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Scott

Rated R movies

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

1. I attribute to you only what you have said and the immediate implications of those things.

I never implicated I watched ANY pornography or ANY R-rated films AND quoted what general authorities have advised us.  I find it amazing that on an LDS forums and from one such as you who aggressively attacks those who say anything questioning are actively anti against such statements from the church.

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2. I thought my point was easily recognized. Which parts of what I wrote are you having trouble deciphering?

the parts where you try to infer that anyone needs to watch dirty movies or anything else to determine whether they are bad or not.  The parts where you apparently deny that the spirit can help us avoid such things and instead one needs to default to watching them instead, both of which you have seemed to state.

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3. This is neither a personal attack nor am I playing a devil's advocate.

Then why are you inferring I have or need to watch things I never have watched.  Not only that, but then you agree with a fare more obtuse statement similar later on, but disagree with anything I say that has roots from General Authorities, their advice to those in other nations, and anything else. This thread is about the preponderance of R-rated movies of which the US has a standard, but which does not really apply to other nations as they do NOT use that standard.

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I suppose nothing of the sort. Who cares that no one else in the world uses an R rating? What does that have to do with anything? How is that in any possible way germane to the topic?

Because my point applies to anyone who is trying to figure out what media to watch rather than just US audiences.  I stated what I do and you immediately attacked by suggesting that we need to watch pornographic material...which is ridiculous and insane.

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If a radio program or a TV show or a book comes with a ready-made tag saying, "Salacious material! Brutal gorefest! Filthy and blasphemous expressions throughout!", then I do not consume it. Or if I do, I am not surprised when I find myself bathing in filth, and I do not seek to justify myself by saying stupid things like, "How could I have known? Not everything that's labeled as unfit for human consumption is really unfit for human consumption!"

Of course, this is utterly irrelevant. It's what we call a "red herring", designed to lead away from the central point under discussion.

But that's WHAT YOU INFERRED and actually basically point blank stated in your application saying one had to watch pornography to determine whether it was or was not.  When I stated it was not something required you defended that position!

However, there are MANY MORE materials that I KNOW people watch that I would consider pornographic in today's society.  Whether one chooses to watch such material or not is up to them.

However, when I, who normally may not even watch PG-13 and rarely watch many modern movies rated higher than G is attacked and someone starts saying I would have to watch R-rated movies or worse just to use the judgment system I adhere to in determining what I watch in the US and abroad...why you decided you needed to do that, especially if you are not playing a devil's advocate or have a gross misunderstanding of what the statements have been to those in other nations at times on the media to consume in regards to movies, music and other entertainment (and my first post basically is a summation, at one point closely to the wording) is pretty close to a personal attack right there.

I haven't made alarm about it until you persistently tried to imply things about my character and anyone else who tries to follow the advice of the church on these matters who may not necessarily be in the US, but which I feel is good advice even for THOSE IN the US.  It's not just movies, it's all entertainment.

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If you honestly got this from what I wrote, then I have overestimated your ability to interpret expository writing.

For you to draw that inference from what I wrote demonstrates either a complete inability to assess the meaning of a written passage or an utter refusal to honestly acknowledge what was written, instead preferring to assign one's own prejudices to the meaning. Which of those two are we dealing with here?

Do you honestly (note the word, JohnsonJones) believe that I said something different?

I have implied nothing of the sort. Is this dishonesty or just stupidity, JohnsonJones?

Please explain carefully what this has to do with anything I wrote.

This actually IS a personal attack on me. 

It's ironic, sometimes I feel there are two rankings in the forums.  One for those who are proclaimed conservatives such as yourself, and those who are not such as I.  Ironically in this situation I feel my stand on the position in regards to what I actually watch is actually far more conservative than even most of those who are members of the Church, especially in regards to movies (of which I am aware I am an anomaly in that most movies I find far too perverse to watch in regards to morality, but most members do not feel that way). 

