Tithing on children paying board for living expenses


rustyoz
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On 3/3/2020 at 6:23 PM, rustyoz said:

So my wife has her adult son living with us, eating food, using water, using electricity, using gas, using the washing machine etc etc etc.  For this he pays $50 per week.  My wife then puts $5 into the bank to cover tithing on the $50 paid by her son.  I cant seem to help her understand that this is not an increase in our income, it is simply her son paying for living expenses that we have already spent on food, water, gas, electricity etc etc etc.  After all, I would like to see an adult pay less than $50 for everything he uses.  Any idea on how to explain it.  I do have a finance/accounting background but for some reason she still argues the point.

Maybe we ought to think of deducting expenses for the cost of stuff needed to provide for our children?  It is just and the right thing to do to deduct for children from our income tax.  I have heard of members of the Church filling for a tithing refund.

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is just and the right thing to do to deduct for children from our income tax.

I'm very dang hesitant to think about anything in our tax code as "just and right".  But the child deduction probably comes close.  The state encourages it's citizens to produce more citizens and care for it's citizenlets, by granting a tax incentive.

Favorable tax rates for married-filing-jointly would be another one that comes close.  The state prefers it's citizens to form family units, and structures it's tax rates to be favorable to those who do.

Something else - you can get married at the tax desk.  If you and your shack up honey both go to, say, H&R block, they'll often give you three numbers:  Single for him, Single for her, Joint for both.  Almost always, joint is less than two people filing single.  Assuming the folks are living together and intend to stay in their relationship, it's cheaper (and legal) to file jointly right there.  That makes you married in the eyes of the state, and this couple now are forced to file jointly until they go through a legal separation or divorce.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Hi and welcome rustyoz!

 

First of all I feel inspired to give a reminder that tithing is ten percent of one's annual income. How we define income is up to the individual, and even though we can give our personal insights, we are not allowed to instruct others how tithing should be defined beyond this.

Now, the questions is, to whom do those money belong to in the first place? This is a really important question, because it's the owner of the money who decides by The Spirit of The Lord what should be defined as income. If I understand this correctly (and let me know if I'm wrong), it's the son who's the owner of the money in the first place. If that's the case, he should prayerfully decide himself whether he considers the money as income or not.

Hope that this comment will help in any way ;) 

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2 hours ago, Nordic saint said:

How we define income is up to the individual,

I am not sure that I believe this - it is true that we are all given Agency to determine if, how and why we keep the Laws and covenants of G-d.  Obviously how we view the Law and covenants are an exercise of Agency and directly have bearing on our spiritual development.  The promise is that as we learn to engage in the laws and covenants of G-d as a spiritual investment rather than an obligation or as I was taught by my parents - we can be a minimum or maximum participant and we can think of such as an obligation or a joy of liberation.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:
5 hours ago, Nordic saint said:

How we define income is up to the individual,

I am not sure that I believe this

I think I have to agree with @Traveler here. Saying that how we define income (the actual word is "increase") is up to the individual is tantamount to saying that whatever amount we pay as a tithing is correct—that is, is acceptable to the Lord—merely because that's how much we've decided to pay. Though some Saints find this Universalist reasoning compelling, I do not. As a friend of mine once put it, "I don't really care what your opinion is or what my opinion is. I want to know what God's opinion is."

This is where I think the trite expression that so many object to, "Net tithing, net blessings; gross tithing, gross blessings", shows some real underlying wisdom. Contrary to popular opinion, we (those of us who have received our temple endowment) ARE under the law of consecration, today, right now. We have covenanted to consecrate everything, and God expects us to do so at this very moment. Part of that consecration is paying an honest tithing. Our bishops today are instructed basically (for the most part) to take our word for it if we declare ourselves full tithe payers. But that doesn't mean God recognizes a dishonest tithe as okey-dokey. God sees the heart. Are we being honest? Are we looking for deductions and loopholes, or are we consecrating ourselves to the kingdom?

You can deceive men, even your bishop. You cannot deceive God. Pay an honest tithe.

(Please note that I'm not attributing any of the above sentiments to @Nordic saint. I'm just extrapolating from what he wrote to what I think is a reasonable conclusion, and then disagreeing with that.)

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20 hours ago, rustyoz said:

In Australia we can claim 100% of our tithing and fast offering on our tax return

I need to correct this statement

As of a few years ago, after a review of the church's charitable status by the Australian Taxation Office, Australians can now claim 100% of their fast offering and 75% of their tithing on their tax return. My understanding is that the reduction from 100% of tithing to 75% reflects the Tax Office's view that some of the church's tithing expenditure is not used strictly for charitable purposes. 

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On 3/4/2020 at 8:54 PM, rustyoz said:

.The whole point of the post, wasn't about the 5 dollars. The money was irrelevant. I understand completely the principle of tithing which isn't about money, it's about faith. The point of the post was about whether or not tithing should be paid on money received which is technically a reimbursement of expenses. It's no different than if someone had·$20 petrol in their shed and you get the petrol from them and give them $20. They wouldn't pay tithing on the 20 because they we're just recovering what was already paid.

