A logical explanation for why Hell is not literally fire and brimstone.


person0
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3 minutes ago, person0 said:

The whole point of the OP is about a brief way of conveying to a mainstream Christian "why it is unnecessary to view Hell as a torment of literal fire and brimstone. . ."

But I do think it's necessary. For reasons mentioned above, I think the abstract of a burning fire perfectly explains what hellfire is.

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Also, based on this quote from C. S. Lewis, I doubt most Christians literally think of hell as a vulcan wasteland of fires and sulfur:

"There is no need to be worried by facetious people who try to make the Christian hope of ‘Heaven’ ridiculous by saying they do not want ‘to spend eternity playing harps’.

The answer to such people is that if they cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them.

All the scriptural imagery (harps, crowns, gold, etc.) is, of course, a merely symbolical attempt to express the inexpressible. Musical instruments are mentioned because for many people (not all) music is the thing known in the present life which most strongly suggests ecstasy and infinity. Crowns are mentioned to suggest the fact that those who are united with God in eternity share His splendour and power and joy. Gold is mentioned to suggest the timelessness of Heaven (gold does not rust) and the preciousness of it. People who take these symbols literally might as well think that when Christ told us to be like doves, He meant that we were to lay eggs."

Edited by Moonbeast32
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Of course the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not the only part that talks about fire and punishment.

Matthew 25:41

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41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 13:49-50

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49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 5:21-22

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21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Revelations 20:10-15

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10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There's more than just the parable of Lazarus that speaks about fire as a punishment.

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It is my personal belief that a great deal of what has become "doctrine" from interpretations of the scripture is because of an effort to translate symbolism in sacred scripture, literally.    I thought to make a big deal of all this but I have learned and observed the any suggestion of symbolism in a sentence that also contains the terms "sacred scripture" is a catalyst for anger, bitterness, arguments and hate.  It appears to me that the information (imagery)  we have  of our pre-existence, spirit rheum,  eternal glory (heaven) and eternal retribution (hell) in scripture is vague and very incomplete.  I believe this is by design.  And that the details of this imagery is has been filled in mostly with concepts and ideas straight out of paganism.   Often the images expressed of divine and demonic things and places are in direct contradictions of ideas and doctrines.

An example of contradictions is the idea that spirit and spiritual things are burdened and effected by physical things such as cold and hot.  Again the idea that heaven is a place of light and hell is a place of darkness - but what place of burning and eternal fire is going to be dark?  The thing of our view of the creations of G-d that represents light is our sun - which is used symbolically to represent the highest glory of G-d.  It is also the hottest burning thing that many think is more like hell.  It is also interesting to me that the more northern civilizations are, the more imagery in religion that hell is a very dark, cold place and then civilizations from hot climates generally view hell as a very hot place.

I have come to believe that in general the imagery a person uses to define the specifics of their heaven and hell is a direct reflection of their understanding and belief in G-d.  The more vengeful their G-d the more they want to see the sinner punished with pain (usually physical pain) and even destroyed.  The more loving and compassionate their G-d the more the sinful are punished by their own guilt and the more kind, loving and compassionate they view G-d in providing a place compatible for the sinner.  I believe that G-d will provide a place for those that want to point to and scorn those they think that have chosen foolishly (great and spacious building kind of place).  Or a place for those that sorrow for others that do not partake of the love, kindness and compassion of G-d.

I believe we will all line up and file into that place which is what filled with lots of how we love treating others.  But I must admit I am having some problems with not wanting to make fun of those that choose foolishly.  I am working on the love and caring thing but sadly I am still amused by idiots. 

 

The Traveler

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One reason many more conservative scholars believe that the account of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable is that Lazarus is named. When Jesus tells parables, simply to make his point, He does not name characters. IF that story is Jesus' recollection, and not a parable, then the traditional understand of hell as literal is at least more understandable, I suspect.

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15 hours ago, Moonbeast32 said:

The suffering of hellfire is not everlasting, but it's purpose is to fulfill the demands of justice and cleanse us of our sins.

