The trinity = the family

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, e v e said:

Can you explain to me why the use of Ghost as opposed to Spirit in discussion of His spirit? I always thought the Ghost term was something introduced in maybe KJV or other protestant bibles or else an Americanisation. I'm a scholar (european descent) so for some reason Ghost seems an american colloquialism?

"Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost" are synonymous.  Scriptures use both.  LDS Christians do tend to use "Holy Ghost" slightly more, which is purely a cultural thing.  

2 minutes ago, e v e said:

  Thank you for the mosiah. i can go read. What book is that in?  

It's part of the Book of Mormon.  Link: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/1?lang=eng

 

 

[e v e]

Mother is mother of all adamite souls. She is life, breath, ruach. Given that,  I don't get why anyone would object to her deity, that she is His spirit? 

[Vort]

[e v e]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Serious question: I thought you were a quasi-Ivy League professor of something or other that would make you so knowledgeable about religious history and historic English scriptural translations that the answer to the above question would be so staggeringly obvious that you could answer it in your sleep. Why are you asking this?

There are lots of specializations. While I have researched many topics, I have not researched how translations came to use the term 'holy Ghost'. Rather than go spend two days on it, I asked, assuming others here do know. In that case, why reinvent the wheel if I can learn the details and sources and where to go find them from someone else.

[e v e]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Serious question: I thought you were a quasi-Ivy League professor of something or other that would make you so knowledgeable about religious history and historic English scriptural translations that the answer to the above question would be so staggeringly obvious that you could answer it in your sleep. Why are you asking this?

I'm asking this because while to you it is obvious, to me it is not, since the word Ghost, all by itself, has negative etymological connotations and I wondered how and why it was originally introduced (the history of that, what century, by whom, and why) as a substitute for the world spirit. Since I do not know, why not ask someone. Being a professor of one subject doesn't make me a professor of every subject. For example, I know little to nothing about LDS. Even though I am a professor. LDS is not something I have studied enough to be knowledgeable of.

[Vort]

Just now, e v e said:

There are lots of specializations. While I have researched many topics, I have not researched how translations came to use the term 'holy Ghost'. Rather than go spend two days on it, I asked, assuming others here do know. In that case, why reinvent the wheel if I can learn the details and sources and where to go find them from someone else.

So you, a trained historian and high-falutin professor with an obviously pronounced religious bent, don't know basic things about scriptural translations and such. Yet you assume that such hyperspecialized knowledge, something so unusual that even a highly trained person such as yourself has never come across it, would likely be held by a random group of people on the internet.

Seems kinda, I dunno, odd.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, e v e said:

I'm asking this because while to you it is obvious, to me it is not, since the word Ghost, all by itself, has negative etymological connotations

"Negative etymological connotations"? "Ghost"? What "negative etymological connotations" do you perceive in a word that comes from an Old English term meaning "breath" or "spirit"?

[e v e]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

So you, a trained historian and high-falutin professor with an obviously pronounced religious bent, don't know basic things about scriptural translations and such. Yet you assume that such hyperspecialized knowledge, something so unusual that even a highly trained person such as yourself has never come across it, would likely be held by a random group of people on the internet.

Seems kinda, I dunno, odd.

what you repeated back is not at all what I said. There are Many religions. There are professors who Only know about one of them or two of them. That doesn't make them stupid. I've come across it. I never ever use it myself, and wondered how you as LDS adopted that or why. I received an answer. It was used in your scriptures by Joseph Smith is what I now understand.  I never asked Why he chose that, and don't know if the why was important so I did not ask that. Done.

[Jane_Doe]

42 minutes ago, e v e said:

So I am a bit hurt about why this is a problem. There was a poster a while back, a few days ago, who said something about an organizational trinity, or something about someone else being the trinity, not God. I can't accept that. God is the trinity, not a "selected" or "elected"  Group. God is the trinity by Nature and not by selections or votes or whatever. Every soul of his is His by their very nature, as having been born of Him. Nature not selection or vote. It's a family.