@rustyoz I'm on your side, but you have bigger fish to fry. Namely the free loading adult sharing your home with you. 

 

Decide where you want to plant your flag pole. Which castle do you want to defend? the $5/week. which adds up by the way for those who poo-poo it. That's $260/year that the OP doesn't get to see. Or the Freeloader who you should kick out. You net savings will be much bigger with the freeloader gone. 

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The amount was changed back a couple of years ago to 100% of tithing is deductable. The amount on the statement from the church is the amount that can be a legal deduction. When the amount was 75%, the amount on the EOY statement was 75% of what you had paid. It is now back up to 100% of what you paid and is reflected by showing the full amount.

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7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I need to correct this statement

As of a few years ago, after a review of the church's charitable status by the Australian Taxation Office, Australians can now claim 100% of their fast offering and 75% of their tithing on their tax return. My understanding is that the reduction from 100% of tithing to 75% reflects the Tax Office's view that some of the church's tithing expenditure is not used strictly for charitable purposes. 

The amount was changed back a couple of years ago to 100% of tithing is deductable. The amount on the statement from the church is the amount that can be a legal deduction. When the amount was 75%, the amount on the EOY statement was 75% of what you had paid. It is now back up to 100% of what you paid and is reflected by showing the full amount.

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18 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure that I believe this - it is true that we are all given Agency to determine if, how and why we keep the Laws and covenants of G-d.  Obviously how we view the Law and covenants are an exercise of Agency and directly have bearing on our spiritual development.  The promise is that as we learn to engage in the laws and covenants of G-d as a spiritual investment rather than an obligation or as I was taught by my parents - we can be a minimum or maximum participant and we can think of such as an obligation or a joy of liberation.

 

The Traveler

 

16 hours ago, Vort said:

I think I have to agree with @Traveler here. Saying that how we define income (the actual word is "increase") is up to the individual is tantamount to saying that whatever amount we pay as a tithing is correct—that is, is acceptable to the Lord—merely because that's how much we've decided to pay. Though some Saints find this Universalist reasoning compelling, I do not. As a friend of mine once put it, "I don't really care what your opinion is or what my opinion is. I want to know what God's opinion is."

This is where I think the trite expression that so many object to, "Net tithing, net blessings; gross tithing, gross blessings", shows some real underlying wisdom. Contrary to popular opinion, we (those of us who have received our temple endowment) ARE under the law of consecration, today, right now. We have covenanted to consecrate everything, and God expects us to do so at this very moment. Part of that consecration is paying an honest tithing. Our bishops today are instructed basically (for the most part) to take our word for it if we declare ourselves full tithe payers. But that doesn't mean God recognizes a dishonest tithe as okey-dokey. God sees the heart. Are we being honest? Are we looking for deductions and loopholes, or are we consecrating ourselves to the kingdom?

You can deceive men, even your bishop. You cannot deceive God. Pay an honest tithe.

(Please note that I'm not attributing any of the above sentiments to @Nordic saint. I'm just extrapolating from what he wrote to what I think is a reasonable conclusion, and then disagreeing with that.)

 

Well, the only thing I can do in this case is to quote the brethren's official statements ;)  This is from the first presidency letter from 1070:

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

 

This goes hand in hand with what Robert D. Hales quoted from Handbook 1 in his talk "The divine law of tithing":

"The First Presidency has written what the law of tithing is for us today: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.” (First Presidency letter, 19 March 1970.)"

 

The conclusions:

  • Members are entitled to make their own decision as to what they think they owe the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.
  • No one is justified in making any other statement than the one in the first quote

 

These statements are the newest ones and been repeated ever since. I think though the misunderstanding happened by assuming that I didn't take God into the picture. However, I did say that we should do it by The Spirit of The Lord. In other words, it doesn't mean that whatever we pay in tithing is honest, it means that that it's between you and The Lord with no lifted finger from others. No mortal has the right to say that I have to add $10 extra in tithing to make it right, whether it should be gross or net or what money on my bank account constitutes my income :) I pesonally think it is really wise how we should let any judgement of our tithing come from God and not man since we mortals tend to become almost like devils when it's about money, especially other people's money

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On 3/9/2020 at 5:34 PM, NeuroTypical said:

That makes you married in the eyes of the state, and this couple now are forced to file jointly until they go through a legal separation or divorce.

I don't think they have to file jointly after filing jointly the first time.  My husband and I filed jointly for a few years in our marriage but are now filing separately.  We didn't get divorced nor legally separated.  It was just cheaper for us to file separately.  What we can't do, though, is amend our separately filed tax returns to a joint return and vice versa.

But this has no bearing on tithing.  Taxation is Cesar's following Cesar's laws.  Tithing is God's.

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21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Taxation is Cesar's following Cesar's laws.  Tithing is God's.

Quite true, and the most important point here.

