Fether

Sacrament at home Q

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Since church was canceled, we started meeting with a few friends from another ward to do Sunday school together. Last week both we and them were given permission to do sacrament at home.

Would it be appropriate to do the sacrament together prior to our Sunday school lesson even though we are in separate wards?

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

Since church was canceled, we started meeting with a few friends from another ward to do Sunday school together. Last week both we and them were given permission to do sacrament at home.

Would it be appropriate to do the sacrament together prior to our Sunday school lesson even though we are in separate wards?

As long as both your bishops have given you permission I don't see a problem, go for it.

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3 hours ago, Fether said:

Since church was canceled, we started meeting with a few friends from another ward to do Sunday school together. Last week both we and them were given permission to do sacrament at home.

Would it be appropriate to do the sacrament together prior to our Sunday school lesson even though we are in separate wards?

This is what I been saying years ago about why hometeaching numbers were low. Assigned friendships dont work. This new named "ministering" program is still an assignment. 

@Fether you are doing something that is genuine and real...hanging out with member friends that you WANT to and not ASSIGNED to visit with. This is TRUE support and ministering. I believe ward boundaries limit some aspects of our worship culture, and in some ways hindering the work. The internet and social media is slowly changing this. 

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According to the information we received from our area presidency this would not be OK; however, if you have received different instruction from stake presidency and area presidency then I would follow that.

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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

According to the information we received from our area presidency this would not be OK; however, if you have received different instruction from stake presidency and area presidency then I would follow that.

My dad, who is planning on being at this Sunday school, was given instruction to do the sacrament only at home and in the time frame of when his ward typically met. The rest of us were given just basic permission to do it.

 But should someone outside of his ward bless the sacrament under separate instruction and pass it to him, would that be appropriate? My mind naturally navigates to “of course it is appropriate, why wouldn’t it be?” But it just feels off to have 4 different families from separate areas to stewardship.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

My dad, who is planning on being at this Sunday school, was given instruction to do the sacrament only at home and in the time frame of when his ward typically met. The rest of us were given just basic permission to do it.

 But should someone outside of his ward bless the sacrament under separate instruction and pass it to him, would that be appropriate? My mind naturally navigates to “of course it is appropriate, why wouldn’t it be?” But it just feels off to have 4 different families from separate areas to stewardship.

That is a good question, which I feel my previous response answers. I personally wouldn't have any issue with the idea; however, we were given additional counsel last week that would negate this happening and it being OK.

This is why I was trying to get across that if you have received different instruction then follow the instruction received.

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12 hours ago, Fether said:

Since church was canceled, we started meeting with a few friends from another ward to do Sunday school together. Last week both we and them were given permission to do sacrament at home.

Would it be appropriate to do the sacrament together prior to our Sunday school lesson even though we are in separate wards?

As I understand it, a home sacrament needs to be authorized by the bishop of the ward in whose boundaries the sacrament is performed.

I would interpret that as meaning that if you, me, @priesthoodpower, and @Anddenex got together at your house, and your bishop had previously authorized a home sacrament service—you could officiate, and we could all partake.  But neither I nor @priesthoodpower nor @Anddenex should be officiating in a sacrament meeting within your ward boundaries unless your bishop has explicitly authorized it.  We don’t have the keys required to go blessing sacraments all willy-nilly.

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31 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As I understand it, a home sacrament needs to be authorized by the bishop of the ward in whose boundaries the sacrament is performed.

I would interpret that as meaning that if you, me, @priesthoodpower, and @Anddenex got together at your house, and your bishop had previously authorized a home sacrament service—you could officiate, and we could all partake.  But neither I nor @priesthoodpower nor @Anddenex should be officiating in a sacrament meeting within your ward boundaries unless your bishop has explicitly authorized it.  We don’t have the keys required to go blessing sacraments all willy-nilly.

I think this is why I am trying to say that people should follow the counsel provided by "key" leadership. The example of me going to a friends house wouldn't be authorized according to given instruction.

