The timing of truth


askandanswer
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Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

The Lord delivers truths when he sees fit, and his children obey or disobey as they see fit. As long as they are disobedient, they cannot and do not receive the blessings the Lord would give them. Joseph would doubtless have been better off worrying less about what other men, or even his wife, would think about plural marriage, and worrying more instead about how to obey God's commandments.

Of course, that's easy for me to say. But it's still true.

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What happened with Joseph and plural marriage seems to contrast with what happened with Moses and the Israelites when God took back the higher law because He saw that the people were unprepared to live it, and substituted it with a lesser law. I also remember it being taught from time to time that God will not give us a higher law until He sees that we are currently living the law He has already given us. 

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15 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

I would say, "No." When the Lord commands that is always the perfect time, whether or not we hearken or listen to is a matter of our personal faith and faithfulness.

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19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

To be fair, Joseph did try right away, and it turned out to be a disaster, which is probably why he put it off as long as he possibly could.

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On 3/11/2020 at 11:29 PM, askandanswer said:

Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

Are there other examples of the Lord revealing a truth or principle before his children were
ready to accept and practice?

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1 minute ago, Jonah said:

Are there other examples of the Lord revealing a truth or principle before his children were
ready to accept and practice?

Always around to peck at the edges, aren't you, Jonah?

As a Catholic, you claim to believe in the Bible. Go read Exodus, then return here and tell us if the Lord revealed any truths or principles before his children were ready to accept and practice them.

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On 3/12/2020 at 12:11 PM, askandanswer said:

What happened with Joseph and plural marriage seems to contrast with what happened with Moses and the Israelites when God took back the higher law because He saw that the people were unprepared to live it, and substituted it with a lesser law. I also remember it being taught from time to time that God will not give us a higher law until He sees that we are currently living the law He has already given us. 

This assumes that plural marriage is a "higher" law than the monogamous marriages we observe today.  I see it as simply "different".  Not higher.  Not lower.  The Lord would PREFER to have monogamous marriages.  But only command when there is a specific exception that He knows is applicable.  (See Jacob 2.)  So, it would be more plausible to consider monogamous marriage as a higher law -- if one were to compare.

Consider this:  Is there any commandment that people don't break?  Only the really serious ones do average people not break on an almost daily basis.  I think a large percentage of people get out of this life without ever having murdered anyone, for example.  Does that mean that the Lord should take away the commandment to stop coveting?  Bearing false witness?  Worshiping the temporal gods that we see in modern culture?  Disrespect our parents? (Who here was never an angry teenager?).

So, should the Lord take away all those commandments because we're not ready for such a law?  How many so called faithful members of the Church drink their occasional beer or wine?  I've, unfortunately, come across far too many.  So, why not remove that covenant since that isn't even an eternal commandment, as it appears to only be for this dispensation anyway.  And a LOT of people have a problem with it.

Edited by Vernor's Ginger Ale
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Guest Scott
16 minutes ago, Jonah said:

Are there other examples of the Lord revealing a truth or principle before his children were
ready to accept and practice?

This has happened throughout history.

What happened to the original comandments Moses brought down from Sinai?

How many people weren't ready to listen to Jesus and the apostles?

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I have pondered polygamy.  It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that polygamy in the church did not work out.  Why?????

Here is my opinion - for what opinions are worth.  Isaiah tells us that things are revealed line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  So it is my opinion that there were some that took the precept of polygamy, and were ready for the next precept concerning polygamy.  However, the members of the Church as a whole were at odds with each other from the very onset.  Even Joseph Smith was at odds with himself and his wife Emma.  Indeed polygamy became like a pruning of a vineyard.  I would like to point to that time of confusion but I must admit that I am no more ready to understand the lines or principles than those that failed the test then.  I can speculate and I have but as much as there is speculation it does appear to me that the women were and are more prepared than the men.  But that the greatest excuse for the men is concern for the women.

 

The Traveler

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On 3/21/2020 at 4:27 AM, Vernor's Ginger Ale said:

Consider this:  Is there any commandment that people don't break?  Only the really serious ones do average people not break on an almost daily basis.  I think a large percentage of people get out of this life without ever having murdered anyone, for example.  Does that mean that the Lord should take away the commandment to stop coveting?  Bearing false witness?  Worshiping the temporal gods that we see in modern culture?  Disrespect our parents? (Who here was never an angry teenager?).

So, should the Lord take away all those commandments because we're not ready for such a law?  How many so called faithful members of the Church drink their occasional beer or wine?  I've, unfortunately, come across far too many.  So, why not remove that covenant since that isn't even an eternal commandment, as it appears to only be for this dispensation anyway.  And a LOT of people have a problem with it.

