The trinity = the family

[NeedleinA]

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm not going to accept general references to him as he and him... But the key here is that we dont know the gender of the Holy ghost.

In contrast, an actual apostle of the Lord, Elder Marion G. Romney shared:

Quote

Jesus referred to the Holy Ghost as a male person. Speaking to his disciples, he said:
“… It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7. Italics added.)
And further,
“… when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
“He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” (John 16:13–14. Italics added.)

[brotherofJared]

6 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

In contrast, an actual apostle of the Lord, Elder Marion G. Romney shared:

Apparently, you missed the point. Marion G Romney takes from the New Testament reference saying that He, Christ, will send him unto you. I believe I was very clear when I said I will not accept the words "him" and "he" to conclude that the Holy Ghost is a man. I don't care who said it. 

Now if you want to argue what gender the Holy Ghost is, find me a GA that spells it out that the Holy Ghost is a man, not is referred to as a man. Marion is able to accept masculine pronouns as a definition of the sex on a person that we are not sure of. I am not able to do so.

For me, a 2000-year-old document that we have no original text for is simply not good enough. The reference to the Spirit of the Lord appearing in the form of a man, IMO, is the premortal Christ, the same being who appeared to the Brother of Jared. I do not believe that was the Holy Ghost, even though Talmage and Romney do. They assert that belief in square brackets and I simply don't agree with their assertion.

Let me be clear here. I'm not saying that the Holy Ghost is a girl. I'm just saying that I believe that is a possibility. I see nothing wrong with the idea. I'm okay either way if the Holy Ghost is a woman or a man. It doesn't undo the trinity nor does it affect their familial relationship. It's only a possibility that I am willing to be corrected. However, you haven't provided the evidence that would correct my ideas and I have found none.

IMO, you all are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[NeedleinA]

5 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

find me a GA that spells it out

vs.

5 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't care who said it.

D&C 124:46

Quote

46 But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them.

[NeedleinA]

5 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

For me, a 2000-year-old document that we have no original text for is simply not good enough.

Alma 30:43

Quote

43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.

[anatess2]

14 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

What I said is not confusing at all.

The issue here is one of two things. Either I dont know or I just disagree with ur interpretation. But u cannot be confused about what I just said. If u have a definitive doctrinal statement about the gender of the Holy Ghost, please let me know.  I'm not going to accept general references to him as he and him. That does not satisfy what I consider definitive doctrinal evidence. If I dont know he gender, where I believe the priesthood is involved, we general will identify the person as a male. But the key here is that we dont know the gender of the Holy ghost.

That may be ur definition but it isnt the dictionary definition. I know that the trinity make up the Godhead but the definition is about the three persons who are one God.  That's the definition. LDS believe that the trinity are the three beings who make up the Godhead and we believe they are one God. Nothing in the OP does any damage to either definition. 

The son and the Holy ghost are siblings. They are children of God. That makes them family. The confusion u r experiencing is totally self manufactured.

@Vort, this is a case study for you.  Remember that movie Arrival?  How do you reach understanding with somebody who looks at a banana and tells you it's not a banana because he doesn't think a banana is a banana?

Edited February 12, 2020 by anatess2

[anatess2]

6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Now if you want to argue what gender the Holy Ghost is, find me a GA that spells it out that the Holy Ghost is a man, not is referred to as a man. Marion is able to accept masculine pronouns as a definition of the sex on a person that we are not sure of. I am not able to do so.

“That the [Holy Ghost] is capable of manifesting Himself in the form and figure of man,” wrote Dr. James E. Talmage, “is indicated by the wonderful interview between the Spirit and Nephi, in which He revealed Himself to the prophet, questioned him concerning his desires and belief, instructed him in the things of God, speaking face to face with the man. ‘I spake unto him,’ says Nephi, ‘as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.’” (Discourses on the Holy Ghost, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Bookcraft, Inc., 1959, p. 13.)

Edited February 12, 2020 by anatess2

[brotherofJared]

deleted

Edited February 13, 2020 by brotherofJared

[brotherofJared]

12 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Alma 30:43

Apparently, u missed the point.

