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Within mainstream, or historic, or traditional Christianity the truly devout probably dedicate about 15-hours a week to church and personal devotions (prayer and Bible reading/study). I base this on attending 4-5 hours of church per week (main service and 1-2 smaller group functions) and 1.5 hours per day of prayer and Bible reading. This person also tithes and probably gives another 2-5% to missions and special offerings. Most would say that church blessed far more than it drained, and that small group functions are a kind of "midweek pick-me-up." Devotions are more of a discipline, but most report experiencing refreshing, peace and strength from them.

I suspect that LDS put in significantly more time/energy. It can be fulfilling and rewarding, but perhaps sometimes exhausting. If so, how to reset? How to find balance? And, perhaps a more general question--one appropriate for all religious people: Should practicing faith be hard? Of course there are trying experiences, but I refer to the day-to-day. Should the regular practice of devotion to God be difficult?

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I don't look at it as "dedicating X hours a week to church and personal devotions".  I look at it as 24/7 Christian Living.  I don't like the idea of being devoted only while praying or reading the Bible or attending services or church functions, etc.  That makes it seem like grocery shopping, soccer, work, etc. are not devotions.  Reading the Bible is well and good.  But reading the Bible is only preparation and study for living it.

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@anatess2 raises an interesting point. Why do we do what we do? Are devotions and religious service primarily preparation for living godly lives? Joel Osteen's wife (sorry, don't recall her name) created controversy when she said to the effect that we worship (sing) primarily for our own benefit. God doesn't need our praise but it blesses us to do so. So, do we sing hymns to bless ourselves? Do we pray so we are more God-centered throughout the day? Do we read our scriptures so that we will act more godly?

Jews read their scriptures primarily to find out what is "kosher"--acceptable to God. They want to do the right and not do the wrong.

All that is well and good. However, I also hope that in my singing, praying, scripture-reading/studying that I commune with God. I hear his direction, sense his presence, and move under his anointing. So...if my spiritual efforts become mere check-list items--a mere dedicating of X-hours--then yeah, that's exhausting. So, again, how to recognize what's happening? How to reset? How to find that balance where 'faith works' empower rather than deplete?

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Within mainstream, or historic, or traditional Christianity the truly devout probably dedicate about 15-hours a week to church and personal devotions (prayer and Bible reading/study). [...] I suspect that LDS put in significantly more time/energy.

I seriously doubt that the average Latter-day Saint spends 15 or more hours per week in Church activities and personal devotions. For the average (active) Latter-day Saint, weekly Church activities consists of two hours of Sunday Church meetings and, on average, perhaps an hour more per week of some sort of meeting or gathering. Even if you throw in an hour-long family home evening every week, that leaves eleven hours. For the average Latter-day Saint, I doubt that personal devotions occupy another eleven hours per week. If there is, on average, an honest three hours per week dedicated to personal prayer and family/personal scripture study, I would be surprised.

I suspect this is the case with many other aspects of our religion, such as the monthly fast. There are certainly individuals who faithfully observe a full (meaning 24-hour) fast every month. I believe such individuals enjoy many or all of the blessings associated with the fast. But my observation, based on a lifetime of living with, speaking with, and being one of the Saints, is that many don't fast at all, and the majority who do fast do so for an even shorter period than 24 hours.

Another example is scripture study, specifically of the Book of Mormon. In the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord proclaimed that the Church was under condemnation for treating the Book of Mormon and the other revelations lightly. President Benson reaffirmed this in a well-remembered 1986 General Conference address called "Cleansing the Inner Vessel". In this talk, he quoted the Doctrine and Covenants verses linked above and proclaimed,

The Book of Mormon has not been, nor is it yet, the center of our personal study, family teaching, preaching, and missionary work. Of this we must repent.