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In our ward, we're not supposed to visit other ward families (both inside and outside our own ward) unless they don't have a priesthood member in the house.  

All ordained priesthood members who have been ordained to do so have been authorized to bless and pass the sacrament to their own families.

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https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/18-priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng#title_number28

Quote

Approval to Administer the Sacrament

The bishop holds the priesthood keys for administering the sacrament in the ward. All who participate in preparing, blessing, and passing the sacrament must receive approval from him or someone under his direction.

If members of his ward are unable to partake of the sacrament because they are confined to a home, care center, or hospital, the bishop may authorize priesthood holders to administer the sacrament to them. He may authorize this even if they are temporarily outside his ward boundaries. However, he may not authorize the sacrament to be given to members outside his ward boundaries in other circumstances.

 

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Just spoke to a family member today. Their stake just barely authorized its members to do sacrament at home. They were surprised to hear we had been doing it all along. They also have no plan as to how to make the sacrament available to the no. Priesthood households and elderly. As of now they want to send the priests to do it inside the  members homes.  Interesting how just a few miles apart, stakes under the same area authority can operate so differently. 

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On 3/21/2020 at 10:29 PM, priesthoodpower said:

This is what I been saying years ago about why hometeaching numbers were low. Assigned friendships dont work. This new named "ministering" program is still an assignment. 

@Fether you are doing something that is genuine and real...hanging out with member friends that you WANT to and not ASSIGNED to visit with. This is TRUE support and ministering. I believe ward boundaries limit some aspects of our worship culture, and in some ways hindering the work. The internet and social media is slowly changing this. 

Nothing is stopping u from ministering to anyone u want to. The reason for assignments is to reach those who have no friends in the church. Assignments work.

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On 3/22/2020 at 7:56 AM, Anddenex said:

I think this is why I am trying to say that people should follow the counsel provided by "key" leadership. The example of me going to a friends house wouldn't be authorized according to given instruction.

I agree. Authorized to administer the sacrament must be done in the Lord's way or it is just bread and water. But ministering to anyone in need is a no brainer.

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Just now, brotherofJared said:

I agree. Authorized to administer the sacrament must be done in the Lord's way or it is just bread and water. But ministering to anyone in need is a no brainer.

That being said, we still need assignments to avoid chaos. There is a reporting structure with assignments.

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But I also agree that assigning ministers is not done very well. Those who do the assignments are not being smart. On day one, I was assigned 20 families. 3 months later, I was assigned 5 and none of them were on my first list. Now it changes without notice and I have only had one interview. 

It probably doesn't help that my presidency has been turned over 6 times since that change.

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My daughter is living on campus about 4 hours away. Since church at home started, she's been visiting an elderly couple who live near the chapel and being having church at home and the sacrament with them. I was surprised to hear from her a few days ago that the Stake Presidency have sent out an email stating that if you don't have a Priesthood holder in your room, you won't be able to have the Sacrament. She called the Relief Society President to confirm if she had understood the email correctly and it turns out that she had. Is something similar happening in your stake - No priesthood holder at home = no sacrament period. 

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I feel the need to share my recent experience with this.

I've been asked to administer the sacrament to all my ministering families.  But all of them are inactive.  I was only able to get one of them on the phone -- once.

I've also been asked to administer the sacrament to another member of the ward who lives not far from me.  She is a working widow who still have adult dependents.  By adult dependents, I mean in their 30s or 40s.  And she supports all of her grandchildren.  I say this to point out that she's got family issues and problems that she always has difficulty dealing with.

My sons make up about half of the active Aaronic priesthood, so we're the primary contact for administering to the bed-ridden individuals in the ward.  We're "sacrament in a box".  Deacon, teacher, priest. 

