the incorrect opinions of its prophets. The reason is as it has always been, it is because the people will not listen to the prophets.

Well said, but it is both. The incorrect opinions of the prophets is a sign that Zion is not yet ready to be redeemed.

But it soon will be, all those who are left alive, because God will soften or remove all the heads that impede his work. 

 

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You know, the opposite of good is not always evil. The opposite of Good is Bad. The opposite of right is wrong. All bad is not evil. When I hit my thumb with a hammer, that is not good. It is also not evil. Do you see that?

Yes, it depends on the context. However, when I gave the formula: 

That which is according to the commandments of God is good, and

That which is contrary to the commandments of God is evil.

The context is perfectly clear: it is right and wrong, and in this context this formula is perfectly correct.

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God gave Adam and Eve a choice, not unlike the power he has given us to choose. Sometimes we make mistakes. That doesn't make us evil. Fighting against God does and that's what Lucifer did. He not only disagreed, he also rebelled. He rejected God and his plan and attempted to replace God. Adam and Eve did not.

I agree with that. 

 

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He's not saying, you didn't curse anyone else why are you cursing me.

He did say: "If thou cursest me for doing the same thing that was done in other worlds..."

What is the point of saying "the same thing" if the outcome  was always the same, a curse?

It wasn't.

All other worlds rejected the temptation in the garden. There was no fall, and no curse before. This earth was the first one that fell. Which also proves that God had a much better way for Adam and Eve had they listened to Him more than to the devil in the garden.

 

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We can learn one thing from this exchange. It happened before on other worlds.

The temptation happened on other worlds. The fall did not.

Otherwise Lucifer should have fully expected to be cursed again, if he was millions of times before.

 

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There might have been another way, but it would still require that Adam and Eve become mortal, have children, live and die and require a Savior to bring us back into the presence of God.

Mortality was always the plan. Opposition was always part of the plan. The only thing that changed was who launched the plan. Either way, it works out, for us, to be exactly the same.

1. False. Mortality is still necessary.

Then please explain to me how billions of children who will be born in the Millennium, and will live out their lives without ever knowing a fallen, lone and dreary world, who will live in the world where "there shall be no sorrow because there is no death" (D&C 101:29), how will they be exalted? Do you doubt they will be?

This is exactly what God offered Adam and Eve had they listened to him.
As for the Savior, I answered it in this section of the OP: "But the scriptures say if there were no fall there would be no Savior..."

 

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"2) That better way was to listen to the Father and to resist the temptation."
Perhaps, but the results would have to be just as they are right now.

So whether you listen to God or the devil, the result is the same?

 

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Just as the same spirit will rise with us in the resurrection, filthy will be filthy still, the same is true of birth. The same spirit that existed before birth rose at birth. Our character is not determined by our bodies nor is it determined by ancient parents who ate the fruit. Our character has always been what it is now.

Yes. But it doesn't mean God did not have a better plan for Adam and Eve. Nor does it mean "there was no other way for them but to transgress." These are doctrines of the devil, not God. 

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 "3) Which if they had done, their eyes would have been opened without transgression, and they would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as the Father commanded them."

They may have had posterity, but Abel would still be killed at the hands of Cain.

Did you forget the words of God:  "there shall be no sorrow because there is no death" (D&C 101:29)?

 

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" 4) Which would have produced conditions on the earth similar to those which will prevail, but now only in the Millennium."

Your idea of the Millennium is a little skewed. The earth will be restored to its paradisiacal glory, but we will still die and there will be birth. Those things didn't happen in the garden. We will still have choice. It will be the people of that society that will ultimately fall and need to be cleansed by fire. As long as there is choice, there is the possibility of wrong choices.

All true. My vision is not skewed, but matches yours on this point. That is what Adam could have had right off the bat, without a lone and dreary world phase. 

As for "death" it is not worthy to be called "death," because they are changed in a twinkling of an eye. Therefore God says of the Millennium for the righteous: "there is no death." (D&C 101:29)

 

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5. Nope. Christ atones for the mistakes of the individual, not for the mistakes of the parents.

 Moses 6:54 
54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

He did both: atoned for the mistakes of the individual, and for the mistakes of the parents.

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" 6) Zion cannot be redeemed, ie restored to a Terrestrial glory, while believing the very lies that caused the fall from that glory in the first place."