The point is that we are not living up to our covenants as we ought, and thus are not living up to our privileges as we ought. I say this not to point the finger of blame, but to describe reality as I perceive it. I think we individually miss out on great blessings when we don't avail ourselves of things like the fast (which is itself a great blessing), and I think that we as a Church miss out on the blessings God wants to bestow upon us because of our laxity in obedience to commandment.

Edited by Vort
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In fairness, my 15-hour per week estimate was for those Christians who actually do what we've been taught to do. I agree that the vast majority pray less than 10-minutes a day, and might read a Daily Bread-type devotional (2-3 minutes). "Average" church + devotions might be 3 hours per week. I doubt those folks suffer the spiritual fatigue I referred to. I'm thinking more about those who actually follow church guidance (covenants?).

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3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@anatess2 raises an interesting point. Why do we do what we do? Are devotions and religious service primarily preparation for living godly lives? Joel Osteen's wife (sorry, don't recall her name) created controversy when she said to the effect that we worship (sing) primarily for our own benefit. God doesn't need our praise but it blesses us to do so. So, do we sing hymns to bless ourselves? Do we pray so we are more God-centered throughout the day? Do we read our scriptures so that we will act more godly?

We have an LDS version of this - Sabbath was made for Man and not Man for the Sabbath.  The answers to your questions are Yes Yes and Yes.

I used to be the Primary Singing Time teacher.  My calling was not to teach children how to sing.  My calling was teaching the Gospel to children.  Being a descendant of Alzheimer's patients on both sides of my family, I am reminded that music stays in one's memory for a longer time.  My grandma could barely remember her children's names and even remember what year it currently is... but she can still sing the words in a lot of hymns.  In addition, music evokes emotions.  It's a primal way of expressing deep feelings that words sometimes can't express completely.  The majesty of singing The Spirit of God expresses my love of God much more fully than my prayers sometimes can.  Master the Tempest is Raging expresses my need for Divine comfort more fully than my prayers sometimes can.  Welcome Sabbath Morning brings about a reverence that lasts throughout a meeting, etc. etc.

I also posit that Prayer is the way we align our Will to the Father's.  A prayer humbly offered and answered indicates our Will aligned with the Father's Will for us.  A prayer humbly offered and not answered indicates God's Will and God's Time and God's Purpose is not where we desired it to be.

We read Scriptures because the purpose of life is to Love and Love means to bring ourselves and others closer to Christ.  Pondering Scriptures reveals to us where Christ is so we can bring ourselves and others closer to Him.

None of this bears any effect if our devotion ends the minute we finish a prayer, sung a hymn, close the Scriptures, go home from Sunday meetings, etc.  These things we bring with us into our daily Christian living.

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That is beautiful, @anatess2. Thank you. I wonder if sometimes I worry so much about the practical part--performing well afterwards--that I fail to give myself over to what the Spirit wants to do in the midst of devotion time--or even when in worship with the congregation? Maybe I'm not alone?

Edited by prisonchaplain
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3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Are devotions and religious service primarily preparation for living godly lives? Joel Osteen's wife (sorry, don't recall her name) created controversy when she said to the effect that we worship (sing) primarily for our own benefit. God doesn't need our praise but it blesses us to do so. So, do we sing hymns to bless ourselves? Do we pray so we are more God-centered throughout the day? Do we read our scriptures so that we will act more godly?

I don't know who Joel Osteen is—my brain wants to make bad associations with televangelists and other Christemporoi—but I agree with his wife. We "bless" God in the sense that we bring him joy when we accept the salvation and exaltation he so freely gives to those who desire it. We "make him proud", as it were. But other than that, the flow of blessings is pretty much unidirectional. Everything we do redounds to our exaltation or condemnation. God in his being remains wholly unaffected by our decisions.

So does that mean we worship God in order to gain blessings to ourselves? Well...yes, in an important sense, it means exactly that. But as we serve God and follow his Christ, we begin to lose ourselves, which means we begin to lose interest in ourselves as far as satisfying our own carnal cravings goes. We think of others. We work for their benefit. And in doing so, we find our own salvation at the hand of God.