I can't help wondering if there is a better system than one that requires pain in order to be purged. Isn't there a way, or a system, whereby the purging could be accomplished through some other means? Is there any reason why it has to involve pain and suffering? For example, when I purge by body at times of sickness through vomiting, its sometimes uncomfortable, buts its effective as a purge and not really painful. I don't understand why there needs to be links between justice, redemption and pain. 

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5 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I can't help wondering if there is a better system than one that requires pain in order to be purged. Isn't there a way, or a system, whereby the purging could be accomplished through some other means? Is there any reason why it has to involve pain and suffering? For example, when I purge by body at times of sickness through vomiting, its sometimes uncomfortable, buts its effective as a purge and not really painful. I don't understand why there needs to be links between justice, redemption and pain. 

Moonbeast portrays hell as a sort of LDS version of Catholic purgatory. I understand his reasoning and agree with many points, but I'm uncomfortable with a formal idea of purgation, probably because it's so closely associated with Catholicism. All will indeed be cleansed from their sin through Christ's atonement, as they must (lest they be cast off forever as filth), but all will not enter into exaltation. And the purpose of the gospel and all our preaching and efforts are to lead people to exaltation. We do not preach the telestial or the terrestrial kingdom. We do not encourage our brothers and sisters to set their sites on such a target.

As for your questions, A&A, I think they reflect some philosophical ponderings on the nature of joy and pain, which in turn demands an understanding of the nature of life, both mortal and immortal. Ultimately, the answer will boil down to something like: Joy and pain are states or conditions of being that reflect one's underlying spiritual state. That spiritual state, in turn, is determined by the choices one makes, especially including the choices to make and follow divine covenants.

If sin leads to pain and misery, then repentance is the rejection of pain and misery. But as scriptural accounts such as that of Alma the younger illustrate, sometimes we must reap the harvest of pain we have sown before we are willing to try to escape it. And sometimes we are deep enough in sin that the sin begins to somehow taste familiar and good, as with the young man who glories and takes pleasure in his fornications. In such a case, escaping sin can involve overcoming spiritual (including physical) addictions, an intrinsically painful process.

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57 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I can't help wondering if there is a better system than one that requires pain in order to be purged. Isn't there a way, or a system, whereby the purging could be accomplished through some other means? Is there any reason why it has to involve pain and suffering? For example, when I purge by body at times of sickness through vomiting, its sometimes uncomfortable, buts its effective as a purge and not really painful. I don't understand why there needs to be links between justice, redemption and pain. 

It seems to me that (consistent with the scholastic “new perspective on Paul”) the ultimate goal is reconciliation with God; and sometimes in order to be reconciled to someone, you have to fully know what it is to exist without them and without their influence.

I don’t believe God affirmatively causes pain.  I believe that trying to live without God just is pain, once you figure out that you can’t reject Him without rejecting everything that makes existence bearable.

Imagine hating God but still wanting, say, to preserve a friendship—but also suddenly understanding with a perfect knowledge that all of the characteristics that make your friendship valuable to you—love, laughter, self-sacrifice, everything—are attributes or creations of God Himself?  Every good thing you seek after reminds you of the Being who you are convinced has done you terrible wrong; whom you have dismissed as uncaring or cruel or hateful or unfair.  And in that state of perfect knowledge it’s just psychologically impossible to enjoy any of those good things you previously enjoyed, sought after, lived for.  Your hatred for God consumes you.  In your enmity you retreat into a state of solitude and nihilism, determined that if you can’t beat God you will at least get away from Him as thoroughly as possible.  You, of yourself, reject love, light, beauty, kindness, knowledge, family, friends—humanity itself—anything that reminds you of Him (and because you have been cursed with perfect knowledge, everything reminds you of Him).  You make your own hell, if it doesn’t exist already.

But after a while, when you wish for utter destruction, you look afar off and see Him, still calling.  And you just plain get tired of that sort of existence, and become ready to accept His mercy; and you cry out for Him.  That, I think, is when the bonds of Hell are broken—not when you’ve been “punished enough”, but when you’ve been changed enough to realize how much you need Him and when you can’t help but to value and reciprocate the love He offers you.  And you gladly accept whatever kingdom of glory He offers.

You haven’t been punished.  You’ve been saved.  

