Vort

Joe Biden bravely and openly proclaims his own damnation.

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31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Unless Biden does something to keep those people engaged and voting Democrat, he'll have a hard time balancing out Trump's inroads into the minority block that has consistently voted 90% Democrat in addition to the non-Republican young Trumpers.  The Never Trumper wing of the Republican voting public is almost non-existent at this point.

I would have to agree with this.  Democrats are not excited about Biden (or Bernie).    

My (non scientific) prediction is that Trump will win and the Democratic party will go through a reformation and possibly become more centrist.  We'll see I guess.   

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On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 7:07 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  Colorado law allows unaffiliated voters (such as myself) to vote in either the Dem or Rep caucuses.  Imma vote for Bernie.  That way, America will have one of the most real choices for president in my life - a clear cut case between capitalism and socialism.

 

But...but...but...but...uh, er…what if SOCIALISM actually wins????!!!! :eek:

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On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2020 at 7:55 AM, NeuroTypical said:

1. That's the risk I'm taking, but I figure he does not. I have hope that a Trump vs. Sanders race would have people voting out of a winning economy first, and a growing awareness of the evils of socialism second.  

2. I'm more worried about Buttigeg.  For people who want a return to sanity, a quick visit to his wikipedia page almost sold me.  Plus, a Trump vs. Buttigeg race would have a ton of low-information useful-idiot 20-30-somethings both pushed away from Trump's odious meanness, and pulled towards the woke ability to vote for a gay guy.  Scary stuff.

1. You are probably right...but I would not risk it. Ever since the populace turned so quickly towards LGBTQ-as-race/ethnicity and against Judeo-Christian mores I became very risk-averse towards popular opinion.

2. Of course this is no longer an issue, but Buttigeg lost my respect when he attempted to goad Pence into a fight by saying that if VPOTUS had a problem with his sexuality he should take it up with God. Pence had gone out of his way to be civil and respectful to Buttigeg after his mayoral win. Buttigeg chose to make Pence the poster child of traditional mores and then attack. If he doesn't like me why should I vote for him?

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

If Sanders wins the nomination, then I disagree. The choice will be communist vs. not-a-communist. And at least in this, the early part of the 21st century, not-a-communist will still win out.

That wouldn't be the choice.  The communist wing of the Democrat party is not that big - as evidenced by the one-day turn-around of the flailing Biden campaign.  Sanders taking the nom would quickly turn into a Trump vs Not-Trump because the Dems know they can't sell communism and will tone down that talking point regardless of how much Trump will goad them into it.

Edited by anatess2

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25 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

That wouldn't be the choice.  The communist wing of the Democrat party is not that big - as evidenced by the one-day turn-around of the flailing Biden campaign.  Sanders taking the nom would quickly turn into a Trump vs Not-Trump because the Dems know they can't sell communism and will tone down that talking point regardless of how much Trump will goad them into it.

The problem is moving the Bernie supporters over to Biden...  The parties are close to being equally balanced.  So if one side is being fractured compared to the other they can't really expect to win.

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4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The problem is moving the Bernie supporters over to Biden...  The parties are close to being equally balanced.  So if one side is being fractured compared to the other they can't really expect to win.

The only thing that I can think of that will work is the "he's not Trump" angle.  A lot of Bernie supporters are not really socialists - they just think they are.  What they really stand for is Redistributionists.  So a Biden campaign can jump on this angle with their "Trump is a Billionaire who Doesn't Pay Taxes" selling point.

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19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The only thing that I can think of that will work is the "he's not Trump" angle.  A lot of Bernie supporters are not really socialists - they just think they are.  What they really stand for is Redistributionists.  So a Biden campaign can jump on this angle with their "Trump is a Billionaire who Doesn't Pay Taxes" selling point.

Possible...  But they have to get Sanders first... And right now Sanders is painting Biden and company as "The Man" the "Establishment" which makes it sound like he is going to fight to the bitter end... which does not bode well for the Dems unifying

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3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Possible...  But they have to get Sanders first... And right now Sanders is painting Biden and company as "The Man" the "Establishment" which makes it sound like he is going to fight to the bitter end... which does not bode well for the Dems unifying

Yeah.  That was quite cringy when Bloomberg endorsed Biden when it was only a day or two ago that he painted Biden as a non-viable candidate.  This could be another 2016 where Sanders kowtowed to Hillary, alienating a lot of his die-hard fans.  I don't know if they'll go for another one of those "let's support the establishment" shticks.  Best for Sanders to just quietly go to the background if he loses to Biden like how Obama is currently being quiet.  But hey, Sanders still has a path to win so don't count him out yet.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

This could be another 2016 where Sanders kowtowed to Hillary, alienating a lot of his die-hard fans.

