Health Care Solutions

[Traveler]

We are told in modern scripture that governments are instituted by G-d and that we (Latter-day Saints) are obligated by covenant to be subject both the laws and those that govern.  We can argue all we want about governments but in essence all government is socialized to one degree or another.  To be void of socialized order is anarchy.   However, we are also told in scripture that those that are involved in governments are under obligation before G-d to uphold the principles of the freedoms and liberties of the people.

But to answer @anatess2 I have lived by gathering my own food.  Eating grubs, insects, worms roots and killing and eating whatever the desert would provide.  No one has to die because they cannot purchase food.  Strangely enough - I personally believe that most people in our society would be healthier if the did live off the land for a month or two sometime in their life.  I have grandkids so removed from producing food for themselves that they will refuse to eat healthy good food just because they are picky - sometimes so picky they will not even try to eat certain types of healthy foods. 

I also understand that a great many things will be a lot better when Christ returns.  What I am suggesting is that there is a way to improve our current condition - specifically our health care.  But in order for there to be a change - I believe we need a paradigm shift in our thinking.  It has taken me a year talking to my brother to go through my paradigm shift.  I had thought many on this forum would be smarter that me and come around a lot quicker.  I am mostly a free market guy.  I have seen our government screw up our healthcare big time.  And yet our health care has progressed - dare I say exponentially - in what can be done over my lifetime.  My grandfather went blind for a genetic condition that causes macular degeneration/holes.  Fifteen years ago I would have gone blind as well but because of recent advancements and procedures  80% of my sight has been recovered or restored - likely for the rest of my life.

The main problem with our current health care system is who has access and how it is paid for.  But let me make it easy for everyone to understand my position.  The wealthy class has always been able to purchase healthcare - I really do not worry or think about them.  They will get whatever they want - especially from a free market.  I am focused on the middle class.  As much as people tout free markets - the primary reason I like free markets because I believe it is the best opportunity (in most cases) for a middle class to obtain what the middle class needs to continue and prosper.  I believe that the greatest obligation of government is to preserve the middle class and their rights, liberties and freedom.  I believe that the best for all classes is when the middle class is prosperous.   So when our government considers a law - I ask my self the question -- "Does this help the middle class - or will it hurt the middle class in the long run?"  As bat as it may seem - I believe if a program helps the poor but destroys the middle class - that in the long run the poor will eventually be worse off for it.  So my test of things is what will happen to the middle class?

If the middle class is harmed by a free market health care system - we should dump that system because eventually such society will fail -- perhaps through civil war but it will fall.   I believe if a king took care of the middle class - that kingdom would thrive.  

Our current health care is destroying the middle class.  The socialized changes being proposed (mostly by "Liberals") I believe will diminish our middle class.  Like everybody - I have my own middle class nightmare stories of how our health care is strangling and wreaking our middle class.   Some say insurance is the problem - but even if you have great insurance - we still have great problems with specialized care and hospitals.  The current COVID 19 problem (short supplies) is proof of that.  I believe we must change the system - and very soon.  But like the recent economic relief - if everybody is more concerned about their political agenda than addressing current failures and problems - it will not matter what we try - it will fail.  

Can we agree that health care professionals should be regulated?

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

40 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

On topic, whatever is done, I hope that something can be done that truly IS useful in bringing down the prices of insurance and healthcare costs as well as making it easier and more available to all.  One should not have to fear bankruptcy from a major illness or ailment.

Why not?...  For just about all of human history people feared major illness or ailment... because it would kill them.  Now it oh no my bank account is empty...  Don't get me wrong its not a good thing... but people need some serious perspective to understand just how good we have it.  Not only on how good we have it but how we got here so that we can make wise choices to kept things trending in that same direction.

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Why not?...  For just about all of human history people feared major illness or ailment... because it would kill them.  Now it oh no my bank account is empty...  Don't get me wrong its not a good thing... but people need some serious perspective to understand just how good we have it.  Not only on how good we have it but how we got here so that we can make wise choices to kept things trending in that same direction.

 

 

I believe you are older, perhaps even around my age.  When we had kids we had no debt from it.  We were able to pay it right of out pocket. 

Today, I have a Son and Daughter-in-law that are still paying off their last child...11 years AFTER that child was born.

When my mother was in old age I was able to get her under my insurance which was stellar at the time.  I paid a steep price each month (to the tune of around 1K-2K a month, depending on which era of time it was, it got more expensive as time went along) but the insurance covered EVERYTHING and I didn't have a deductible.  It was, I believe, a platinum plan at the time.  It was done away with by Obama.