In our stake, we've been told that our meetings at home need to mimic the full meeting as much as possible.  We don't simply prepare, bless, and pass.  We have an opening song, prayer, little message... all the way to closing song and closing prayer. So, to have a high priest as a proxy for the Bishop is appropriate.  When my Priest offers the prayer/blessing, he looks to me for verification that the prayer was said properly.  We also shared a message and sang songs... while the dogs were barking.

The sister that we served had a daughter and granddaughter who are baptized.  They joined us.  The daughter is not really active.  The granddaughter is.  The daughter actually surreptitiously got rid of a cigarette before joining us.  Given the circumstances, I couldn't deny the sacrament to her.

I have considered since then, why she rushed over for the sacrament when she hasn't been active for a while.  But maybe this crisis is what has gotten her to re-evaluate her life.

As we finished up, the sister kept wanting to prolong the conversation.  It began to feel like a ministering visit (even though I was not her assigned minister).  So, I listened.  I really listened.  I truly admire the strength of this woman.  She has such issues that remind me that I have nothing to complain about.  Yet she seems to be shouldering it all.  I just want to pray for her 100 times a day.

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4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

My daughter is living on campus about 4 hours away. Since church at home started, she's been visiting an elderly couple who live near the chapel and being having church at home and the sacrament with them. I was surprised to hear from her a few days ago that the Stake Presidency have sent out an email stating that if you don't have a Priesthood holder in your room, you won't be able to have the Sacrament. She called the Relief Society President to confirm if she had understood the email correctly and it turns out that she had. Is something similar happening in your stake - No priesthood holder at home = no sacrament period. 

Wow. No, quite the opposite. Our leadership (bishop and stake president) have made it clear that we are to minister to those in our care, including by administering the sacrament.

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This came on Mar 28th from my EQP, who got it from Elder Jones our area Seventy, specifically regarding Colorado.

Quote

Elders Jones and Priday,

 
After further discussion and counsel, as an Area Presidency we feel that we should ask members to not administer the sacrament in others’ homes. Visiting another home to administer the sacrament might be misunderstood and construed as violating the Colorado Governor’s order. Please understand that this would not limit a priesthood holder from administering the sacrament, as directed by their Bishop, within their own home. We will revisit this decision over the next couple of weeks.
 
If you have any further questions, please communicate with your first contact in the Area.
 
The North America Area Presidency

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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On 3/21/2020 at 11:29 PM, priesthoodpower said:

This is what I been saying years ago about why hometeaching numbers were low. Assigned friendships dont work. This new named "ministering" program is still an assignment. 

@Fether you are doing something that is genuine and real...hanging out with member friends that you WANT to and not ASSIGNED to visit with. This is TRUE support and ministering. I believe ward boundaries limit some aspects of our worship culture, and in some ways hindering the work. The internet and social media is slowly changing this. 

I am of a slightly different opinion.  There are no restrictions in visiting, helping, fellow-shipping friends and there never has been.  I believe that the primary reason that there are callings within the church is because most members will not do many things they should unless they are specifically "called" to do so.  Even with a calling some will complain, resist and make up excuses for their spiritual failures.  The real reason home teaching numbers were low is a lack of love and faith in Christ.  And the only reason numbers existed and were counted was a effort to draw priesthood holders closer to the understanding of their stewardship.  One thing I learned in the military was to leave no one behind.

 

The Traveler

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Something that was done in the military and that my Son-in-Law has observed has been twofold.

The first, when one went off in the military at times, sometimes they were given the ability to perform the ordinance of the sacrament on their own in the absence of other priesthood authority, especially when deployed to the field or on the lines of combat.

In other places and times, my Son In Law remarked when they were not allowed to go out, the chapels would have pre-blessed bread and water that they could partake of for the sacrament.  The cups were covered in a little tinfoil cover and the bread had some sort of covering which you would lift to take it as well.  You did not bless it as it was pre-blessed.  I can't recall the exact situation where he experienced this, but it was something they had in the military chapels available (or areas in the place they were that was used as a chapel).