[brotherofJared]

12 hours ago, anatess2 said:

@Vort, this is a case study for you.  Remember that movie Arrival?  How do you reach understanding with somebody who looks at a banana and tells you it's not a banana because he doesn't think a banana is a banana?

How do reach some who thinks they have a banana and they don't? 🙄

[brotherofJared]

12 hours ago, anatess2 said:

“That the [Holy Ghost] is capable of manifesting Himself in the form and figure of man,” wrote Dr. James E. Talmage, “is indicated by the wonderful interview between the Spirit and Nephi, in which He revealed Himself to the prophet, questioned him concerning his desires and belief, instructed him in the things of God, speaking face to face with the man. ‘I spake unto him,’ says Nephi, ‘as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.’” (Discourses on the Holy Ghost, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Bookcraft, Inc., 1959, p. 13.)

I saw that. I read that wonderful interview as well and in my reading, that wasnt the holy ghost but was the pre-mortal Christ. 

[e v e]

12 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

I saw that. I read that wonderful interview as well and in my reading, that wasnt the holy ghost but was the pre-mortal Christ. 

where do i find this to read... i have met Christ... I should read that. 

[NeedleinA]

On 2/10/2020 at 11:45 PM, brotherofJared said:

😂🤣

25 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

🤣🤣🤣

Ecclesiastes 7

Quote

6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the ^alaughter of the fool: this also is ^bvanity.

Alma 30

Quote

47 But behold, it is ^abetter that thy soul should be ^blost than that thou shouldst be the means of bringing many souls down to destruction, by thy lying and by thy flattering words;

[brotherofJared]

50 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Ecclesiastes 7

Alma 30

Keep going. Someone loves ur.posts. I get what ur saying. If I don't agree with ur view of things I'm to be condemned. And I'll tell u the same thing intelligent evangelicals. Any place is better where people like u r not.

I have repeatedly stated that I am simply leaving the option open. I personally believe that the Holy Ghost is a man but i could be wrong. 

Until I have a face to face with the Holy Ghost and know he is a man or someone who I respect reports that they know he is a man, I see no reason to close the option. Marion didn't have enough to make a blatant statement that the Holy Ghost is a man. He simply stated that Christ used masculine pronouns when referring to the Holy Ghost. That is not enough for me to make the claim that the Holy Ghost is a male either. IMO, Marion and I are in agreement. You guys are not. U all seem to know something that no GA has been willing to back even though they may also believe he is a male.

I think it pious to place yourselves in a position to condemn my willingness to be taught. Ur scoffs and scorn is not unlike the people in Lehi's vision in the great and spacious building.

Go ahead and puff up ur chest. Beat it and roar like a lion about how wrong I am. I have nothing to fear. I will not be embarrassed by my understanding because I'm willing to accept that I don't know. I'm still baffled by how Mormons can be so much worse than our critics.

Edited February 13, 2020 by brotherofJared

[brotherofJared]

1 hour ago, e v e said:

where do i find this to read... i have met Christ... I should read that. 

1 Nephi 11:11, but read the entire encounter. Here is the link: 1 Neph 11

[NeedleinA]

On 2/10/2020 at 11:45 PM, brotherofJared said:

😂🤣

2 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

🤣🤣🤣

52 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Any place is better where people like u r not.

vs.

52 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

I'm still baffled by how Mormons can be so much worse than our critics.

3 Nephi 14:

Quote

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

[anatess2]

10 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

How do reach some who thinks they have a banana and they don't? 🙄

Yep.  My point exactly.  So, here's my suggestion... you go study what a banana really is.  People like Prophets, Seers, and Revelators - like James Talmage - can help you.

[mordorbund]

10 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Any place is better where people like u r not.

YYURYYUBICURYY4ME

[brotherofJared]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Yep.  My point exactly.  So, here's my suggestion... you go study what a banana really is.  People like Prophets, Seers, and Revelators - like James Talmage - can help you.

Yes. That's my point exactly. So, here's my suggest... you go study the scriptures and when you find a passage that says the Holy Ghost is a man, not appears in the form of a man with a vague reference to who that spirit actually is or some masculine pronoun passages and then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, we really have nothing further to discuss. You have your opinion and I have mine. You could be wrong. I'm most definitely not.

[brotherofJared]

 

 

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11 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

vs.