That you then attack my morals and try to tear them down and imply that I watch things that are very much against what I would or even want to is a pretty rabid attack. Sure, it's a very conservative Mormon approach to things, but I haven't had attacks like these except from those who are anti-Mormon and normally it's against more basic doctrines than avoiding media and material based upon content (and there are a LOT of entertainment areas which do not have the ratings in the US, even though movies may, such as books, music, and other arenas of media) as has been advised by General Authorities in conferences in the past.

I am not surprised to have to defend such Mormon teachings, but I am surprised that it has gone so long with such pervasivness and then you simply are given free ranges to personally attack my intelligence and morality.

Much of what you have done recently in regards to some of my posts seems driven more out of dislike and anger rather than rational thought or discussion at times.  It does not matter if the material comes from the Church or not, at times you simply take on the attack. 

Edited by JohnsonJones

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58 minutes ago, Scott said:

When Schindler's List came out though, the prophet (I believe it was Benson) actually came out and said that this movie was OK to watch because of the educational value.    As far as I know, this has been the only rated R movie where a prophet has actually come out and said that is OK to watch (though not exactly encouraged).

I would be interested to see a source for this.

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6 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

[...]

What say ye?

1. This is hopeless. JohnsonJones will not even understand your points, much less concede them (or even honestly and intelligently discuss them), no matter what you say. Don't waste your time answering.

2. JohnsonJones has some great points! He's really speaking truth to power! You have to answer his accusations, or else you're conceding his brilliant arguments!

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11 minutes ago, Vort said:

What say ye?

1. This is hopeless. JohnsonJones will not even understand your points, much less concede them (or even honestly and intelligently discuss them), no matter what you say. Don't waste your time answering.

2. JohnsonJones has some great points! He's really speaking truth to power! You have to answer his accusations, or else you're conceding his brilliant arguments!

What points have I ignored or misunderstood.  My points were...as portrayed to us by the General authorities which you apparently disagreed with were...

1. One can determine whether to watch a movie or not (and it is not just movies, but any form of media) based upon it's own merits rather than a rating. 

These merits one would be looking at to see if they wish to consume media would be...

a.  Is it uplifting

b.  Is it spiritual or helps build up the spirit and it's guidance

c.  Does it have offensive themes or appear to, if so, avoid it.

In regards to those my personal stances with that guidance is...

2.  Even PG movies may have those which are not uplifting, builds the spirit, or may have offensive themes.

3.  I see a LOT of modern movies which would drive the spirit away, including many that people see as innocuous.  I find many of the movies that are not even Rated-R (or PG15) replusive.  I also feel MOST movies coming out are too violent, have too much immorality and too much language. 

 

You responded with

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Exactly how I feel about pornography. We need to judge these things individually. Consider each photograph on its own merits rather than just slap a label on it and ignore it wholesale. Ah, how I pity the ignorant fools who cut themselves off from a whole world of creative wonder because of their childish, irrational fear of the label "pornography"!

This is also how I feel about eating wild mushrooms. I'm sick to death of the broad classifications of "dangerous" and "poisonous" and "don't eat this!" and other such hype. I think we should eat each mushroom individually, without reference to any other mushrooms, and then decide for ourselves whether it's good.

With a clip of Tweedledee and Tweedledum in the Disney Alice in Wonderland film regarding logic.  The first paragraph taken by itself could have been seen as sarcasm, but when you include the mushrooms and needing to eat them that seems to solidify your mocking of the General Authorities counsel in regards to what media we should consume.

Even more so, you then double down and try continuously imply that this is what I am pushing...when in fact I never said such a thing and in fact, if one actually followed the advice they would probably be FARTHER from watching any of that stuff.  Pornography doesn't even enter the picture and if one actually used logic would automatically realize that it violates the uplifting and building the spirit guidelines by the most obvious means.  Why even bring something so dross and gross up?