 

On 3/21/2020 at 4:27 AM, Scott said:

This has happened throughout history.

What happened to the original comandments Moses brought down from Sinai?

How many people weren't ready to listen to Jesus and the apostles?

So are you saying that the Lord sometimes reveals truth before people are ready to accept and practice and live it?

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On 3/11/2020 at 8:29 PM, askandanswer said:

Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

The moment God reveals a truth we become accountable for it but that doesn't mean God isn't willing to be merciful in our attempts or even hesitancy to act on it. From the get go of the Restoration God's purpose was to establish Zion, a community of people living the Celestial law. Obviously the people weren't able or willing to live the whole law and consequently God not rescinded so much as granted us a probationary time to prepare to live the whole law. I think polygamy was intended to be a catalyst to speed up the process of building a Zion community and that it worked beautifully where the people were truly of one heart and one mind. 

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On 3/11/2020 at 8:29 PM, askandanswer said:

Does the length of time between when Joseph Smith was first taught the principle of plural marriage, and the date when he actually started practising it, his hesitancy to start practicing it, and the encouragement he needed from the angel suggest that this was an occasion when the Lord revealed a truth before His children were ready to accept and practice it?

No. Joseph had no problem with it. His reluctance had nothing to do with him not being ready. His reluctance was in his uncertainly of how others would receive it, the most significant of these was Emma who I am certain knew it was coming and made life a living hell for Joseph when he first employed it with Fanny Alger.

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On 3/21/2020 at 8:51 AM, Traveler said:

I have pondered polygamy.  It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that polygamy in the church did not work out.  Why?????

Here is my opinion - for what opinions are worth.  Isaiah tells us that things are revealed line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  So it is my opinion that there were some that took the precept of polygamy, and were ready for the next precept concerning polygamy.  However, the members of the Church as a whole were at odds with each other from the very onset.  Even Joseph Smith was at odds with himself and his wife Emma.  Indeed polygamy became like a pruning of a vineyard.  I would like to point to that time of confusion but I must admit that I am no more ready to understand the lines or principles than those that failed the test then.  I can speculate and I have but as much as there is speculation it does appear to me that the women were and are more prepared than the men.  But that the greatest excuse for the men is concern for the women.

 

The Traveler

Well, IMO, polygamy worked exactly as expected and was a huge success. I'm glad the live practice of it has ended. I do not believe it will need to be reinstated. Now, about a 100 years later, the pendulum has swung the other direction with wives committing there husbands not to marry again. That is unbelievably selfish. Especially with the constant nagging about it when neither spouse is anywhere near death.

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6 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Well, IMO, polygamy worked exactly as expected and was a huge success. I'm glad the live practice of it has ended. I do not believe it will need to be reinstated. Now, about a 100 years later, the pendulum has swung the other direction with wives committing there husbands not to marry again. That is unbelievably selfish. Especially with the constant nagging about it when neither spouse is anywhere near death.

My polygamists great grandfather wrote in his journal that too many members were committing sin by their polygamists marriages and that they and the church would come under great condemnation for it. 

 

The Traveler

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I think polygamy is an interesting topic in many respects.

Brian and Laura Hales have recently published an excellent, in-depth study of the history and doctrine surrounding this topic:

Joseph Smith's Polygamy: Toward a Better Understanding
https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smiths-Polygamy-Toward-Understanding/dp/1589587235

If you want a lot more detail, they have an additional 3-volume series as well.

Addressing the OP, if I remember correctly, the Hales' books would indicate the following:

  • The popular idea that polygamy is a higher law that we all would ideally be following is not necessarily doctrine.
  • Joseph Smith did indeed resist the commandment to him and obey it with great reluctance. This was partly because of his concern about how Emma would react. (His worries were confirmed :D )
  • Joseph Smith submitted to polygamy out of obedience.
  • Polygamy was very difficult to live. (It was not some sort of sex party, as some people with more lurid imaginations have assumed.)
  • We don't know all the reasons for why polygamy was instituted in the church (although the Hales' books do examine these questions in depth).

My personal take-away from reading these books is that polygamy was given by the Lord to early modern church leaders as a lesson and challenge in obedience. (Only a minority of LDS practiced polygamy in the 1800s.) We don't know all the why's about it. The Lord's mind and ways are not our own. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are my ways higher than your ways, And my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9).