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

…we serve God and follow his Christ, we begin to lose ourselves, … And in doing so, we find our own salvation at the hand of God.

Life-saving stuff right there! Jesus promised we'd save our lives if we would just give them up.

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5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

@anatess2 raises an interesting point. Why do we do what we do? Are devotions and religious service primarily preparation for living godly lives? Joel Osteen's wife (sorry, don't recall her name) created controversy when she said to the effect that we worship (sing) primarily for our own benefit. God doesn't need our praise but it blesses us to do so. So, do we sing hymns to bless ourselves? Do we pray so we are more God-centered throughout the day? Do we read our scriptures so that we will act more godly?

Jews read their scriptures primarily to find out what is "kosher"--acceptable to God. They want to do the right and not do the wrong.

When all is said and done, for me, the main game is my own salvation and that will happen as i become the sort of person that God wants me to be. That drives a lot of why i do what i do. I'm doing it primarily for my benefit and self-interest, not God's, with the knowledge that He is still very interested.

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7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Within mainstream, or historic, or traditional Christianity the truly devout probably dedicate about 15-hours a week to church and personal devotions (prayer and Bible reading/study). I base this on attending 4-5 hours of church per week (main service and 1-2 smaller group functions) and 1.5 hours per day of prayer and Bible reading. This person also tithes and probably gives another 2-5% to missions and special offerings. Most would say that church blessed far more than it drained, and that small group functions are a kind of "midweek pick-me-up." Devotions are more of a discipline, but most report experiencing refreshing, peace and strength from them.

I suspect that LDS put in significantly more time/energy. It can be fulfilling and rewarding, but perhaps sometimes exhausting. If so, how to reset? How to find balance? And, perhaps a more general question--one appropriate for all religious people: Should practicing faith be hard? Of course there are trying experiences, but I refer to the day-to-day. Should the regular practice of devotion to God be difficult?

Nephi in Helaman 10 seems to have learned the principle of "unwearyingness" (v. 4-5). I take this to be a combination of spiritual effort in godly endeavors and the Lord's grace. I think sometimes physical and emotional strain can, with the help of the devil, get misinterpreted as spiritual exhaustion or get leveraged to undermine faith. As we practice charity and see God's children and the world we live in with spiritual eyes, we can be disciples even when we are otherwise weary or burdened with our mortal weaknesses, and take a rest (following the Lord's example). This rest is recreational or restorative physically, mentally, emotionally, etc. but not spiritually since as we fall asleep, or whatever we do, we consecrate it unto the Lord (2 Nephi 32:9)... when we remember! :)

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5 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

That is beautiful, @anatess2. Thank you. I wonder if sometimes I worry so much about the practical part--performing well afterwards--that I fail to give myself over to what the Spirit wants to do in the midst of devotion time--or even when in worship with the congregation? Maybe I'm not alone?

If any of the sermons you gave (I look forward to more of your videos!) is any indication, I can surely feel it touch my life.  And I’m only hearing it over the internet.  How much more for those sitting on the pews.  A message delivered with such love brings one to live what the Spirit confirms in our hearts even as we’re not ultimately conscious of it.

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What exactly do you count as church activity, @prisonchaplain? I spend a great deal of my time listening to old talks from past general conferences. That being said, I do not consider listening to these talks to be considered a dedicated study. I just do it to pass time

Besides that, I study the Book of Mormon about 1/2 hour every day, with the occasional additional study amounting to about 1 hour per week.

There is of course church, including coming early and intermingling afterwards , totalling near 3 hours. After church, I usually get together with a group of friends for 2 hoursto study and discuss next week's reading for the Come Follow Me program.

 

With all that listed, it's time to answer your question.

14 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Should practicing faith be hard?