 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I can't help wondering if there is a better system than one that requires pain in order to be purged. Isn't there a way, or a system, whereby the purging could be accomplished through some other means? Is there any reason why it has to involve pain and suffering? For example, when I purge by body at times of sickness through vomiting, its sometimes uncomfortable, buts its effective as a purge and not really painful. I don't understand why there needs to be links between justice, redemption and pain. 

Yes, there is a better way.

Remember this?

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink

 

It's not a "system," it's the inevitability for transgressing the law.

1 hour ago, Vort said:

 I understand his reasoning and agree with many points, but I'm uncomfortable with a formal idea of purgation, probably because it's so closely associated with Catholicism

What exactly are the points you disagree with? It looks like we're on the same page to me.

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I just read the JST version of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and was struck by the repeated term "torments." The rich man's suffering and angst for his family is described in great detail. We may not agree on whether this is parable or recollection (scholars argue this point even within mainstream Christianity). However, for sure there is warning here that to come to the end apart from God is literally a fate worse than death. I suspect that most members would also want to help their relatives avoid the Telestial Kingdom, even though it is a realm of glory. I suspect we can agree on this: May they see our good works and glorify God in heaven!

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I am sure  these questions  been asked and answered,

where is hell?

is hell physical, consistent with elements on the periodic chart in use today by science?

is man who goes there carbon based or unknown spirit based substance?

is hell God's creation ?

is God satisfied to resurrect a man and torture him?

What is the second death?

is the earliest concept of hell has it's roots in Babylonian ,Sumerian story telling?

did Moses or Abraham teach a hell for sinners?

is it normal for a father to torture his  sons and daughters?

Do we as parents think our children should be torture when needed or required?

Is no resurrection better than resurrection and torture?

What proper torture environment and methods is best recommended to get the desired torture results?

how does one proceed from death to hell,how and what matter is used to make the transit?

 

 

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5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems to me that (consistent with the scholastic “new perspective on Paul”) the ultimate goal is reconciliation with God; and sometimes in order to be reconciled to someone, you have to fully know what it is to exist without them and without their influence.

I don’t believe God affirmatively causes pain.  I believe that trying to live without God just is pain, once you figure out that you can’t reject Him without rejecting everything that makes existence bearable.

Imagine hating God but still wanting, say, to preserve a friendship—but also suddenly understanding with a perfect knowledge that all of the characteristics that make your friendship valuable to you—love, laughter, self-sacrifice, everything—are attributes or creations of God Himself?  Every good thing you seek after reminds you of the Being who you are convinced has done you terrible wrong; whom you have dismissed as uncaring or cruel or hateful or unfair.  And in that state of perfect knowledge it’s just psychologically impossible to enjoy any of those good things you previously enjoyed, sought after, lived for.  Your hatred for God consumes you.  In your enmity you retreat into a state of solitude and nihilism, determined that if you can’t beat God you will at least get away from Him as thoroughly as possible.  You, of yourself, reject love, light, beauty, kindness, knowledge, family, friends—humanity itself—anything that reminds you of Him (and because you have been cursed with perfect knowledge, everything reminds you of Him).  You make your own hell, if it doesn’t exist already.

But after a while, when you wish for utter destruction, you look afar off and see Him, still calling.  And you just plain get tired of that sort of existence, and become ready to accept His mercy; and you cry out for Him.  That, I think, is when the bonds of Hell are broken—not when you’ve been “punished enough”, but when you’ve been changed enough to realize how much you need Him and when you can’t help but to value and reciprocate the love He offers you.  And you gladly accept whatever kingdom of glory He offers.

You haven’t been punished.  You’ve been saved.  

 

I'm wondering how this arguement would play out with atheists who don't know or don't care or who don't believe in the existence of God, and have no thoughts or feelings towards or about Him at all,  but who still have lots of meaningul relationships and enjoy what they feel is a full and rich life?

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54 minutes ago, Earl said:

I am sure  these questions  been asked and answered,

where is hell?

is hell physical, consistent with elements on the periodic chart in use today by science?

is man who goes there carbon based or unknown spirit based substance?

is hell God's creation ?

is God satisfied to resurrect a man and torture him?