Going to break this down into different aspects:

1) Your views being your views: zero problem there.  You have the right to believe whatever your conscious dictates to be true.

2) Any possibility of an LDS Christian agreeing with you views:  from the standpoint of doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, your beliefs is partially correct and partially false.   Yes, there is a Mother in Heaven (that part is correct).  But no that Mother in Heaven is not the Holy Spirit-- they are two different people.  So while an LDS Christian totally agrees with the Mother in Heaven part, there's a disagreement with your belief that Heavenly Mother  = the Holy Spirit.  

[Vort]

1 minute ago, e v e said:

I received an answer. It was used in your scriptures by Joseph Smith is what I now understand.

That is what you understand, yet that is not what Jane_Doe wrote.

The term "Holy Ghost" is used in the King James (or Authorized) Version of the Bible, by far the most widely used English translation in history. And Joseph Smith didn't write the King James Version of the Bible. You cannot possibly be ignorant of this, given your highly credentialed background. So I am left wondering still: Why the question?

[e v e]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Going to break this down into different aspects:

1) Your views being your views: zero problem there.  You have the right to believe whatever your conscious dictates to be true.

2) Any possibility of an LDS Christian agreeing with you views:  from the standpoint of doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, your beliefs is partially correct and partially false.   Yes, there is a Mother in Heaven (that part is correct).  But no that Mother in Heaven is not the Holy Spirit-- they are two different people.  So while an LDS Christian totally agrees with the Mother in Heaven part, there's a disagreement with your belief that Heavenly Mother  = the Holy Spirit.  

Okay. But she is both deity and His wife ? So why then would there be a spirit who was not her as part of the trinity (who is God and created all life and souls?) And why then is she referred to as mother of all?

I know what you believe. Evangelicals and others believe that also. I am trying to understand what makes sense based upon my own experience and understanding. I don't have to agree with things that don't make sense to me.

Edited February 13, 2020 by e v e

[e v e]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

That is what you understand, yet that is not what Jane_Doe wrote.

The term "Holy Ghost" is used in the King James (or Authorized) Version of the Bible, by far the most widely used English translation in history. And Joseph Smith didn't write the King James Version of the Bible. You cannot possibly be ignorant of this, given your highly credentialed background. So I am left wondering still: Why the question?

I'm not a protestant. I do not use the KJV as it is filled with mistakes. Yeah, I have seen it there. I assumed by 'scriptures' Jane referred to scriptures as being LDS scriptures.

Edited February 13, 2020 by e v e

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

So you, a trained historian and high-falutin professor with an obviously pronounced religious bent, don't know basic things about scriptural translations and such. Yet you assume that such hyperspecialized knowledge, something so unusual that even a highly trained person such as yourself has never come across it, would likely be held by a random group of people on the internet.

Seems kinda, I dunno, odd.

Plus, she has Catholic background...

 

Anyway.  

Different translations:

Latin Vulgate - Spiritus Sanctus - Holy Spirit

German - Heilige Geist - Holy Ghost.  

The King James Version of the Bible uses Holy Ghost more so than the Latin originated Holy Spirit.  The LDS faith uses the KJV version in scripture study so they tend to use Holy Ghost to refer to the 3rd person of the Godhead.  The Catholic Bible uses Holy Spirit hence, Catholics tend to use Holy Spirit to refer to the 3rd person in the Trinity.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, e v e said:

I assumed by 'scriptures' Jane referred to scriptures as being LDS scriptures.

Obviously she did. The Bible is part of LDS scripture.

[brotherofJared]

22 minutes ago, e v e said:

I didn't know would be an issue... I thought, the thread was sweet, and conforms to early christian thoughts. When BrotherOfJared mentioned the pre-mortal christ, I can see (in my own understanding since I am not LDS) an analogous situation to that and it made sense - since I agree that Christ can appear to us, since I saw Him and talked to Him. On the other hand, makes no sense the "Ghost" concept to me. The Old Testament never mentions a "ghost", only the OT mentions His Spirit, and when the OT mentions His Spirit, it is in Feminine terms and language, always that I have found.  