Best possible outcome, IMO.  Extreme left socialists, communists, and other folks who would seek to kill or change our founding principles, need to be alienated for as much of their political life as possible.  Feeling disenfranchised, disillusioned, deprived.  Without a candidate for which they can vote.  That's one way to keep our country from following Rome into oblivion.  

If we can draw the line this cycle, at just pointing out how much certain elements on the left hate American greatness, that's a win.

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1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Best possible outcome, IMO.  Extreme left socialists, communists, and other folks who would seek to kill or change our founding principles, need to be alienated for as much of their political life as possible.  Feeling disenfranchised, disillusioned, deprived.  Without a candidate for which they can vote.  That's one way to keep our country from following Rome into oblivion.  

If we can draw the line this cycle, at just pointing out how much certain elements on the left hate American greatness, that's a win.

They already got the Unis and the Entertainment Industry.  You can't disenfranchise from political arena without doing something about the culture.  You'll only end up with a Revolution - as is happening in certain cities like Portland.

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18 minutes ago, bytebear said:

I feel like I am reliving Reagan vs Mondale.

Neither the Republican incumbent nor the likely Democrat challenger compares well with his respective counterpart. But yes, in some ways this does seem like 1984 all over again. Of course, I spent the first half of that year in Italy, so what do I know?

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Guest MormonGator
7 hours ago, Vort said:

in some ways this does seem like 1984 all over again

It won't be anything like that. Reagan won 49 states. Trump will not. 

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On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 10:53 AM, NeuroTypical said:

We'll see how he fares in the debates.  His Bidenisms are getting dumber as time goes on.  Armchair diagnoses of early onset alzheimers.  Introducing his sister as his wife, flubbing names and places and dates.  When Bush I ran, everyone made dang sure we knew serious and experienced Dick Cheney was Veep, and would handle all the hard thinking.  "The most powerful VP in history", they called him.  For Biden to have a chance, they'll need something similar to reassure left voters that the stuttering old guy falling asleep in that chair, has someone running America in the background. 

Wait a second...when you say Bush I, you mean Bush Sr. as in George Bush the one that was President from 1989-1992, or George H. W. Bush?

I am pretty certain Dan Quayle was his Vice President and Dick Cheney was Vice President under Bush II, or George W. Bush who was President from 2001-2008.

I must have misunderstood which President Bush you were referring to, or you meant to say Bush II instead...right?

If Biden wins the nomination, I'd probably bring up Trump's impeachment if I were the Republicans. 

Why?

Because many of those who don't like Trump also have a problem with that impeachment.  If it was strong enough to impeach Trump, it appears to me that Biden was engaged in the same type of quid quo pro in Ukraine at an earlier date. 

I didn't have a problem with Biden doing that (as many politicians do such things), but if it's a big enough thing for the democrats to try to nail Trump with, it should be something that equally applies to them.

It wouldn't affect Democrats, but I think that would have a HUGE affect with the independent voters (and much as many despise the independents, in my opinion, they are the ones who really determine which way the election goes).

It may cut both ways, but Trump already went through his trial...Biden hasn't really been touched yet.  I think that what the Democrats felt was a triumph could actually turn out to be an Achilles heel if the Republicans use it in the right way against Biden (if he even get's the nomination).

Not sure that would win or lose for them, but I don't think they actually did themselves any favors on this.  As I said, I could have cared less about what Biden did...but if the Democrats really felt it was an impeachable offense, in my opinion, Biden is just as guilty as Trump is/was.

PS: I think Dick Cheney was actually Secretary of Defense under Bush I.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Wait a second...when you say Bush I, you mean Bush Sr. as in George Bush the one that was President from 1989-1992, or George H. W. Bush?

PS: I think Dick Cheney was actually Secretary of Defense under Bush I.