It strikes me that this pre-blessing of the sacrament could be done and dropped off at the doorsteps of members who called or texted or emailed their desire for it.  This would allow them to have the sacrament but without the contact of people actively there.  It was done in the military, but I could see an application of it done in the current situation for those who are under stay and home and isolation orders.

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3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Something that was done in the military my Son In Law remarked when they were not allowed to go out, the chapels would have pre-blessed bread and water that they could partake of for the sacrament.  The cups were covered in a little tinfoil cover and the bread had some sort of covering which you would lift to take it as well.  You did not bless it as it was pre-blessed.

[...]

It strikes me that this pre-blessing of the sacrament could be done and dropped off at the doorsteps of members who called or texted or emailed their desire for it.

Sounds to me like holy water, a disaster in the making. I wonder if your son-in-law misunderstood. I cannot imagine a General Authority ever approving such a thing.

The emblems of the sacrament are not magical talismans. They are elements of an ordinance. Such things are not like stocking potatoes at a grocery store.

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

Sounds to me like holy water, a disaster in the making. I wonder if your son-in-law misunderstood. I cannot imagine a General Authority ever approving such a thing.

The emblems of the sacrament are not magical talismans. They are elements of an ordinance. Such things are not like stocking potatoes at a grocery store.

Editing it down a tad.

No, I'm pretty certain he didn't.  I trust him and what he said.  In addition I DID see/can witness of evidence of this to a small degree in action though not every incident of it he experienced.

I do not know what approvals or anything else that was done at the time, only that this was done for him in his unit (he was not the only member of a couple hundred out there, but only he and two or three others actually tried to obtain the sacrament and other items of worship during the deployment).

I do not see it in the Handbooks, so I don't know all that went into it. 

I DID get to see this in action, or at least partially.  He had gone to a tech school or boot camp or some sort of training.  In our brief tour (and I mean brief) I saw the chapel where this was set out.  I saw the water tray at least (but can't recall about the bread tray).  I can say I personally saw evidence of what he said occurred...at least in part.

Once again, I'm not sure of all the approvals that went with it.  It is probable that it went higher than the person who set the sacrament aside at the time and it was authorized by someone much higher in the church.  The one at his schools was probably somewhere around 18-20 years ago.

Edited by JohnsonJones
Editing it down to reflect what I can personally vouch for rather than just rely on what I remember he said

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Editing it down a tad.

No, I'm pretty certain he didn't.  I trust him and what he said.  In addition I DID see/can witness of evidence of this to a small degree in action though not every incident of it he experienced.

I do not know what approvals or anything else that was done at the time, only that this was done for him in his unit (he was not the only member of a couple hundred out there, but only he and two or three others actually tried to obtain the sacrament and other items of worship during the deployment).

I do not see it in the Handbooks, so I don't know all that went into it. 

I DID get to see this in action, or at least partially.  He had gone to a tech school or boot camp or some sort of training.  In our brief tour (and I mean brief) I saw the chapel where this was set out.  I saw the water tray at least (but can't recall about the bread tray).  I can say I personally saw evidence of what he said occurred...at least in part.

Once again, I'm not sure of all the approvals that went with it.  It is probable that it went higher than the person who set the sacrament aside at the time and it was authorized by someone much higher in the church.  The one at his schools was probably somewhere around 18-20 years ago.

For me it was over 50 years ago that I was in the military.  I cannot speak to what happens currently but I recall special garments were were approved only for the military.  The difference was that they were the olive green color.  We only had a few LDS Chaplains and it seemed they had unusual authority to approve unusual things about meetings and sacrament.    However, if I recall correctly some non-LDS chaplains thought that they could approve everything the LDS chaplains could.  As a result once in a while really strange things would end up occurring.  One little thing I will pass on - there was a lot for prejudice towards LDS.   I recall one fellow that was an ordained minister and was very much into the anti-LDS stuff.  He and I had some very rough times.  But it all changed suddenly when he showed up (with several others) asking for a priesthood blessing.

 

The Traveler

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