3 Nephi 14:

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Indeed. Go talk to the mirror.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

YYURYYUBICURYY4ME

I'm certainly too wise for Emmy. Too clever, too. I bet she wouldn't even have figured out we were talking about her.

[e v e]

I didn't know would be an issue... I thought, the thread was sweet, and conforms to early christian thoughts. When BrotherOfJared mentioned the pre-mortal christ, I can see (in my own understanding since I am not LDS) an analogous situation to that and it made sense - since I agree that Christ can appear to us, since I saw Him and talked to Him. On the other hand, makes no sense the "Ghost" concept to me. The Old Testament never mentions a "ghost", only the OT mentions His Spirit, and when the OT mentions His Spirit, it is in Feminine terms and language, always that I have found.  

I'm really most focused on the Old Testament, since the prophets are speaking of End Times, right now...and so I read all that most carefully always comparing Hebrew and English so I can see what the context is, to the best of my ability. My interest in that topic is not to do with anything Catholic. I was raised catholic but that was 4 decades ago and I left that church when i was 17. The family did not have interest in the Mary topic or such and was not too religious and I was the only one I know of in the family who read scripture. They just went to church on Sunday. No theology was taught to me except at catholic school but I slept through it. For those 4 decades I forgot all about it. This interest in me about Her as His Spirit came about because a) I met Him and He showed me this, clearly. Whether anyone (would) believe me is not something I had thought about. I was immediately accused of things by Evangelicals I know for saying this yet I was surprised this forum didn't like it. That is probably because of my ignorance of LDS views. b) I study scripture using Hebrew and interlinear and I was struck by that the scripture agrees with my experience in A.) and c) I then, after a) and b), began to study online and discovered that many early christians concurred with that She was His Spirit (regardless how she would appear be it pillar of fire or cloud etc.) Even Irenaeus understood this. Then after a), b) and c) I talked to other non LDS christians since I mostly know non-lds (since I myself was never LDS and am not around any). That is when I found out this early christian view is now denounced it seems (by moderns). But I thought here it would be accepted...so that's why I am a bit shocked and silent now. The thing is, that once i understood that she is His Spirit, the trinity for the first time in my entire life made sense. It is HE and His FAMILY. He, His Wife, and His Son... whether that may look like to us in our limited understanding as they in their immortal form, a human like or human looking form, or in a form of spirit guiding us. However they appear or act, They are by their total Nature - God. 

So I am a bit hurt about why this is a problem. There was a poster a while back, a few days ago, who said something about an organizational trinity, or something about someone else being the trinity, not God. I can't accept that. God is the trinity, not a "selected" or "elected"  Group. God is the trinity by Nature and not by selections or votes or whatever. Every soul of his is His by their very nature, as having been born of Him. Nature not selection or vote. It's a family.

Edited February 13, 2020 by e v e

[brotherofJared]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that I either accept your way or it's the highway. If your way was the right way, as if it made any difference, why is it that you cannot show me?

I've already told you I personally believe the Holy Ghost to be a man. But that's not good enough. No. I must also absolutely deny the possibility that my belief might be wrong. It seems incredible that a few persnickety individuals would ride me through post after post demanding conformity or damnation ... to what end? The salvation of my soul?

I would think that it matters little whether or not the Holy Ghost is male or female. She is still the Holy Ghost. I have to wonder, if one who denies the Holy Ghost might become a Son or Daughter of Perdition, that if the Holy Ghost revealed to them that she is a woman, wouldn't accepting your demand for conformity place their salvation in jeopardy?

I would wager that none of you know the gender of the Holy Ghost by either an actual witness or even by a person who has actually witnessed it. That you believe your interpretations of what you've read and heard is true doesn't make it true. It only makes it what you believe and even GA's can be wrong about what they believe, so why can't you all be wrong about what you believe? The funny thing is, it doesn't matter, you are willing to hound a person who doesn't happen to believe as you do and that is the reason I won't be where ever you are.

I puzzle over Nephi's interview. Why did he say, "I beheld him that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord" This statement only makes sense if Nephi understood that the Spirit of the Lord wasn't actually a man. It is clear that Nephi knew that the being he was talking to was a spirit. That does not explain the difference between the form he was talking to and his understanding of what the Spirit of the Lord was. It could, but it is vague.