Sorry for the confusion, I try to have a better-than-average long term memory about politics, but my memory of the Bushes and their various wars are a bit fuzzy.    With the aid of Wikipedia: I remember the Bush-who-was-Pres-when-the-towers-fell, and how all eyes were on Sec of Defense Cheney.  I remember supporters talking about how good Cheney was, and critics talking about how Cheney was on the job while Bush was napping with his thumb in his mouth, too dumb to open his own bag of potato chips.  Then a repeat of the same notions with the 2nd Bush and Cheney/Rumsfeld.    The overall notion is that yes, Biden can still be accepted as president, if he has a strong running mate known for a good brain.  Because Biden doesn't look like he has either. 

 

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If Biden wins the nomination, I'd probably bring up Trump's impeachment if I were the Republicans. 

Oh yeah, I totally agree.  You can tell how well the impeachment worked for the Dems, by looking at Google news story titles and dates:

image.png.1d1ef356ac1f0ffd58fe526d85d3eca3.png

 

Someone was absolutely hurt politically by the impeachment, and it wasn't Trump.   I'm proud of my little meme I made here, and I expect to post it a dozen more times before November.

BidenBurisma.thumb.png.e4f02087bb7d70528f5ec9e5312db8a7.png

Edited by NeuroTypical

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On 3/6/2020 at 9:59 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Wait a second...when you say Bush I, you mean Bush Sr. as in George Bush the one that was President from 1989-1992, or George H. W. Bush?

I am pretty certain Dan Quayle was his Vice President and Dick Cheney was Vice President under Bush II, or George W. Bush who was President from 2001-2008.

I must have misunderstood which President Bush you were referring to, or you meant to say Bush II instead...right?

If Biden wins the nomination, I'd probably bring up Trump's impeachment if I were the Republicans. 

Why?

Because many of those who don't like Trump also have a problem with that impeachment.  If it was strong enough to impeach Trump, it appears to me that Biden was engaged in the same type of quid quo pro in Ukraine at an earlier date. 

I didn't have a problem with Biden doing that (as many politicians do such things), but if it's a big enough thing for the democrats to try to nail Trump with, it should be something that equally applies to them.

It wouldn't affect Democrats, but I think that would have a HUGE affect with the independent voters (and much as many despise the independents, in my opinion, they are the ones who really determine which way the election goes).

It may cut both ways, but Trump already went through his trial...Biden hasn't really been touched yet.  I think that what the Democrats felt was a triumph could actually turn out to be an Achilles heel if the Republicans use it in the right way against Biden (if he even get's the nomination).

Not sure that would win or lose for them, but I don't think they actually did themselves any favors on this.  As I said, I could have cared less about what Biden did...but if the Democrats really felt it was an impeachable offense, in my opinion, Biden is just as guilty as Trump is/was.

PS: I think Dick Cheney was actually Secretary of Defense under Bush I.

Without declaring the wrongs or rights of either side, surely it's a significant difference that Trump's dealings with Ukraine were done while he was President and Biden's dealings happened when he was not the President?  Being Vice President is not quite the same as being President.

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7 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Without declaring the wrongs or rights of either side, surely it's a significant difference that Trump's dealings with Ukraine were done while he was President and Biden's dealings happened when he was not the President?  Being Vice President is not quite the same as being President.

No, actually, it's pretty much the same thing. You could argue that it's more grave when a sitting president does so than a mere vice president, but that is an argument of relative harm, not of kind. The crime is equal.

The real difference proclaimed by the Democraps is that Trump sought specifically to tamper in a presidential election by requesting an investigation of a potential political opponent, while Biden's crime was only graft, a mere trifle that didn't hurt a living soul.

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20 hours ago, Vort said:

No, actually, it's pretty much the same thing. You could argue that it's more grave when a sitting president does so than a mere vice president, but that is an argument of relative harm, not of kind. The crime is equal.

The real difference proclaimed by the Democraps is that Trump sought specifically to tamper in a presidential election by requesting an investigation of a potential political opponent, while Biden's crime was only graft, a mere trifle that didn't hurt a living soul.

Except... requesting an investigation into corruption, political opponent or otherwise (remember, Biden did not declare his candidacy until AFTER the Ukraine talks started), is LEGAL.  Graft, on the other hand, is not.

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34 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Except... requesting an investigation into corruption, political opponent or otherwise (remember, Biden did not declare his candidacy until AFTER the Ukraine talks started), is LEGAL.  Graft, on the other hand, is not.

I do not disagree. I am simply giving the Democrap line as honestly as I can.

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