Brigham Young did supposedly make a lot of statements saying polygamy was a higher law. However, I always chuckle at this quote supposedly from him:

"The introduction of the doctrine of polygamy was the first time in my life that I desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation." -- Brigham Young

 

Of course the go-to place to begin to understand this is the church's official Gospel Topics Essay:

Plural Marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

 

 

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Guest Scott
On 3/21/2020 at 3:37 PM, askandanswer said:

 

So are you saying that the Lord sometimes reveals truth before people are ready to accept and practice and live it?

Yes, but it's not the Lord's responsibility to make sure we are ready; it is ours.

For the second coming, for example, He isn't going to wait until everyone is ready for it.  He will come regardless if we are ready or not.

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On 3/20/2020 at 1:27 PM, Scott said:

This has happened throughout history.

What happened to the original comandments Moses brought down from Sinai?

How many people weren't ready to listen to Jesus and the apostles?

From a biblical perspective, they did not listen to what was commanded of them.

But I was wondering if there are LDS-only truths or principles revealed to the Latter-day Saints (not
mentioned in the Bible or Book of Mormon) before they (the Latter-day Saints) were ready to accept
and practice them?

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Guest Scott
59 minutes ago, Jonah said:

From a biblical perspective, they did not listen to what was commanded of them.

But I was wondering if there are LDS-only truths or principles revealed to the Latter-day Saints (not
mentioned in the Bible or Book of Mormon) before they (the Latter-day Saints) were ready to accept
and practice them?

How are the two different?  They are the same thing.

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Yes, but it's not the Lord's responsibility to make sure we are ready; it is ours.

For the second coming, for example, He isn't going to wait until everyone is ready for it.  He will come regardless if we are ready or not.

I cannot say for sure that I disagree - but I think my outlook and understanding has a different focus.  For example, I believe that G-d and his children knew the beginning to the end concerning the plan of salvation.  I believe in agency and that we all invested in the Plan of Salvation based with full understanding and knowledge of our roll - I cannot make sense of agency that comes from ignorance or any degree of deception.  As for preparations for the second coming - I believe that all things necessary and sufficient will be completely prepared - both in this mortal probation and in the spirit world.  I am sure the Saints of G-d will be prepared and ready.  I think the only confusion or unpreparedness will come from those that separate themselves from the Saints - emotionally (love), spiritually, economically or some other way.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Scott
2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am sure the Saints of G-d will be prepared and ready. 

 

We are told that the parable of the Ten Virgins refers to our church (as in active members, not excommunicated ones).  Half will be ready and half will not (though we don't know if half is literal).

Here are the things that our Church leaders have said about being ready:

The final thing that we are to do is to be able and willing to consecrate all that we have to the building up of the kingdom of God, to care for our fellow men. When we do this we’ll be ready for the coming of the Messiah.-Marion G Romney

Also Joseph Smith said that one of the requirements for being ready for the second coming is living the United Order.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0yEsAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=times+and+seasons+volume+5&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioq-juqsDoAhXDi54KHWXEDh8Q6AEwAHoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=times and seasons volume 5&f=false

Do you really think that most members of the Church are prepared and ready to live the United Order?   I certinaly don't (I can't say I am either).   If we were, we'd be living it already.

Of course that is only one requirement of being ready for the Second Coming.   There are many.

Whether we are ready for it or not though, the Lord will come.   He isn't going to refrain from coming just because we aren't ready for it.  All the signs must happen before his coming, but having church members being prepared isn't one of them.   Some will be, a lot won't.  

Edited by Scott
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1 hour ago, Scott said:

 

We are told that the parable of the Ten Virgins refers to our church (as in active members, not excommunicated ones).  Half will be ready and half will not (though we don't know if half is literal).

Here are the things that our Church leaders have said about being ready:

The final thing that we are to do is to be able and willing to consecrate all that we have to the building up of the kingdom of God, to care for our fellow men. When we do this we’ll be ready for the coming of the Messiah.-Marion G Romney

Also Joseph Smith said that one of the requirements for being ready for the second coming is living the United Order.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0yEsAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=times+and+seasons+volume+5&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioq-juqsDoAhXDi54KHWXEDh8Q6AEwAHoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=times and seasons volume 5&f=false

Do you really think that most members of the Church are prepared and ready to live the United Order?   I certinaly don't (I can't say I am either).   If we were, we'd be living it already.

Of course that is only one requirement of being ready for the Second Coming.   There are many.

Whether we are ready for it or not though, the Lord will come.   He isn't going to refrain from coming just because we aren't ready for it.  All the signs must happen before his coming, but having church members being prepared isn't one of them.   Some will be, a lot won't.  