If I still lived back when I was a younger adult, or even still had my plan that I used to have, I'd have no worries.  Today, if I enter the hospital, only 80% of my cost is covered.  Luckily, there is only a $30 copay.  If I have a major ailment it could cost a million dollars or more.  That's still 200K I would owe.  No one should owe that type of money simply for getting sick.

We've never had that (in my lifetime that I can recall) where that was the only option open to people before 40 years ago (or thereabouts) when prices and insurance costs started skyrocketing.  Before that, if you wished to avoid the risk, you had the option to get insurance that would cover it...though at a high price. 

Affordable healthcare was not really something that came to the forefront prior to that point. 

For just about all of human history, if there were valid treatments that could help and were commonly available, people were normally able to get them without having to go to debtors prison.  People could normally get them without becoming slaves, or losing all that they had.  They may not have had the care available that we have today, but a Baby did not force people to lose everything simply because they had a baby.  That's ridiculous.

People would have a LOT more children decades ago...someone who tried that today either has all their healthcare paid by government (and I had a daughter and son-in-law who was in the military, the government paid for all their children to be born) OR...they would be in debt up to their ears (as at least one of my other kids are).

Why do we think people should not be able to afford to have children and to go bankrupt due to common maladies that have common treatments today?

Why is this suddenly acceptable today?

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Capitalism and the free market are truly one of the best inventions of man.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone showed up with some scriptural or prophetic quote from somewhere, pointing out that it's actually an invention of God.

I continue to have uncertain and mixed views on capitalism, although in general, I am more in favour of it than any of the alternatives. On the one hand, it seems as if a healthy capitalist system requires a fairly large dose of greed to function effectively, and this seems to put captialism in conflict with the idea taught in 1 Timothy 6:10 that the love of money is the root of all evil. On the other hand , capitalism, more so than any other system, enables an enormous freedom of choice, and God is strongly in favour of freedom of choice. I don't think that pure capitalism is the best system and I think its shortcomings can be improved with some degree of government intervention. I think there is lots of scope for discussion about the nature and degree of any such intervention. 

[askandanswer]

On 3/26/2020 at 1:48 AM, dprh said:

I've heard stories of two different people going to the same hospital for the same surgery in the same month and having vastly different total charges.  

In Australia this is a common outcome and there are two main reasons why. The first reason is whether you enter the hospital as a private patient or a public patient. Being a private patient means that you are privately insurered and that your health insurance will pay much,  but not all of your costs. The part that the health insurance won't pay can still be substantial, depending on the nature of the procedure and your level of cover. As a public patient, you won't pay anything. The reason why some people choose to go in as a private patient, despite the higher cost is that you have a much greater say over who your doctor will be and the timing of when the procedure will be performed. As a public patient, you just go on the waiting list and get assigned whatever doctor is available at  the time, whenever they become available. The second reason why there might be a huge price difference is your choice of doctor/surgeon. Two private patients can have the same procedure in the same hospital on the same day, but one patient might have chosen a surgeon who charges a high price and the second patient chose a surgeon who charges a lower price. It can make quite a difference. In my family, if ever one of us needs to have elective surgery, we always shop around and inquire about costs and charges first before deciding which medical specialist we will go to. 

[NeuroTypical]

13 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I continue to have uncertain and mixed views on capitalism, although in general, I am more in favour of it than any of the alternatives. On the one hand, it seems as if a healthy capitalist system requires a fairly large dose of greed to function effectively, and this seems to put captialism in conflict with the idea taught in 1 Timothy 6:10 that the love of money is the root of all evil. 

It helps if you take the word "greed", and replace it with the holy and approved phrase "self interest".   I've been a capitalist since the late '80's, and I've never loved money.  I've been tempted a time or two, but Timothy (and other sources) have forewarned me, so I didn't give in to temptation.

(It also helps if you don't fall for biased insulting words from people with agendas.  "Greed".  Heh.  That word, plus some alcohol, and you can have yourself a decent little proletariat uprising.)

Edited March 27, 2020 by NeuroTypical

[askandanswer]

On 3/26/2020 at 12:09 AM, estradling75 said:

Greed is always a safe answer as a reason but it is not a Solution.  With greed being the reason then the Solution is to use the Financial system designed and built around harnessing Human greed to productive ends.  The system whose fundamental check and balances are not being allow to come in and correct this problem.  If it could then this problem would have corrected itself already.  The system is Capitalism and check it uses is informed Consumer choice.