If this is not your point, then what points exactly were you trying to make, beyond the thing that you insult my intelligence and ability to read.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

When Schindler's List came out though, the prophet (I believe it was Benson) actually came out and said that this movie was OK to watch because of the educational value.

25 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I would be interested to see a source for this.

I found a source*.

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President Ezra Taft Benson described several ways Satan tries to get pornography into our minds:

“Consider carefully the words of the prophet Alma to his errant son, Corianton, ‘Forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes’ (Alma 39:9).
“‘The lusts of your eyes.’ In our day, what does that expression mean?
“Movies, television programs, and video recordings that are both suggestive and lewd.
“Magazines and books that are obscene and pornographic.
“We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards. Don’t see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive, or pornographic. Don’t listen to music that is degrading” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1986, 58; or Ensign, May 1986, 45

*by source, I mean something that totally tells us not to see R-rated movies.

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32 minutes ago, mordorbund said:
1 hour ago, Scott said:

When Schindler's List came out though, the prophet (I believe it was Benson) actually came out and said that this movie was OK to watch because of the educational value.    As far as I know, this has been the only rated R movie where a prophet has actually come out and said that is OK to watch (though not exactly encouraged).

I would be interested to see a source for this.

I agree. In fact, I would go a step farther and say that, until I see a credible source for this claim, I disbelieve it.

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23 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I would be interested to see a source for this.

I was there when it happened.   It was a big thing at the time.  I was in college in Utah and a lot of colleges, even in Utah, were making Schinder's List required viewing.   Most students in the Utah colleges were LDS, so there were debates and whether or not students should see it.   Then in Institute there was an announcement read by the teachers with a statement from the prophet saying that it was OK to see.

It actually aired on the Church owned TV station, KSL.  Also, the producer of the movie was LDS.

I do not know where to find any sources on the prophets words, but this shouldn't be surprising since the internet didn't exist at the time.   I can't find anything in the search under "Schindler's List" on our current Church website.

I can find,however, news stories from the Church owned newspaper saying that the Church owned TV station would show the film.   See here:

https://www.deseret.com/1997/2/20/19296229/ksl-tv-acts-responsibly-on-schindler-s-list

It was a big thing at the time.

 

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6 minutes ago, Scott said:

this shouldn't be surprising since the internet didn't exist at the time.

The internet most certainly did exist in 1997. Some of us were quite active on it, even years before that.

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6 minutes ago, Scott said:

I was there when it happened.   It was a big thing at the time.  I was in college in Utah and a lot of colleges, even in Utah, were making Schinder's List required viewing.   Most students in the Utah colleges were LDS, so there were debates and whether or not students should see it.   Then in Institute there was an announcement read by the teachers with a statement from the prophet saying that it was OK to see.

It actually aired on the Church owned TV station, KSL.  Also, the producer of the movie was LDS.

I do not know where to find any sources on the prophets words, but this shouldn't be surprising since the internet didn't exist at the time.   I can't find anything in the search under "Schindler's List" on our current Church website.

I can find,however, news stories from the Church owned newspaper saying that the Church owned TV station would show the film.   See here:

https://www.deseret.com/1997/2/20/19296229/ksl-tv-acts-responsibly-on-schindler-s-list

It was a big thing at the time.

 

It probably wouldn’t have been Benson, who was very ill when Schindler’s List came out—I think it came out in 1993, and Benson didn’t speak publicly after 1991.

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1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It probably wouldn’t have been Benson, who was very ill when Schindler’s List came out—I think it came out in 1993, and Benson didn’t speak publicly after 1991.

February of 94, according to Google. 

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20 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It probably wouldn’t have been Benson, who was very ill when Schindler’s List came out—I think it came out in 1993, and Benson didn’t speak publicly after 1991.

Yes, you are correct.   I believe it was Hinkley.    Thanks for pointing that out.

Unfortunately, there is only one link on the Church website pertaining to Schinder's List and it comes up blank:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?lang=eng&query=schinder's list&highlight=true&page=1

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8 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes, you are correct.   I believe it was Hinkley.    Thanks for pointing that out.