I don't know where I heard this, but the principles of the United Order seem to change over time. They change to meet the capacity of the Saints. God will never give us a commandment that we cannot follow and right now, having everything in common is not something we can live. However, we can live the principles of the United Order. Now if you are referring to those who can't accept King Benjamin's description of the United Order, then yes, There are a lot of people who aren't prepared. Note, we are not "required" to live it, but we should be prepared to live it, namely in that all things that the Lord has given us are the Lord's and we only have stewardship over it, not ownership. That is the problem that left the saints condemned in Kirkland. Everyone believes they have a right to make a profit, but in the circumstances of those early days and in the circumstances today, that profit should not be packed with greed. Land speculation was only one problem. There were many, but basically it was a situation where those who had took advantage of those who had not. That is not united.

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2 hours ago, Scott said:

 

We are told that the parable of the Ten Virgins refers to our church (as in active members, not excommunicated ones).  Half will be ready and half will not (though we don't know if half is literal).

Here are the things that our Church leaders have said about being ready:

The final thing that we are to do is to be able and willing to consecrate all that we have to the building up of the kingdom of God, to care for our fellow men. When we do this we’ll be ready for the coming of the Messiah.-Marion G Romney

Also Joseph Smith said that one of the requirements for being ready for the second coming is living the United Order.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0yEsAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=times+and+seasons+volume+5&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioq-juqsDoAhXDi54KHWXEDh8Q6AEwAHoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=times and seasons volume 5&f=false

Do you really think that most members of the Church are prepared and ready to live the United Order?   I certinaly don't (I can't say I am either).   If we were, we'd be living it already.

Of course that is only one requirement of being ready for the Second Coming.   There are many.

Whether we are ready for it or not though, the Lord will come.   He isn't going to refrain from coming just because we aren't ready for it.  All the signs must happen before his coming, but having church members being prepared isn't one of them.   Some will be, a lot won't.  

From time to time I have looked back through the rear view mirror of life and pondered how ready I was for important things.  I could give several examples but I will use the example of my mission.  I had looked forward and prepared for my mission from my youth.  I had worked and saved to pay for my mission.  When I served there were 6 discussions - I had committed all of them to memory more than a year before my mission call.  There were 250 basic scriptures - I memorized all those as well.  I came of age for my mission at the height of the Vietnam conflict and spent 2 years in the army to insure I could serve a mission and while serving in the military - I assisted (with the spirit) of bringing over 2 dozen converts.  I believed I was ready.

I was not ready to be arrested by the FBI as the prime suspect in a murder - in my first area.  I was not prepared for poor leadership among the missionaries.  I was not prepared for missionaries that would rather be home than on their mission.  I was not prepared for a convert that would lie about their belief so they could be baptized for the primary purpose to defraud and rob a wealthy member.  I was not prepared to interview converts for baptism - in particular my first such interview with a young teenage girl that thought she was sexually impure and unworthy for baptism because she has kissed a guy.  And I was most unprepared for a homosexual struggling to repent and change their heart.   I could list many more.  But with all this and those I taught on my mission - I was astonished how quickly the spirit could turn a heart to repentance and prepare someone for baptism.

I believe every person alive today has all they need to be able to repent and accept the Savior when he returns - even if it is tomorrow.  However, it is my prejudice that those that think in their pride that (like me when I received my mission call) that they are prepared - are likely to be surprised and struggle wondering how they could have not prepared - like the 10 virgins without oil.  And that those what when Jesus returns fall at his feet and plead for forgiveness of all their failings and beg for mercy - are likely to be the most ready.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Scott
1 hour ago, brotherofJared said:

I don't know where I heard this, but the principles of the United Order seem to change over time.

Joseph Smith disagreed (read the link I provided).  The order is a lot older than Joseph Smith as well.   It dates back to at least Enoch (Moses 7) and is in the Book of Mormon (4 Nephi 1).

Quote

They change to meet the capacity of the Saints.

Commandments or counsel are modified with the times because people follow them in different degrees through time, not because the principles change.

Sometimes they become less stringent and sometimes more.   An example is the Word of Wisdom.  It used to be more of a cousel than a commandment that keeps you from having a temple recommend.

The Word of Wisdom was reveled in 1833.    Church members were counselled to follow it.  After 1921 it became a commandment and a requirement for a temple recommend.  That doesn't mean the principle changed. 

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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

My polygamists great grandfather wrote in his journal that too many members were committing sin by their polygamists marriages and that they and the church would come under great condemnation for it. 

 

The Traveler

That's pretty vague. I'm not sure how you're applying that to the purposes that were served by polygamy.

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