 

As for filing status, I was unclear.  There's a "married filing separately" status, for, well, married people who aren't filing jointly.  

What you can't do, is go from "joint" to "single" or "head of household" without a legal separation or divorce.

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4 hours ago, Nordic saint said:

 

These statements are the newest ones and been repeated ever since. I think though the misunderstanding happened by assuming that I didn't take God into the picture. However, I did say that we should do it by The Spirit of The Lord. In other words, it doesn't mean that whatever we pay in tithing is honest, it means that that it's between you and The Lord with no lifted finger from others. No mortal has the right to say that I have to add $10 extra in tithing to make it right, whether it should be gross or net or what money on my bank account constitutes my income :) I pesonally think it is really wise how we should let any judgement of our tithing come from God and not man since we mortals tend to become almost like devils when it's about money, especially other people's money

One of my favorite scriptures is Moroni chapter 10 - not so much what many quote about the BoM but the rest of the chapter.  I also have some strong connections to family.  I have a brother that is a most interesting and brilliant fellow.  He says that the way to deal with others is to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable.  I believe this to be a divine principle and another way of stating that the L-rd reproves those he loves.  I do not intend to dwell on this concept other than to state my opinion - which I have.

Another family member is what many would call inactive because he and his wife are not keen on attending church meetings but they are very loyal in their tithes and offerings and always have been.  Their bishops are always confused because most in-actives - the first thing to go or slide is the payment of tithes and offerings.

The final point of this particular post is my opinion of money.  I personally believe money causes way more problems than it solves and I am very disappointed (especially politically and socially) with those that find comfort, happiness, excitement, reward, pleasure or especially prestige from money.  If we look at the parables and teachings of Christ we will discover that the topic of money (wealth) is the single most popular subject referenced and that the references are mostly critical.  A particular teaching concerning money and heaven seems to indicate that those attached to money have no place in the divine kingdom of heaven and that getting to heaven (developing divine attitudes) are hindered and not helped with money.

To be honest - I believe G-d is quite disappointed with the necessity of explaining finite details about tithing - especially in detailed accounting particulars.  The scriptures make an interesting reference to Saints that rob G-d.  And how do they rob G-d?  Interestingly they could pay a full and honest tithe and still rob G-d.  Why???? -- Because the scriptures say they rob G-d by not paying their tithes and offerings.  And how much should we pay in offering? over the 10% we already pay in tithing?????  That answer to offerings is like so many references in math text books - that is left as an exercise for the reader.  There are no clear recommendations or percentages and I believe is a most interesting question of spirituality and demonstration of faith.

 

The Traveler

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6 hours ago, Nordic saint said:

The conclusions:

  • Members are entitled to make their own decision as to what they think they owe the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.
  • No one is justified in making any other statement than the one in the first quote

Irrelevant. The point is that an honest tithe is not constituted merely by whatever someone decides it is. You may decide to tithe based on whatever money you have left over after you've paid for "necessities", including recreation and vehicle payments. Your bishop may even sign your temple recommend. But that doesn't mean that you're square with God. We are not Universalists.

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

Irrelevant. The point is that an honest tithe is not constituted merely by whatever someone decides it is. You may decide to tithe based on whatever money you have left over after you've paid for "necessities", including recreation and vehicle payments. Your bishop may even sign your temple recommend. But that doesn't mean that you're square with God. We are not Universalists.

And that's why I mentioned God's part in tithing :) men are not supposed to dictate how much an honest tithe is, but I can guarantee that you don't want to cheat/mock God.. we know what happens to those kinds of people, so let's just listen to the prophets and the apostels when they have spoken :)

And yes, we are not universalists and I have never indicated that either.... quite the opposite actually

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On 3/3/2020 at 8:23 PM, rustyoz said:

So my wife has her adult son living with us, eating food, using water, using electricity, using gas, using the washing machine etc etc etc.  For this he pays $50 per week.  My wife then puts $5 into the bank to cover tithing on the $50 paid by her son.  I cant seem to help her understand that this is not an increase in our income, it is simply her son paying for living expenses that we have already spent on food, water, gas, electricity etc etc etc.  After all, I would like to see an adult pay less than $50 for everything he uses.  Any idea on how to explain it.  I do have a finance/accounting background but for some reason she still argues the point.

I recommend a 10% surcharge for children living at home

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/3/2020 at 5:23 PM, rustyoz said:

So my wife has her adult son living with us, eating food, using water, using electricity, using gas, using the washing machine etc etc etc.  For this he pays $50 per week.  My wife then puts $5 into the bank to cover tithing on the $50 paid by her son.  I cant seem to help her understand that this is not an increase in our income, it is simply her son paying for living expenses that we have already spent on food, water, gas, electricity etc etc etc.  After all, I would like to see an adult pay less than $50 for everything he uses.  Any idea on how to explain it.  I do have a finance/accounting background but for some reason she still argues the point.

So, you would deprive her of doing what she thinks is right?

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