Unfortunately, there is only one link on the Church website pertaining to Schinder's List and it comes up blank:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?lang=eng&query=schinder's list&highlight=true&page=1

"Schindler's List", with the quotation marks, produces the same result. Without the quotation marks, it produces many more hits, but they're irrelevant.

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21 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

The problem with this column is that it is uncharacteristically dishonest. Card is typically a stickler for honesty in the details, but in this column he wholeheartedly and unapologetically misrepresents things. The prophetic advice was not, in fact, taken out of context. Card is telling an untruth in saying that it was.

If Card wants to watch R-rated movies, he has my permission. If he wants to justify himself, that's okay with me. If he wants to pretend that watching some R-rated movies will aid us in our quest for exaltation, I will roll my eyes and perhaps vocally disagree, but that's it. But when he wants to claim that the prophets never said what they very clearly DID say, or when he wants to hand-wave away the plain meaning of their words and claim that they really meant something else, something that justifies his desire to watch R-rated movies, then I will stand up and proclaim that he is telling a blatant untruth. Which is what I'm doing now.

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4 minutes ago, Vort said:

The problem with this column is that it is uncharacteristically dishonest. Card is typically a stickler for honesty in the details, but in this column he wholeheartedly and unapologetically misrepresents things. The prophetic advice was not, in fact, taken out of context. Card is telling an untruth in saying that it was.

If Card wants to watch R-rated movies, he has my permission. If he wants to justify himself, that's okay with me. If he wants to pretend that watching some R-rated movies will aid us in our quest for exaltation, I will roll my eyes and perhaps vocally disagree, but that's it. But when he wants to claim that the prophets never said what they very clearly DID say, or when he wants to hand-wave away the plain meaning of their words and claim that they really meant something else, something that justifies his desire to watch R-rated movies, then I will stand up and proclaim that he is telling a blatant untruth. Which is what I'm doing now.

Card is/was very vocal about his support for traditional marriage. I'm surprised he feels this way. 

Edited by MormonGator

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16 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Schindler's List", with the quotation marks, produces the same result. Without the quotation marks, it produces many more hits, but they're irrelevant.

A search of BYU forum/devotional speeches yields one passing reference, but not by a GA:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/sandra-rogers/stones-serpents-swords-seeds-tears/

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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"We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards. Don't see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive, or pornographic. Don't listen to music that is degrading" (Ensign, May 1986, p 43).

 

And no playing Uno either.  Or SkipBo.  Or Go Fish or Old Maid or Crazy 8's or any other card-based staple of family game night.

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I hear that card playing is becoming very, very popular, and that the Church must be in favor of card playing because the Church authorities never say anything against it. From the time I was a child and read the Juvenile Instructor, published for the benefit of the people, I have read nothing except condemnation of card-playing and the wasting of your time in doing something that brings no good, bodily, intellectually, or in any way, and sometimes leads your children to become gamblers, because they become expert card-players. The Church as a Church requests its members not to play cards. I hope you understand me, and I want you to know that I am speaking for the Church when I ask the people to let cards alone.  (Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, April 1926, 10)

 

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We should not use playing cards because the prophets of God have counseled against it. That in itself should be sufficient reason to leave them alone. There are, however, other reasons we could consider. The greatest loss of power that we have in this world is the loss that results from the failure of individuals to reach their potential. There are many reasons for this, but perhaps one of the most important is failure to use time effectively.  ("What about using playing cards?", Questions and Answers, New Era, September 1974)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

The problem with this column is that it is uncharacteristically dishonest. Card is typically a stickler for honesty in the details, but in this column he wholeheartedly and unapologetically misrepresents things. The prophetic advice was not, in fact, taken out of context. Card is telling an untruth in saying that it was.

Card might be right(?) about only one prophet counseling against rated R movies, but there have definitely been a lot of statements from Church leaders counseling against them.