Your opinion is noted. What we believe has very little to do with the glory the earth will experience. It's what we do that makes the difference. We can have an incorrect understanding of things, as we most certainly have of most things of God, and still be elevated. In another thread, I mentioned that one can have an incorrect understanding of the nature of God, physical or spiritual, and still can meet him in the Celestial Kingdom. They don't even know to know him. To fix these issues, all that needs to happen is to meet him. Then, the mystery will be solved. The same is true of the garden epic. Regardless of whether it was good or bad, the results with which we have to live today will not change. If we're wrong about that history, it won't take much to correct it.

I hope so. Nevertheless, what I said is true. Correction has already started. This OP is a part of the process

 

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 "7) Adam/Michael himself will tell the stubborn church (those who are left alive), that he did wrong in the garden of Eden, and that there indeed was a better way for him and his posterity, had he listened to the Father more than the devil."

We already have what Adam will say. It's in our scriptures. It now appears that you are cherry-picking which scriptures you will accept.

Before  this decade is out, you will see it, if you live through it. Then you will know that I told you so.

 

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...

8. This a valid point, to a point.

"9) The church is true, and God will not suffer Satan’s lies regarding the fall to continue in His church much longer."

9. Well, thank goodness we have you. Who needs a prophet, right?

You are welcome. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by LoveIsTruth

[LoveIsTruth]

10 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

 The OP isn't LDS either. It's clearly anti-LDS.

A curious quote from an "anti-LDS" OP:

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 I love the Church. I know it is the only true and living church of God in this world.

Despite of all the errors and shortcomings of its members and leaders, it is the only church in possession of the keys of the priesthood of God in this world.

And God will hold men responsible to the respect and deference they show to the keys He has entrusted in this church.

 

wouldn't you think?

 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by LoveIsTruth

[LoveIsTruth]

9 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

None of us have lived plan A. And, as I said before, it doesn't matter if there was another plan. We would all still be the people that we are. Cain would have still killed Abel. Eating the fruit did not cause that sin. It created an environment where the sin could be committed, but the sin did not come from eating fruit.

Sins can be committed even in heaven. That's what Lucifer was thrust out for.

You do not have to fall to be in the environment where you can commit sin.

Agency and opposition exists in every kingdom.  The only difference is how people deal with it.

[LoveIsTruth]

9 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

the person who posted the OP is masquerading as a believing Mormon and he or she clearly isn't. Specifically, because of their claim that the Prophets lied to us (which implies that they knew or believed something other than what they taught which the OP cannot possibly know or certainly hasn't provided any evidence). 

Please show me where I said "the Prophets lied to us."

I said they unwittingly repeat the lies of Satan in the garden.

Do you see the difference? 

Moreover I said in the OP:

"I know that the prophets and apostles called to lead this church are good men who are doing their best at the time. And if they error, these are honest mistakes, and God will be merciful to all those who seek to do His will with all their hearts."

Do you understand the difference between an honest mistake and a lie?

 

[LoveIsTruth]

10 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

But that's not what the scriptures say. They say there would be no need for a Savior. And, by extension, there would be no exaltation either.

Already answered this in this section of the OP: "But the scriptures say if there were no fall there would be no Savior"

Quote

Adam and Eve, no matter how well they lived in the garden, it could not have been counted for good or evil there would have been no opportunity for redemption because there was no fall.

It is like saying: "There would have been no opportunity for crutches, because the legs were not broken. So, let's break everybody's legs, so they can use the crutches."

Quote

Thus, they would have eternally been locked in the garden which is an end in itself. I'm not sure if you can grasp the concept that an eternity of tending a garden is NOT heaven. That was never God's intention. It's clearly not the condition we find ourselves in today. While this life is admittedly not much better than hell, one can easily see that what Christ offers us is far better than an eternity in the garden. The garden was a stagnant environment where we could neither fall nor advance, but it was a place they could die. Now, at the very least, because of Christ, we no longer are subject to death. We may die as to this mortal body, but we will be resurrected to an immortal glory that can never be taken away from us ever again. Adam and Eve did not have that. We now have the opportunity to dwell where God dwells. Adam and Eve did not have that.

Whether or not what Adam and Eve did could be considered evil, doesn't really make any difference. The result of their actions has made it possible for a far more glorious reward than being eternally stuck in a garden. 

You are laboring under a delusion, taught by Satan, that if Adam did not partake of the forbidden fruit, his eyes would never have been opened.