I'm really most focused on the Old Testament, since the prophets are speaking of End Times, right now...and so I read all that most carefully always comparing Hebrew and English so I can see what the context is, to the best of my ability. My interest in that topic is not to do with anything Catholic. I was raised catholic but that was 4 decades ago and I left that church when i was 17. The family did not have interest in the Mary topic or such and was not too religious and I was the only one I know of in the family who read scripture. They just went to church on Sunday. No theology was taught to me except at catholic school but I slept through it. For those 4 decades I forgot all about it. This interest in me about Her as His Spirit came about because a) I met Him and He showed me this, clearly. Whether anyone believes me is not something I had thought about. I was immediately accused of things by Evangelicals I know for saying this yet I was suprised this forum didn't like it. That is probably because of my ignorance of LDS views.

I don't believe all of the posts on this board represent LDS views as a church. They represent the personal views of a few individuals. Your OP was spot on. Now we're talking about something different that may or may not be related to your OP. As with evangelical sites, people have their views and often, they believe that their view is the only correct one, but no one knows everything, so don't worry about it. No one can take away a personal experience. They may disagree with your interpretation of that experience but they can't change the actual experience.

28 minutes ago, e v e said:

But I thought here it would be accepted...

Or, perhaps, reasonably discussed.

29 minutes ago, e v e said:

It is HE and His FAMILY. He, His Wife, and His Son...

While I agree that the trinity does equal family, I also believe that we are part of that family (all of us,  including Satan and all that followed him). I may be taking this out of context, but it appears that you, here, are presenting them as an exclusive family with no other members in it.

But we also believe that all of us have always existed and will always exist. Families, therefore, had to come later and I believe this is what brought us from beings who have always existed into spirits in an order of eldest is spiritual order but born in mortality in genealogical order in the meridian of time. Our spirits were begotten by the word of God, the Father, simply by organizing us into families, all of which, I believe we had a choice or an input into that structure and order.

This would suggest that there was an election (the scriptures suggest that there was a well) and that the three operate by agreement and capacity. Not by nature of their substance or being.

[e v e]

29 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Going to break this down into different aspects:

1) Your views being your views: zero problem there.  You have the right to believe whatever your conscious dictates to be true.

2) Any possibility of an LDS Christian agreeing with you views:  from the standpoint of doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, your beliefs is partially correct and partially false.   Yes, there is a Mother in Heaven (that part is correct).  But no that Mother in Heaven is not the Holy Spirit-- they are two different people.  So while an LDS Christian totally agrees with the Mother in Heaven part, there's a disagreement with your belief that Heavenly Mother  = the Holy Spirit.  

I don't believe things because of my conscience. I believe this (she is God) because He showed me and told me and later study of the old testament concurred. I understand that no one should believe something unless they themselves understand it and have the sources for it. I don't really understand why there is disagreement other than 'there is a disagreement.'

Edited February 13, 2020 by e v e

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, e v e said:

I'm asking this because while to you it is obvious, to me it is not, since the word Ghost, all by itself, has negative etymological connotations and I wondered how and why it was originally introduced (the history of that, what century, by whom, and why) as a substitute for the world spirit. Since I do not know, why not ask someone. Being a professor of one subject doesn't make me a professor of every subject. For example, I know little to nothing about LDS. Even though I am a professor. LDS is not something I have studied enough to be knowledgeable of.

LDS Christians has no negative connotations about the term "Holy Ghost".  It's used anonymously with "Holy Spirit".

Just now, e v e said:

I'm not a protestant. I do not use the KJV as it is filled with mistakes. Yeah, I have seen it there. I assumed by 'scriptures' Jane referred to scriptures as being LDS scriptures.

"Scriptures" incldues the Bible.  LDS Christians use the KJV, but completely acknowledge limitations in it's translation.

