The trinity = the family

[e v e]

I believe it hurts God incredibly much that many, many souls were so deeply trained to deny mother.

Edited February 11, 2020 by e v e

[e v e]

I also believe that the conversion of the term Spirit into a male concept was a medieval project going on now for centuries. Some church fathers such as Irenaeus, knew the truth. What I find so strange is that many who deny mother at the same time like Irenaeus and gloss over the fact that Irenaeus' theology utterly accepts mother, even if his explanations of this are obscure.

Edited February 11, 2020 by e v e

[anatess2]

48 minutes ago, e v e said:

I also believe that the conversion of the term Spirit into a male concept was a medieval project going on now for centuries. Some church fathers such as Irenaeus, knew the truth. What I find so strange is that many who deny mother at the same time like Irenaeus and gloss over the fact that Irenaeus' theology utterly accepts mother, even if his explanations of this are obscure.

The LDS restored gospel posits that the Holy Spirit of the Godhead is male and is distinct and separate from Heavenly Mother who is the eternal wife of Heavenly Father.  In addition, the LDS restored gospel teaches that gender is an eternal nature.

Edited February 11, 2020 by anatess2

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, e v e said:

I also believe that the conversion of the term Spirit into a male concept was a medieval project going on now for centuries. Some church fathers such as Irenaeus, knew the truth. What I find so strange is that many who deny mother at the same time like Irenaeus and gloss over the fact that Irenaeus' theology utterly accepts mother, even if his explanations of this are obscure.

LDS Christian totally acknowledge Heavenly Mother, though she's a different person than the Spirit.

Mother in Heaven

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all human beings, male and female, are beloved spirit children of heavenly parents, a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This understanding is rooted in scriptural and prophetic teachings about the nature of God, our relationship to Deity, and the godly potential of men and women. The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is a cherished and distinctive belief among Latter-day Saints.

While there is no record of a formal revelation to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, some early Latter-day Saint women recalled that he personally taught them about a Mother in Heaven. The earliest published references to the doctrine appeared shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, in documents written by his close associates. The most notable expression of the idea is found in a poem by Eliza R. Snow, entitled “My Father in Heaven” and now known as the hymn “O My Father.” This text declares: “In the heav’ns are parents single? / No, the thought makes reason stare; / Truth is reason—truth eternal / Tells me I’ve a mother there.”

Subsequent Church leaders have affirmed the existence of a Mother in Heaven. In 1909, the First Presidency taught that “all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.” Susa Young Gates, a prominent leader in the Church, wrote in 1920 that Joseph Smith’s visions and teachings revealed the truth that “the divine Mother, [is] side by side with the divine Father.” And in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” issued in 1995, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles declared, “Each [person] is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.”

Prophets have taught that our heavenly parents work together for the salvation of the human family. “We are part of a divine plan designed by Heavenly Parents who love us,” taught Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. President Harold B. Lee stated, “We forget that we have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother who are even more concerned, probably, than our earthly father and mother, and that influences from beyond are constantly working to try to help us when we do all we can.”

Latter-day Saints direct their worship to Heavenly Father, in the name of Christ, and do not pray to Heavenly Mother. In this, they follow the pattern set by Jesus Christ, who taught His disciples to “always pray unto the Father in my name.” Latter-day Saints are taught to pray to Heavenly Father, but as President Gordon B. Hinckley said, “The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her.” Indeed, as Elder Rudger Clawson wrote, “We honor woman when we acknowledge Godhood in her eternal Prototype.”

As with many other truths of the gospel, our present knowledge about a Mother in Heaven is limited. Nevertheless, we have been given sufficient knowledge to appreciate the sacredness of this doctrine and to comprehend the divine pattern established for us as children of heavenly parents. Latter-day Saints believe that this pattern is reflected in Paul’s statement that “neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” Men and women cannot be exalted without each other. Just as we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. As Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said, “Our theology begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them.”

Source and more links: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/mother-in-heaven?lang=eng

[e v e]

That's a good link. Thanks for that, had not seen it before.

I do pray to He and She, since they are One being - as brother of jared pointed out above somewhere - but that's just me. (hope I paraphrased him correctly on that.)  Since they are one being then praying to Him includes praying to her. Just as every child asks of both their mother and father for help, love and guidance.

I know of hardly anyone else on earth who does pray to her specifically, similar to you Jane, of course, which means many agree with what you wrote....  but I think each soul should follow their choice of belief and that it's not for me to tell anyone what that belief will be. Each is saved to Him alone, by themselves, by their choosing Him. I would certainly NOT be interfering with any soul's choice.

Edited February 11, 2020 by e v e

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, e v e said:

That's a good link. Thanks for that, had not seen it before.

I do pray to He and She, since they are One being - as brother of jared pointed out above somewhere - but that's just me. (hope I paraphrased him correctly on that.)  Since they are one being then praying to Him includes praying to her. Just as every child asks of both their mother and father for help, love and guidance.

The word "being" here is once again comes with Creedal connotations and entering into that territory.  Let's just steer clear of that, since no one chatting on this thread is a Creedal Christian and there's no need to get things muddy.  