Nephi came from the pre-exilic Jerusalem when Asherah was still in the temple. Because a great deal of the Old Testament had be re-written to remove direct references to her, we know very little about her, but there is enough evidence to support the worship of a feminine deity in the temple in Israel. The Book of Mormon has this reference that seems to support the idea that they understood, as Nephi alludes, that there is a female deity present in the Godhead. Mosiah 8:20

O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!

Wisdom is the word that was frequently used to describe this female deity. It is our weakness that we don't know any more about her than we do. As I said, I'm not sure this is referring to the Holy Ghost, but I'm willing to accept it if it is. Nephi's interview doesn't clear up the Spirit of the Lord's gender, masculine pronouns don't either.

Regardless of the gender of the Holy Ghost, The trinity still equals family.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I'm certainly too wise for Emmy. Too clever, too. I bet she wouldn't even have figured out we were talking about her.

Me too, Tem.

[e v e]

15 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that I either accept your way or it's the highway. If your way was the right way, as if it made any difference, why is it that you cannot show me?

I've already told you I personally believe the Holy Ghost to be a man. But that's not good enough. No. I must also absolutely deny the possibility that my belief might be wrong. It seems incredible that a few persnickety individuals would ride me through post after post demanding conformity or damnation ... to what end? The salvation of my soul?

I would think that it matters little whether or not the Holy Ghost is male or female. She is still the Holy Ghost. I have to wonder, if one who denies the Holy Ghost might become a Son or Daughter of Perdition, that if the Holy Ghost revealed to them that she is a woman, wouldn't accepting your demand for conformity place their salvation in jeopardy?

I would wager that none of you know the gender of the Holy Ghost by either an actual witness or even by a person who has actually witnessed it. That you believe your interpretations of what you've read and heard is true doesn't make it true. It only makes it what you believe and even GA's can be wrong about what they believe, so why can't you all be wrong about what you believe? The funny thing is, it doesn't matter, you are willing to hound a person who doesn't happen to believe as you do and that is the reason I won't be where ever you are.

I puzzle over Nephi's interview. Why did he say, "I beheld him that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord" This statement only makes sense if Nephi understood that the Spirit of the Lord wasn't actually a man. It is clear that Nephi knew that the being he was talking to was a spirit. That does not explain the difference between the form he was talking to and his understanding of what the Spirit of the Lord was. It could, but it is vague.

Nephi came from the pre-exilic Jerusalem when Asherah was still in the temple. Because a great deal of the Old Testament had be re-written to remove direct references to her, we know very little about her, but there is enough evidence to support the worship of a feminine deity in the temple in Israel. The Book of Mormon has this reference that seems to support the idea that they understood, as Nephi alludes, that there is a female deity present in the Godhead. Mosiah 8:20

O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!

Wisdom is the word that was frequently used to describe this female deity. It is our weakness that we don't know any more about her than we do. As I said, I'm not sure this is referring to the Holy Ghost, but I'm willing to accept it if it is. Nephi's interview doesn't clear up the Spirit of the Lord's gender, masculine pronouns don't either.

Regardless of the gender of the Holy Ghost, The trinity still equals family.

Can you explain to me why the use of Ghost as opposed to Spirit in discussion of His spirit? I always thought the Ghost term was something introduced in maybe KJV or other protestant bibles or else an Americanisation. I'm a scholar (european descent) so for some reason Ghost seems an american colloquialism?  Thank you for the mosiah. i can go read. What book is that in? 

Edited February 13, 2020 by e v e

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, e v e said:

Can you explain to me why the use of Ghost as opposed to Spirit in discussion of His spirit? I always thought the Ghost term was something introduced in maybe KJV or other protestant bibles or else an Americanisation. I'm a scholar (european descent) so for some reason Ghost seems an american colloquialism?  Thank you for the mosiah. i can go read. What book is that in? 

Serious question: I thought you were a quasi-Ivy League professor of something or other that would make you so knowledgeable about religious history and historic English scriptural translations that the answer to the above question would be so staggeringly obvious that you could answer it in your sleep. Why are you asking this?