If you plug "rated R" into the church website, here are some random ones that come up:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2001/04/priesthood-power?lang=eng

Oh, brethren, please don’t sell your precious priesthood birthright for a mess of X- or R-rated pottage. Remember, the sand castles we build on the beaches of mortality, no matter how elaborate, will eventually be washed away by the tide. Only purity of hand, heart, and mind will allow us to tap into the ultimate power of the priesthood to truly bless others and eventually be able to build eternal mansions more beautiful and lasting than we can presently imagine.--John H. Groberg Of the First Quorum of the Seventy; Priesthood Session,;General Conference April 2001.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1998/01/i-resolve?lang=eng

In addition to making a resolution that we will read only the best in print, it would be very beneficial if now we resolved not to watch even one R-rated or NC-17 movie, or television shows with questionable content.--Elder Joe J. Christensenof the Presidency of the Seventy; New Era January 1998

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1973/01/live-above-the-law-to-be-free?lang=eng

Do not attend R- or X-rated movies, and avoid drive-ins.--President Hartman Rector, Jr. of the First Council of the Seventy; Ensign; January 1973

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1985/06/be-thou-an-example-of-the-believers?lang=eng

If she wanted to go out with a young man, she would respond to his invitation on condition there would be no smoking, drinking, R- or X-rated movies, nor immorality of any kind.--Elder Robert L. Backman of the First Quorum of the Seventy; New Era; June 1985.


So it was definitely more than President Benson who made statements against rated R movies.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

I agree. In fact, I would go a step farther and say that, until I see a credible source for this claim, I disbelieve it.

Other than passing references mentioned by others in this thread and the fact that it was shown on the Church owned TV station, I have been unable to find any official source.   It did happen though and I remember it happening.   If we were not told that it was OK, I wouldn't have seen it.  It was a big deal at the college.

Perhaps it wasn't realistic enough to make a realistic film displaying the horrors of the holocaust with a PG rating; I don't know.

I haven't seen it since then, but from what I remember the violence and nudity weren't glorifying violence or promiscuity, but were protrayed in a heartbreaking manner.  That said, I am not advocating that anyone go out and see it.    It isn't a movie that you go see to have fun or as an activity with friends.  I did not feel evil while watching it, but it was distrubing to see what happened to the Jews during that time period.   

In college, I was required to see another rated R movie.   It was Black Robe and the US History teacher required us to watch it (parts of it were on the test).  It was shown in class.   That one did bother me and left me feeling dirty after seeing it.   It was almost enough to make me transfer to BYU.

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Just now, Scott said:

It did happen though and I remember it happening.   If we were not told that it was OK, I wouldn't have seen it.  It was a big deal at the college.

I don't doubt your truthfulness. I simply doubt your accuracy. I disbelieve that our prophets, then or now, would counsel anyone to see an R-rated movie.

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46 minutes ago, Scott said:

it wasn't realistic enough to make a realistic film displaying the horrors of the holocaust with a PG rating

The Holocaust wasn't G-rated. What happened at that time in history was abhorrent and horrific beyond words and comprehension. 

I'm not concerned about whatever you (generic!) choose to watch. That's your (again, generic) call, and in your own home, you make your own rules. 

What I'm deeply concered about is if you (generic, generic, generic) deny or downplay the horrors of war, famine, etc just because you've sheltered yourself from reality. 

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The Holocaust wasn't G-rated. What happened at that time in history was abhorrent and horrific beyond words and comprehension. 

I'm not concerned about whatever you (generic!) choose to watch. That's your (again, generic) call, and in your own home, you make your own rules. 

What I'm deeply concered about is if you (generic, generic, generic) deny or downplay the horrors of war, famine, etc just because you've sheltered yourself from reality. 

MG, there's a difference between denial and censoring. I don't deny anything, but I strictly censor what I and my children take in. I cannot imagine any loving parent who does not.

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