3 minutes ago, e v e said:

Okay. But she is both deity and His wife ? So why then would there be a spirit who was not her as part of the trinity (who is God and created all life and souls?) And why then is she referred to as mother of all?

I know what you believe. Evangelicals and others believe that also. I am trying to understand what makes sense based upon my own experience and understanding. I don't have to agree with things that don't make sense to me.

Heavenly Mother is indeed the Mother of all.  Just like the Father is the Father of all. 

 

Now I'm going to name FOUR different persons.

1) Heavenly Father.

2) Heavenly Mother.

3) Jesus Christ

4) The Holy Ghost.  

If I were to invite them all to dinner, then I would need to set four places.  

3 minutes ago, e v e said:

I know what you believe. Evangelicals and others believe that also. I am trying to understand what makes sense based upon my own experience and understanding. I don't have to agree with things that don't make sense to me.

LDS Christian belief =/= Evangelical beliefs.  

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, e v e said:

I'm not a protestant. I do not use the KJV as it is filled with mistakes. Yeah, I have seen it there. I assumed by 'scriptures' Jane referred to scriptures as being LDS scriptures.

The LDS scriptures:

The Holy Bible (OT and NT - we use the KJV in Sunday School)

The Book of Mormon

Doctrine and Covenants

Pear of Great Price

We sometimes refer to the whole thing as the quad when you want to buy the whole volume at a bookstore.

LDS Article of Faith: 
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.  We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

Therefore, although we use KJV in scripture study, it does not stand on its own.  It needs the Book of Mormon and the words of latter-day prophets to "translate" the teachings in it correctly.

 

[e v e]

1 minute ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't believe all of the posts on this board represent LDS views as a church. They represent the personal views of a few individuals. Your OP was spot on. Now we're talking about something different that may or may not be related to your OP. As with evangelical sites, people have their views and often, they believe that their view is the only correct one, but no one knows everything, so don't worry about it. No one can take away a personal experience. They may disagree with your interpretation of that experience but they can't change the actual experience.

Or, perhaps, reasonably discussed.

While I agree that the trinity does equal family, I also believe that we are part of that family (all of us,  including Satan and all that followed him). I may be taking this out of context, but it appears that you, here, are presenting them as an exclusive family with no other members in it.

But we also believe that all of us have always existed and will always exist. Families, therefore, had to come later and I believe this is what brought us from beings who have always existed into spirits in an order of eldest is spiritual order but born in mortality in genealogical order in the meridian of time. Our spirits were begotten by the word of God, the Father, simply by organizing us into families, all of which, I believe we had a choice or an input into that structure and order.

This would suggest that there was an election (the scriptures suggest that there was a well) and that the three operate by agreement and capacity. Not by nature of their substance or being.

Well, I do recognize that satan must have at one time been in that family...or, is still, but running a twisted messed up branch of it. I don't know if evangelicals think what I just said or if catholics do either. When I talked to anyone about this, last time I did, I was told that Adam was in hell and so was eve and they were done with, just as a judas figure who is done with. Of course God's family has other members, us! Because They have a son, who in turn has sons and daughters...so there are generations involved. God is the trinity and the same archetype or the trinity is the family that follows within those generations, where the father is patriarch, and then mother, and then the sons and daughters. The part I marked in red I am not sure about in what you wrote. 

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't believe all of the posts on this board represent LDS views as a church. They represent the personal views of a few individuals.

True.

But - the teaching of the Holy Ghost as a male personage in the Godhead is taught by the LDS Church and not just a personal view of a few individuals.  This is what I've been trying to tell you.

[brotherofJared]

27 minutes ago, e v e said:

Can you explain to me why the use of Ghost as opposed to Spirit in discussion of His spirit?