This question isn't specific enough. Despite all the activities I've listed, Ive still gotten no closer to being the ideal sort of member of the Church of Christ I want to be. Why? Because engaging in this amount of time isn't meant to accomplish that end. I suspect that 80% of the time, I'm missing the point as to why I'm doing them.

To abstractify my thoughts, Worship smart, then hard.

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I do not think worship, service, prayer and study should be “hard” in the sense it is a slog but it can often be demanding. Corporate worship, prayer and service within the Church are essential. I think a small weekly study group is vital too. It is a time to really bound with fellow Saints and explore your faith in a very safe environment. You make close friendships here which are different from any other. Also, I spend time in private prayer and study. I had not really counted the hours but it must be over ten each week even if it is not fifteen. I find the blessingS that come from this and the inner peace is created far outweighs the effort involved. 
 

There may be times when my immediate instinct is to roll over and have and extra three quarters of an hour in bed or I do not feel like spending an evening with our small group after a long working day. However, once I start any reticence I had about starting goes immediately. If I do miss out on private prayer and  study I feel the lack of it throughout the day. If it was simply hard, it would be a relief not to do it. By not doing it I miss the many blessings that flow from it. So for me it is not hard it is an essential part of my week which I could not do without. 
 

As corporate worship is likely to be suspended because of the virus I think many of us will experience how much we miss our Church and those who attend it. 

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@Moonbeast32  You are not missing the point. That you do so much, and yet consider it as passing time, happenstance, or just what you do, makes your spiritual discipline that much more remarkable. I suspect that you have captured the point so well you are not even conscious of it. It's not supposed to be hard. That's the gist of this string. Once the learning of a Christian practice transitions to knowing and doing, it should be life-enhancing. It ought not make us exhausted and depleted. It's still not always easy, but it is empowering. You seem to have captured that so well it's not something you have to dwell on. Kudos.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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@Vort  I gotta push back on your anti-corporate stance a bit. We often discuss corporate worship. It's more than business, but serious business surely takes place when we come together in worship. When I was doing missionary work in Korea the director of the indigenous campus mission I cooperated with loved to use the phrase, "Selling the gospel." He was Korean and seemed to enjoy employing unusual-yet-accurate turns on English words and phrases. At first I was somewhat off-put (this was the late-80s, and the tele-evangelists scandals were still smarting) by the phrase. However, I came to realize that we are indeed 'selling.' Salvation might be free, but maintenance and upkeep are enough to be life-changing.

Likewise, we may have negative connotations of mixing church and company, but when we gather to sing and pray and learn together we have signed up for Kingdom business.

:itwasntme: Okay, yeah, this was a blatant use of an obscure point of definition so that I could :pope: pontificate...but hey, that's what you get when you let a preacher on the boards. :sparklygrin:

Edited by prisonchaplain
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39 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Vort  I gotta push back on your anti-corporate stance a bit. We often discuss corporate worship. It's more than business, but serious business surely takes place when we come together in worship. When I was doing missionary work in Korea the director of the indigenous campus mission I cooperated with loved to use the phrase, "Selling the gospel." He was Korean and seemed to enjoy employing unusual-yet-accurate turns on English words and phrases. At first I was somewhat off-put (this was the late-80s, and the tele-evangelists scandals were still smarting) by the phrase. However, I came to realize that we are indeed 'selling.' Salvation might be free, but maintenance and upkeep are enough to be life-changing.

Likewise, we may have negative connotations of mixing church and company, but when we gather to sing and pray and learn together we have signed up for Kingdom business.

:itwasntme: Okay, yeah, this was a blatant use of an obscure point of definition so that I could :pope: pontificate...but hey, that's what you get when you let a preacher on the boards. :sparklygrin:

You may be right and I may be wrong. It certainly would not be the first time. But I stand by what I wrote. "Corporate" is absolutely the wrong word to use with any true worship.