What is the second death?

is the earliest concept of hell has it's roots in Babylonian ,Sumerian story telling?

did Moses or Abraham teach a hell for sinners?

is it normal for a father to torture his  sons and daughters?

Do we as parents think our children should be torture when needed or required?

Is no resurrection better than resurrection and torture?

What proper torture environment and methods is best recommended to get the desired torture results?

how does one proceed from death to hell,how and what matter is used to make the transit?

 

 

I'm comfortable with the idea of a Creater being able to do as He wishes with His creations, particularly if what is done is all in agreement with a plan that the creations agreed to prior to coming to this Earth.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of the that which has been created, from their extremely limited perspective and lack of knowledge, trying to pass any sort of judgements on the works and actions of the Creator. 

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21 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm wondering how this arguement would play out with atheists who don't know or don't care or who don't believe in the existence of God, and have no thoughts or feelings towards or about Him at all,  but who still have lots of meaningul relationships and enjoy what they feel is a full and rich life?

After death, you mean?

I would surmise that the triggering moment is the sudden realization that—oh, crap—not only IS there a God; but He was the ultimate source of all those good things I was enjoying.

It seems to me that Alma the Younger’s conversion is sort of a microcosm of this process—you deny, deny, deny until you are confronted with knowledge that makes it impossible for you to deny anymore; and then you either resist God or surrender to Him.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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How is something dead that is alive in the lake of fire if it were not for Mythric,Egyptian and Zoorasterism.

And this is how the logical explanation why hell is not literally fire and brimstone.

Foregoing is an example of what occurs through and up to standing on the streets of Heaven.

1A-you begin your life on Earth.Your name is written in the book of life.

1-Physical death.This is the so called first death(actually sleeping).This is a undetermined time prior to judgement of the just and unjust.You are not conscious.

2-The judgement of the just and unjust.At this formality you remain sleeping during this frame of time.(Counter to popular belief).

3-The book of life is opened.

4- Rev. 20.14-The next process is the actual judgement.Will your name remain in the book of life?Everyone on Earth will be called eventually.

5-When you are judged and proceed in life your name remains in the book.If you do not proceed once judged your name is erased .From a temporary sleeping condition to death ,permanent

condition.(This is the second death)(from sleeping to total extinction).

6- Erasing your name is the second death.(from sleeping to permanent death)(you are a living potential until the second death,now you cease to exist ,your name is erased.There is no book of the dead,no hell after life at all.Your name is not and neither are you.

7-Once your name is called to proceed in life you awaken and spiritualize on the sea of glass.Rev 15.2.

8-Your journey begins now.

The lake of fire don't exist because you don't exist.No one to put in the lake of fire.Dead means dead.How is something dead alive in the lake of fire?

To awaken all that are sleeping prior to judgement for the judgement process would just be rewarded with life unconditionally.Everyone gets rewarded because the awakening is on the sea of glass as John describes it.If all are to be awakened prior to judgement the judgement is useless .

Rev21.27-No one who is defiled shall enter the gates of heaven or on the sea of glass,the first stop.Heaven is only for those who are written in the lambs book of life.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Earl said:

The lake of fire don't exist because you don't exist.

For the record, this subforum is LDS Gospel Discussion, and the above is explicitly contrary to LDS doctrine. We are eternal beings, indeed coeternal with God himself. We will never cease to exist.

Edited by Vort
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Vort ,Just being polite here,

I stated that this is an example ,Giving quotes from the bible to express the example.

Th OP was /is a logical explanation why hell is not literal___.

I provided one.Is it comprehensible?

But since my example contains christian bible quotes is that also contrary as you say?

After all, do not LDS call themselves christians?

Or have these quotes excluded from LDS doctrines?

And while I sometimes post on the christian sub forum I am told on occasion we don't believe that "Or similiar  phrasing.

What I see is that my quotes are  taken from the Bible the same place LDS also quotes from.

Since this thread started no one so far has created a sequence of events leading to eternal life from either holy book.

Is the Bible unreliable for this OP?

Either way please feel free to make any corrective measures as you see fit.Just being polite here.