1 minute ago, e v e said:

I know of hardly anyone else on earth does pray to her, of course, which agrees with what Jane wrote....  but I think each soul should follow their choice of belief and that it's not for me to tell anyone what that belief will be. Each is saved to Him alone, by themselves, by their choosing Him. I would certainly NOT be interfering with any soul's choice.

Totally acknowledge your view there, but as an LDS Christian I don't agree with it.  God's Prophets have directed us that such is not appropriate.  

Again, totally acknowledge you believe otherwise.  

[e v e]

If we want to be like Them, as the elder stated, then it seems, we would want to talk to both of them. To me praying = loving, adoring, talking to and listening to. That is my definition of prayer. Also, she is One with Him. Maybe that helps express how I respond to the article. I've saved it so I can view it when I am at home.

[e v e]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The word "being" here is once again comes with Creedal connotations and entering into that territory.  Let's just steer clear of that, since no one chatting on this thread is a Creedal Christian and there's no need to get things muddy.  

Totally acknowledge your view there, but as an LDS Christian I don't agree with it.  God's Prophets have directed us that such is not appropriate.  

Again, totally acknowledge you believe otherwise.  

okay. Mainly I just wrote to say that after reading what a poster brotherofJared wrote, where he said that they are One.

Edited February 11, 2020 by e v e

[e v e]

I just don't learn by being forced to see things I didn't see for myself. I only know so far what He shows me. He is my teacher.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, e v e said:

If we want to be like Them, as the elder stated, then it seems, we would want to talk to both of them. To me praying = loving, adoring, talking to and listening to. That is my definition of prayer. Also, she is One with Him. Maybe that helps express how I respond to the article. I've saved it so I can view it when I am at home.

Totally acknolwdging your view there.

 

Explaining LDS Christian views: scripture instructs us to pray "Our Father, who art in heaven...." (Matthew 6:9, 3 Nephi 13:9, 3 Nephi 17:15, 3 Nephi 18:21, 3 Nephi 19:19-21, (emphasis mine ).  So that's what we do.  Modern day Prophet of God, Gordon B. Hinckley states:

"Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven...The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her...none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.^[1] "

[e v e]

Thanks for showing me what you believe.

[e v e]

I so understand what you and others believe, but I don't see a problem with my view of trinity = family. It's perfect for me.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, e v e said:

I so understand what you and others believe, but I don't see a problem with my view of trinity = family. It's perfect for me.

We do disagree on what's the Lord's Truth, but totally acknowledge your right to believe as you do. 

"11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

[Vort]

I would note that this is the "Christian Beliefs" subforum. It bothers me when non-Latter-day Saints use the LDS Gospel Discussion subforum to preach their own beliefs and deny the doctrine of the Restored Church. So by the same token, maybe asserting the doctrines of the Restored Church (or at least our personal understanding of those doctrines) in response to someone proclaiming a non-LDS view might be less than ideal. To be clear, that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the former, since the ThirdHour forums are specifically LDS-oriented.

If e v e wants to pray to her idea of the feminine aspect of deity. then whatever. She can pray to a bush or a potato or an asteroid if she wants. My own opinion is that looking to find points of contact or contrast between e v e's beliefs and the teachings of the Restored Church is not useful, at least not in this case.

[brotherofJared]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The Godhead does not cease to be the Godhead if the Father would have chosen somebody other than his begotten Son.

There wasn't another. Christ was chosen from the beginning. We don't know why, we just knew he was.

 

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The Godhead does not cease to be the Godhead just because the Holy Ghost is not the Father's begotten Son.

But the Holy Ghost is still God's child, you say son, I say we don't know if the Holy Ghost is a son or a daughter, but since God is the Father of spirits and the Holy Ghost is a spirit, then clearly the Holy Ghost is a child of God.

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The Godhead does not cease to be the Godhead just because the Holy Mother is not mentioned in it.

And, as far as I can tell, no one has suggested that the Godhead would cease to be the Godhead. In fact, I don't believe we were ever talking about the Godhead. We were talking about the individual members of the Godhead usually referred to as the Trinity. We have a unique understanding of who those members are and what their relationship is between them. That relationship is familial, Father and Son. Certainly, the Holy Ghost would be a sibling to Christ.

I agree. The Godhead doesn't cease to be the Godhead because the Heavenly Mother is not mentioned in it, but the fact that she's not mentioned doesn't make it not equal to a family either. I really can't tell what your issue is concerning the OP. To me, it appears that you just want to be right at any cost including denying the obvious family connection in the Godhead. And I'm still stumped about that, but I suppose you won't bother to clear that up.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

There wasn't another. Christ was chosen from the beginning. We don't know why, we just knew he was.

Sure.  But, Jesus being a begotten Son of God is not the reason he was chosen.  He was chosen because he was qualified to atone for the sins of mankind.

 

Quote

But the Holy Ghost is still God's child, you say son, I say we don't know if the Holy Ghost is a son or a daughter, but since God is the Father of spirits and the Holy Ghost is a spirit, then clearly the Holy Ghost is a child of God.