That is a lie.

If Adam and Eve resisted the temptation sufficiently, their eyes would have been opened without a transgression, and they would have had posterity without a fall, precisely as the Father commanded them, in which case, the conditions on the earth would have been like those in the Millennium. 

So, far from being stuck in the garden, they would have been building intergalactic spaceships.

And yes, they would have still been exalted in the kingdom of God, just like the righteous who will live in the Millennium.

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by LoveIsTruth

[LoveIsTruth]

11 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

 Uh. No. We don't need to prove anything. You've provided your evidence and all we need to do is agree or disagree. There is no such thing as proof when it comes to the gospel, my friend.  

Then how do you explain these scriptures:

Acts 9:22 
22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Also this:

 2 Nephi 11:4 
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him. ...
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.

and this:

 D&C 20:8 
8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them—
11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;
12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.

Still think that  "There is no such thing as proof when it comes to the gospel?" Then what is exactly the point of being  here on this forum, if you can never prove anything?

Your very presence here suggests that you believe otherwise. 

 

Quote

God doesn't give impossible commands, that is true. And it would work if everyone did what they were supposed to do. Eve didn't. She ate the fruit. Now, doing both would be impossible. Eve is clearly the transgressor here. Adam had very little choice. At least there weren't very options that he knew about based on what we are told. Once Eve ate the fruit it was over. Either we would never come into existence or Adam would have to go with her. The burden of our existence fell on Adam's shoulders right after Eve ate the fruit.

That is clearly false. When one spouse brakes the covenant, God gives the faithful another spouse.

"You will be left alone man in the garden of Eden" was a lie authored by the devil and transmitted through Eve.

Adam would have gotten a new wife from the Lord, had he remained faithful, as the Father commanded him.

Quote

We can all agree that Eve broke the commandment to not eat the fruit of that tree. There can be no doubt about that, but is what she did evil? It was wrong, we call all agree on that, but I don't think we can so easily say that it was evil. When she ate the fruit, she was incapable of evil. She had not yet fallen and had no knowledge of good and evil. We are not told the reason she chose to eat the fruit, but it seems obvious. When Lucifer told her this was how God did it, it isn't too much of a stretch to see that she could easily compare her current condition and that she could not be where God is without eating that fruit. Is wanting to be where God is evil? If it was, then is wanting to be saved now, to live where God and Christ are, evil? I don't think so. It isn't evil now and it wasn't evil then even if it was wrong.

I agree it was wrong. They were incapable of committing sins until after their eyes were opened. So partaking was not a sin, but a serious and deadly transgression, that brought a curse and death upon the whole human family of Adam on earth. 

It was a deadly mistake. (Pun intended.)

And they could have lived with God without a fall, just like people in the Millennium will. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by LoveIsTruth

[LoveIsTruth]

9 hours ago, Rimon said:

So they fell, as they were sent to do, to bring this world up.  

They were sent NOT to fall. How do I know this? Because that's what the Father commanded them.

[LoveIsTruth]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:38 PM, Anddenex said:

The musings of the OP remind me a little of a previous poster who would present his interpretation of scripture as "sound" and the prophets/apostles interpretation as "opinion" and "weakness" of men.

Here are items of speculation (not overtly true) provided by the OP:

1) Does this not say that there was no way for Adam to keep the first commandment to multiply without transgressing the second commandment not to partake. No it does not.

This is not speculation. This is calculation:

1) God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7), and

2) He commanded them to multiply without partaking of the forbidden fruit, which means

3) They COULD do what God commanded them. 

End of proof.

[Moonbeast32]

This is one of the most surreal threads I've ever browsed. It's like OP and Eve are AI text generators.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Moonbeast32

[estradling75]

9 hours ago, LoveIsTruth said:

Please give me a context for  

"We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/10/constancy-amid-change?lang=eng

 

I have enough context for my understanding.  You are the one choking on this bit of gospel meat... and I can not chew it for you.  Ponder on what prevalent lie constantly dogs the reputation of Adam and Eve and their actions.  When you understand the context and this is a counter to that, then you can see how you are wresting the words of the prophets just like people wrest the words of Paul.   And just because you are choking on it does not give you the right to harm others which is what you are doing. 

[pam]

Thread is now closed.   When it becomes an entire page of one person's ideology it's time to close.