 

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Remember Jarius' daughter. Mk5-21-43.The family concluded the daughter was dead.and was mourning .Jesus arrived and said she was only sleeping.Jarius' daughter may be known as being resurrected twice from her two first deaths(sleeping)if she also proceeds and continues life after judgement of the just and unjust.

I found an internet page based on this event by LDS.

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On 3/9/2020 at 6:15 AM, mikbone said:

Esoteric opinions to follow.

I like the theory that Hell is a black hole:

Outer Darkness

No Escape, except for Hawking Radiation which means anything that that goes in only comes out as radiation.

No one knows the fate of these Sons of Perdition.  Once you pass through the event horizon no one knows what is going on in there.

Not sure about fire and brimstone, but I assume the pressure from Gravity would be uncomfortable.

 

Here are a few thoughts I have jotted down over the years on the possibility that black holes have some sort of divine role in the universe. There is nothing scriptural here, just a few ideas, maybe even possibilities. I’m not saying they are right or wrong, I’ve just found it to be an interesting thing to think about from time to time. I almost never share my thoughts in such an unpolished form, but @mikbone's post got me thinking.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

What forces or objects in the universe repel and forsake each other in the same way that light and truth forsake evil? Opposite ends of magnetic poles? Matter and anti-matter? Are these forces properties of, or in some way derived from that same opposition between light and evil? What creates or generates light, and what absorbs light and sucks it up? Stars create light, black holes absorb it. Are stars in some way related to gods, or the abode of gods, and black holes in some ways abodes of evil? Do stars create matter through nuclear reactions and then disseminate that matter throughout space and do black holes tear matter apart through gravitational forces and prevent matter from dissemination throughout space? God creates by joining things together, eg, spirit to intelligence to create a soul, sperm and egg to create a body, husband and wife to create an eternal couple, black holes tear things apart.

Isaiah 54:2 (Old Testament | Isaiah 54:16)

16  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 When God wants something to be destroyed, one way of doing so would be to separate that thing into its component parts, ie whatever it was they were before God joined them. This is something that black holes do very well, with something like godly efficiency. 

The works of God are endless and eternal and possibly increasing. The universe is expanding. Gravitational forces could prevent the universe from expanding and cause it to contract back in upon itself, ultimately reversing the big bang. ( I undestand now that the current view of astrophysicists is that this is the less likely option but it still doesnt seem to be a settled question.) That which limits is evil and of the devil, that which increases is good and of God. That which promotes freedom, ie, free movement and expansion of matter or spirit, is of God, that which promotes control, ie, preventing the movement of matter and spirit, is of the devil. If the intentions of God is expansion and progression, and the effect of black holes is to contract, these two forces would seem to be completely opposed to each other.

It could be that God’s  dwelling place is a Sun. Abraham chapter 3 seems to suggest this as do the many references to God dwelling in the midst of everlasting burnings. If this is true then it is interesting to speculate on the possibility of outer darkness being a black hole. It seems reasonable to suppose that hell, or outer darkness would be the opposite of heaven.  A sun gives out all its light, a black hole gives out none. A sun allows life by giving of its light, a black hole causes death by sucking up whatever gets too close, including light.

An interesting quote:

 If the black hole were rotating and the astronaut navigates his ship at just the right angle, instead of being drawn to oblivion at the hole's center, he might be flung to another region of time and space. But we would never know if he were successful: it would be impossible for him to return. Could this be the "outer darkness" mentioned in some scriptures such as D&C 101:91? (From The Creation, by Frank B Salisbury, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_B._Salisbury available from http://www.gospelink.com/

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/8/2020 at 9:03 AM, person0 said:

ANSWER:  Because being fully and completely cut off from God and the Light of Christ is already the worst pain and torment that is possible.

That is a very interesting answer. It would mean that we are not now fully and completely cut off. But because this is the only existence we can remember, it is easy to not understand what it would mean to be fully and completely cut off. IOW, we take for granted what we have now, even though it's not much. Couple that with knowing what we had as we remember our previous existence, even if only for a moment. I imagine it to be a place that is literally void of any light whatsoever with people who went out of their way to reject what they once had and fight against it. I think it would be a horrible experience to be deprived of all sensory perception.

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