Don't believe me...  Then ask yourself (generic usage) when was the last time you made an informed choice for a medical process which included cost?  Not just "does my insurance cover it?"  Sadly medical care is usually a case were we need it now!!! No matter the cost.  In any other situation we would realize we are setting ourselves up to get gouged on the price, and we would need to slow down and check out other options.  But we ignore that wisdom in Healthcare and then we complain about the cost. 

I think that the experience my family and I have had over the last three months is a good illustration of making an informed health care choice, and also of how the government and the market can work together in a way that is beneficial to both consumers and providers.

A few days ago, my father transferred from a residential facility that provided temporary respite care to a residential facility that provides permanent, ongoing care. It took more tha 2 months of researching, visiting, questioning and comparing to find a facility that he and mum felt comfortable with. There are significant differences in the quality of care that the various facilities provide and the cost of that care, and there does not appear to be a close correlation between cost and quality. We were signficantly aided in our research by a government website which provides detailed audit reports of all accredited aged care facilities in the country. Every 4 years all accredited aged care facilities are audited against 43 indicators and the reports are placed online, along with generic information about each facility. So we have a free market of private providers each offering what they hope is a competitive product, and charging whatever they want, and a government providing objective and well-informed information about the quality of each product. This enables the consumer to make a much better informed choice, thereby aiding the operation of the market in a manner that benefits consumers. 

[askandanswer]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It helps if you take the word "greed", and replace it with the holy and approved phrase "self interest".   I've been a capitalist since the late '80's, and I've never loved money.  I've been tempted a time or two, but Timothy (and other sources) have forewarned me, so I didn't give in to temptation.

(It also helps if you don't fall for biased insulting words from people with agendas.  "Greed".  Heh.  That word, plus some alcohol, and you can have yourself a decent little proletariat uprising.)

There's always the risk that the line between self interest and selfishnes could become a little blurred at times and selfishness is condemend almost as much as greed. 

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

It helps if you take the word "greed", and replace it with the holy and approved phrase "self interest".   I've been a capitalist since the late '80's, and I've never loved money.  I've been tempted a time or two, but Timothy (and other sources) have forewarned me, so I didn't give in to temptation.

 

You can do even better then that.  Call it wise stewardship

[NeuroTypical]

 

54 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

There's always the risk that the line between self interest and selfishnes could become a little blurred at times and selfishness is condemend almost as much as greed. 

Very true.  And if anyone is trying to sell the notion that selfishness is absent in socialism (or any other alternative to capitalism), they're probably doing it out of some selfish reason.

Bernie Sanders' homes:

 - this one is on a lake!

Edited March 27, 2020 by NeuroTypical

[estradling75]

51 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think that the experience my family and I have had over the last three months is a good illustration of making an informed health care choice, and also of how the government and the market can work together in a way that is beneficial to both consumers and providers.

A few days ago, my father transferred from a residential facility that provided temporary respite care to a residential facility that provides permanent, ongoing care. It took more tha 2 months of researching, visiting, questioning and comparing to find a facility that he and mum felt comfortable with. There are significant differences in the quality of care that the various facilities provide and the cost of that care, and there does not appear to be a close correlation between cost and quality. We were signficantly aided in our research by a government website which provides detailed audit reports of all accredited aged care facilities in the country. Every 4 years all accredited aged care facilities are audited against 43 indicators and the reports are placed online, along with generic information about each facility. So we have a free market of private providers each offering what they hope is a competitive product, and charging whatever they want, and a government providing objective and well-informed information about the quality of each product. This enables the consumer to make a much better informed choice, thereby aiding the operation of the market in a manner that benefits consumers. 

Indeed as a someone employed by a company that takes some of those measurement... I have no problem with idea of government providing solid information... Even with that my CEO often laments we could offer a much better set of measurement if the government would stop mandating mediocrity

[askandanswer]

7 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Even with that my CEO often laments we could offer a much better set of measurement if the government would stop mandating mediocrity

I totally agree. All too often, in its negotiations with multiple stakeholders about what the standards should be, government ends up going for the most easily achieved, least objectionable, politically safe standard. 

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I totally agree. All too often, in its negotiations with multiple stakeholders about what the standards should be, government ends up going for the most easily achieved, least objectionable, politically safe standard. 

Indeed.  Also note it is Government Control.   Like this

Location:  We want to accept Medicade/Medicare.

Government: Great in addition to all this Red Tape on getting the funds... we also are going to require you to find and pay for a qualified  surveyor to call and do a mandated interview with your clients.  And if you do not met a certain set of numbers we charge fees, reduce funding, or otherwise penalize you.