Now that's confusing.  Because you're LDS... and there's no question at all in LDS teaching what gender the Holy Ghost is.  Remember, gender in the LDS faith is an eternal characteristic.

We are all Spirit children of God.  Jesus Christ is his begotten Son.  The only one.

 

Quote

And, as far as I can tell, no one has suggested that the Godhead would cease to be the Godhead. In fact, I don't believe we were ever talking about the Godhead. We were talking about the individual members of the Godhead usually referred to as the Trinity.  

See what happens when we make liberties as to the meaning of a word?  Complete confusion.

The individual members of the Godhead is NOT the Trinity.  They are the PERSONS of the Godhead.  

 

Quote

 

We have a unique understanding of who those members are and what their relationship is between them. That relationship is familial, Father and Son. Certainly, the Holy Ghost would be a sibling to Christ.

Sigh.  Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father.  The Holy Ghost is a brother of Christ in Spirit - in the same manner that you are my brother.  Yes, the Kingdom of God is one family.  But I'm very sure that's not the concept of family that the OP is referencing.  Rather, she is referencing the 3 persons of the Godhead as being Father/Mother/Child, hence the references to the Holy Ghost as being female - something we do not believe is true in the LDS faith.

 

Quote

I agree. The Godhead doesn't cease to be the Godhead because the Heavenly Mother is not mentioned in it,

Well, there ya go.  Trinity does not = family.

The Presidency of the LDS Church doesn't cease to be the Presidency because President Nelson's wife is not in it.  Therefore, just because President Nelson has a wife and children doesn't make the Presidency of the LDS Church organized by family even if he decides to call one or even two of his sons as his counselors.  They are counselors not because they're his sons, they're counselors because they are worthy to hold the keys.

Edited February 11, 2020 by anatess2

[NeedleinA]

22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Now that's confusing.  Because you're LDS... and there's no question at all in LDS teaching what gender the Holy Ghost is.  Remember, gender in the LDS faith is an eternal characteristic.

"Confusing" is putting it nicely.

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

I say we don't know if the Holy Ghost is a son or a daughter,

1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

Care to provide a reference?

Actual Church teachings, Holy Ghost:

Quote

He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones.
He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter.
He “witnesses of the Father and the Son”
Through Him, we can receive gifts of the Spirit for our benefit and for the benefit of those we love and serve (see Doctrine and Covenants 46:9–11).
He is the Comforter (John 14:26).
Etc.

[brotherofJared]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Sure.  But, Jesus being a begotten Son of God is not the reason he was chosen. 

I dont believe that I implied that it was the reason he was chosen. 

 

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

He was chosen because he was qualified to atone for the sins of mankind.

Yes. And so? Is he not still the son of God? No matter how u slice it. The trinity is familial. No one, as far as I know, has made the claim that it was the reason Christ was chosen. Stop trying to make it so.

[brotherofJared]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The LDS restored gospel posits that the Holy Spirit of the Godhead is male

Reference please.

 

 

[brotherofJared]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS Christian totally acknowledge Heavenly Mother, though she's a different person than the Spirit.

On the rare moment that a Christian accepts the idea of a mother in heaven, why do u feel you need to provide evidence that we agree?

None of ur QUOTE supports ur statement that she is a different person than the spirit.

[brotherofJared]

6 hours ago, e v e said:

I do pray to He and She, since they are One being - as brother of jared pointed out above somewhere

I was agreeing with the similarities in what you believe and what we believe. They are one, but I dont believe they are not one being. They are two separate beings each with their own identity. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by brotherofJared

[brotherofJared]

6 hours ago, e v e said:

Since they are one being then praying to Him includes praying to her

I believe that when we pray to the Father, she is equally aware and responsive to our prayers, but not because they are one being. It is because they are one and she is not excluded from our lives, desires and questions.

[brotherofJared]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Now that's confusing. 

What I said is not confusing at all.

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Because you're LDS... and there's no question at all in LDS teaching what gender the Holy Ghost is. 

The issue here is one of two things. Either I dont know or I just disagree with ur interpretation. But u cannot be confused about what I just said. If u have a definitive doctrinal statement about the gender of the Holy Ghost, please let me know.  I'm not going to accept general references to him as he and him. That does not satisfy what I consider definitive doctrinal evidence. If I dont know he gender, where I believe the priesthood is involved, we general will identify the person as a male. But the key here is that we dont know the gender of the Holy ghost.

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The individual members of the Godhead is NOT the Trinity.  They are the PERSONS of the Godhead. 

That may be ur definition but it isnt the dictionary definition. I know that the trinity make up the Godhead but the definition is about the three persons who are one God.  That's the definition. LDS believe that the trinity are the three beings who make up the Godhead and we believe they are one God. Nothing in the OP does any damage to either definition. 

The son and the Holy ghost are siblings. They are children of God. That makes them family. The confusion u r experiencing is totally self manufactured.

[brotherofJared]

2 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

"Confusing" is putting it nicely.

Actual Church teachings, Holy Ghost:

Is there one in there that states that he is a man? Nope.

[brotherofJared]

Regardless of what the actual gender of the Holy Ghost is, the OP doesnt affect the trinity definition and the idea that it is a family is there.