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Ironically as we discuss corporate entities...the Church operates in it's gathering of money and paying (granting of benefits and allowances) via...

CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

https://secure.utah.gov/bes/details.html?entity=555534-0145

We don't worship the corporation, but we may be worshipping in it's holdings.

It's not that I agree with the idea of us worshipping a corporation in any way, I don't.

I find it a great irony regarding this conversation in regards to one of the major controlling entities within the Church.

 

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On 3/11/2020 at 9:57 AM, prisonchaplain said:

Within mainstream, or historic, or traditional Christianity the truly devout probably dedicate about 15-hours a week to church and personal devotions (prayer and Bible reading/study). I base this on attending 4-5 hours of church per week (main service and 1-2 smaller group functions) and 1.5 hours per day of prayer and Bible reading. This person also tithes and probably gives another 2-5% to missions and special offerings. Most would say that church blessed far more than it drained, and that small group functions are a kind of "midweek pick-me-up." Devotions are more of a discipline, but most report experiencing refreshing, peace and strength from them.

I suspect that LDS put in significantly more time/energy. It can be fulfilling and rewarding, but perhaps sometimes exhausting. If so, how to reset? How to find balance? And, perhaps a more general question--one appropriate for all religious people: Should practicing faith be hard? Of course there are trying experiences, but I refer to the day-to-day. Should the regular practice of devotion to God be difficult?

I have come a little late to this conversation.  I really liked @anatess2 ‘s first response.  She may not realize how often and much I agree with her because I seldom make note of it.  I will start my remarks from here with a little parable about cycling:

When I first started cycling I posted a little note on my handle bars of all my gear ratios with color highlights for rapid gear changes.  I studied training information, equipment and various advantages.  Often I would take “training” rides to concentrate on various elements to improve, strength, endurance and tactical elements of riding.  I thought this would come in handy when competing.  However, as I grew to enjoy riding and commuting by bicycle to work I found I did not need training rides – I could incorporate everything in to my commuting and that I could improve and enjoy ridding doing the same thing.  Over time some things I did to learn evolved such that I did other things – I no longer care about gear ratios except when I purchase or upgrade my equipment.

Now to apply the parable – there was a philosopher (forget their name) that criticized Christians by comparing them to geese that waddle around all week in the mud – but then on one day a week they waddle to a meeting place to talk about flying.  After which the waddle back through the mud to their regular place and continue to waddle around in the mud.  But they never fly – they only talk about flying.

The goal of true religion is not to read scripture, nor to pray nor to mediate and think about G-d.   Though these things can help us achieve divine goals – they are not the goal.

Jesus taught this very principle in his parable of the Good Samaritan.  The Levites and Priests exhibited the most piety.  Of all people among the Jews – the Samaritans were considered the less religious or without piety.  But it was the Good Samaritan that most exhibited the worship of G-d by loving his neighbor.

The first commandment is to love G-d.  Some think that means to go to church and worship – that is being religious.  But Jesus said that the second great commandment was just like the first – meaning that in true worship they cannot be separated.   If we are like the ancient Levite and Priest that do not help the dying and wounded in need – then all our scripture reading, praying and going to church is worthless.

Another way to put this is:  Going to church, reading scripture and praying will no more make a person a Christian than sleeping in a garage will make someone a Ford or Chevy.

It is not what you do while all your Christian friends are watching that makes someone a Christian – not that those things should not be done – but the real effort to be a Christian happens when only you and G-d know what you did.

I believe when you are this kind of Christian – you do not need pick-me-ups, balance, rest or revival.  I believe Jesus (scripture) put it this way – “You will walk and not be weary; run and not faint.”  You will enjoy cycling – weather you are commuting to work, riding on a weekend or competing in a race – you will enjoy the hardship of a hot sunny day or a windy stormy day because it is what you want to do.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Ironically as we discuss corporate entities...the Church operates in it's gathering of money and paying (granting of benefits and allowances) via...

CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

https://secure.utah.gov/bes/details.html?entity=555534-0145

We don't worship the corporation, but we may be worshipping in it's holdings.

It's not that I agree with the idea of us worshipping a corporation in any way, I don't.

I find it a great irony regarding this conversation in regards to one of the major controlling entities within the Church.

The same word, which means "body", represents two very different meanings.

  • In a strictly religious Church setting, "corporate" refers to the body of believers considered as a group, essentially the "body of Christ".
  • In a legal setting, including the above example of "the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", the word refers to the idea that an incorporeal construct—in this case, "the Church" as a legal entity—is given virtual corporeal existence so that it can stand before a court of law and take or receive legal action.

It's a more or less coincidental word correspondence, though I agree it's interesting and perhaps somewhat ironic.

Edited by Vort
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10 hours ago, Vort said:

This is a terrible term. There is nothing "corporate" about communal public worship.

Vort:

Sorry about the use of the word “corporate”. It simply means as a body or a group. It was not meant to imply that there was anything commercial in worshiping together. 

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49 minutes ago, KevinH said:

Vort:

Sorry about the use of the word “corporate”. It simply means as a body or a group. It was not meant to imply that there was anything commercial in worshiping together. 

Yes, PC already corrected me. Sorry about that.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/11/2020 at 8:57 AM, prisonchaplain said:

Within mainstream, or historic, or traditional Christianity the truly devout probably dedicate about 15-hours a week to church and personal devotions (prayer and Bible reading/study). I base this on attending 4-5 hours of church per week (main service and 1-2 smaller group functions) and 1.5 hours per day of prayer and Bible reading. This person also tithes and probably gives another 2-5% to missions and special offerings. Most would say that church blessed far more than it drained, and that small group functions are a kind of "midweek pick-me-up." Devotions are more of a discipline, but most report experiencing refreshing, peace and strength from them.

I suspect that LDS put in significantly more time/energy. It can be fulfilling and rewarding, but perhaps sometimes exhausting. If so, how to reset? How to find balance? And, perhaps a more general question--one appropriate for all religious people: Should practicing faith be hard? Of course there are trying experiences, but I refer to the day-to-day. Should the regular practice of devotion to God be difficult?

Church meetings can be difficult and sometimes uninspiring. When we held our 3-hour meetings on Sunday, I once explained that the Sacrament meeting was the highlight of the day. It would then drop considerably in Sunday School and Priesthood meetings were a complete waste of time, but I would give my ward an A for effort even though the result is the same. Now I know of people who claim that 'you get out of the meetings what you put into it', but I think that misses the mark. I can't put anything that I have into these other meetings. I read the lesson and come prepared and then the teacher teaches a different lesson because he claims that that's what the spirit led him to do. That might be true, but I have trouble following that. Or you offer a comment and it goes completely over the teacher's head, they say "uh huh" and then continue on with their lesson and not with a discussion. So these later meetings frustrate me. I feel far more uplifted in smaller intimate meetings that are of a personal nature. In fact, all my personal study and personal service is uplifting and regenerating. I can't seem to bring that into a class setting.

Yes. Scripture study and daily prayer is a discipline that has to be monitored and maintained or we'll stop doing it, but it is these personal studies that recharge my batteries and personal one-on-one discussions with friends and family and service of any kind church or not. The spiritual drain comes from hostile interface, sometimes on the internet, sometimes in church, sometimes at home. I need the personal time to keep going.

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