I also disagree with the very idea of "selling" the gospel. I am just naive enough to believe that Christ's sheep hear his voice, even when that voice doesn't use the dulcet, politically correct tones of the times. Perhaps especially then. Sure, we try to portray the appealing parts, but we don't do a "hard sell" or practice our "closing techniques". Or if we do, we're way off-base and not following the instruction of the Lord.

I realize that the phrase "corporate gospel" might be used in some circles and have a special, well-understood contextual meaning within those circles. If that's the case, I am not aware of it, so I can only go by the meanings of the words themselves.

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3 minutes ago, Vort said:

You may be right and I may be wrong. It certainly would not be the first time. But I stand by what I wrote. "Corporate" is absolutely the wrong word to use with any true worship.

I also disagree with the very idea of "selling" the gospel. I am just naive enough to believe that Christ's sheep hear his voice, even when that voice doesn't use the dulcet, politically correct tones of the times. Perhaps especially then. Sure, we try to portray the appealing parts, but we don't do a "hard sell" or practice our "closing techniques". Or if we do, we're way off-base and not following the instruction of the Lord.

I realize that the phrase "corporate gospel" might be used in some circles and have a special, well-understood contextual meaning within those circles. If that's the case, I am not aware of it, so I can only go by the meanings of the words themselves.

You mentioned not knowing Joel Osteen before... his name popped up in my head when I heard "corporate worship".  I don't want to judge Osteen's brand of evangelism, though.  

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You mentioned not knowing Joel Osteen before...

I've heard of the guy, and at some point in the past I could have told you something or other about him, like that he was a televangelist. I looked him up yesterday to find out that familiar-sounding tidbit. Other than that, I don't remember if he's controversial or not, or anything else about him except what he looks like (based on my web search yesterday). Oh, and he's about two months younger than I am.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

You mentioned not knowing Joel Osteen before... his name popped up in my head when I heard "corporate worship".  I don't want to judge Osteen's brand of evangelism, though.  

First, for @Vort: "Corporate worship" is a common phrase that can best be understood as congregate worship. There is no nuance of it being business or money oriented. It's just the worship we do "as a body." (now there is some Evangelicalese). Also, I agree that promoting the gospel as a good material buy would be very bad. The director I mentioned had in mind the type of missions work the church engages in combined with all believers being ready to "share their faith," or, as LDS like to say, "bear testimony." Too many Christians believe more in pluralism and the cultural impulse that religion is deeply personal and not meant to be shared without invitation than they do in Jesus' admonition to make disciples.

Joel Osteen's ministry and message do focus on how Christian beliefs make our lives better today, now, and here. His most well-known book is: Your Best Life Now. LIke @anatess2, I'm loathe to criticize other ministers. So, I'll simply say that our long view seems much more powerful and promising.  

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13 hours ago, Moonbeast32 said:

What exactly do you count as church activity, @prisonchaplain? I spend a great deal of my time listening to old talks from past general conferences. That being said, I do not consider listening to these talks to be considered a dedicated study. I just do it to pass time

Yes, I agree. I suppose I average about two or three hours per week listening to past General Conferences, but I don't really count that as time spent engaging in personal devotions. More like an effort of hope that something worthwhile will rub off, moreso than if I spent the entire time listening to my music playlist.

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2 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

First, for @Vort: "Corporate worship" is a common phrase that can best be understood as congregate worship. There is no nuance of it being business or money oriented. It's just the worship we do "as a body." (now there is some Evangelicalese).

Ah. "Corporate" in the sense of corpus, corporis (Latin for "body"). I guess that makes pretty good sense.

But I still hate the term. I won't be adopting it any time soon. Sorry.

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@Moonbeast32 and @Vort, let me help you. You get to count listening to past conferences. My wife loves to listen to Pastor Jim Cymbala (Brooklyn Tabernacle) on podcast. She often admonishes me to do so. Sometimes I do. It may be enjoyable, but not relaxing...not brain candy. So, good on you for attending to the spoken word.

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