I can only guess. Initially, I used to believe that spirit = ghost, but that isn't entirely true. They have the same substance, but a ghost lived in a mortal body once whereas a spirit hasn't. Whether or not it makes any difference as to how we refer to the Holy Ghost may not be important, but for theological purposes, the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Ghost and apparently, there are many other names we can use to mean Holy Ghost.

 

32 minutes ago, e v e said:

Thank you for the mosiah. i can go read. What book is that in? 

The book of Mormon.

[e v e]

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS Christians has no negative connotations about the term "Holy Ghost".  It's used anonymously with "Holy Spirit".

"Scriptures" incldues the Bible.  LDS Christians use the KJV, but completely acknowledge limitations in it's translation.

Heavenly Mother is indeed the Mother of all.  Just like the Father is the Father of all. 

 

Now I'm going to name FOUR different persons.

1) Heavenly Father.

2) Heavenly Mother.

3) Jesus Christ

4) The Holy Ghost.  

If I were to invite them all to dinner, then I would need to set four places.  

LDS Christian belief =/= Evangelical beliefs.  

I don't know what you mean by the symbol  =/=.

It is very interesting the 4 you name for reasons I won't go into here. Because then we would have another thread if I replied as to what I understand about that...Plus it could be very very long-winded... and I'm  hesitant, because I thought this thread was sweet and innocent and the response was a bit different than I expected. I had been looking at this thread on my phone the first day or two, and since this was in the christian section, I thought some of the posters were non-lds. The iphone doesn't show the denomination display of the profile as I can see it now on the desktop. So I thought that a few of you here such as Needle, and snake and a few others were non-lds. I got confused, someone called their church church of christ. Didn't realize until later, talking to you, that most everyone here in this christian forum of the boards is LDS. 

 

[brotherofJared]

31 minutes ago, Vort said:

Serious question: I thought you were a quasi-Ivy League professor of something or other that would make you so knowledgeable about religious history and historic English scriptural translations that the answer to the above question would be so staggeringly obvious that you could answer it in your sleep. Why are you asking this?

Maybe she wants a Mormon point of view. 

[e v e]

8 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

I can only guess. Initially, I used to believe that spirit = ghost, but that isn't entirely true. They have the same substance, but a ghost lived in a mortal body once whereas a spirit hasn't. Whether or not it makes any difference as to how we refer to the Holy Ghost may not be important, but for theological purposes, the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Ghost and apparently, there are many other names we can use to mean Holy Ghost.

 

The book of Mormon.

That makes sense, that a ghost is how society refers to the spirit of someone who had passed away... such as in popular culture, when ghosts appear, these being of humans who died but who for some reason, wander around without a home. I am curious about the history of the term being used for His Spirit as I don't like that much, since it implies a disembodied being, and obviously Miss has an immortal gorgeous body, which I saw (even though she can be a presence to be sensed as spirit, or a pillar of fire, etc.)

Edited February 13, 2020 by e v e

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, e v e said:

I don't know what you mean by the symbol  =/=.

Not equal.

My statement was that LDS Christian beliefs are different than Evangelicals.  

4 minutes ago, e v e said:

It is very interesting the 4 you name for reasons I won't go into here. Because then we would have another thread if I replied as to what I understand about that...Plus it could be very very long-winded... and I'm  hesitant, because I thought this thread was sweet and innocent and the response was a bit different than I expected. I had been looking at this thread on my phone the first day or two, and since this was in the christian section, I thought some of the posters were non-lds. The iphone doesn't show the denomination display of the profile as I can see it now on the desktop. So I thought that a few of you here such as Needle, and snake and a few others were non-lds. I got confused, someone called their church church of christ. Didn't realize until later, talking to you, that most everyone here in this christian forum of the boards is LDS. 

 

The fact that there are 4 person being talked about here:

1) Heavenly Father.

2) Heavenly Mother.

3) Jesus Christ

4) The Holy Ghost.  

Is actually CRITICAL.  LDS Christians 100% agree that there's a Mother in Heaven.  0% agreement that Heavenly Mother and the Holy Spirit are the same person. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Jane_Doe