The gathering of Israel


Jonah
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What does the underlined statement mean exactly?  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2020/04/the-future-of-the-church-preparing-the-world-for-the-saviors-second-coming?lang=eng

"The Book of Mormon declares the doctrine of the gathering (see, for example, 1 Nephi 10:14). 
It causes people to learn about Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church. 
In fact, if there were no Book of Mormon, the promised gathering of Israel would not occur
."

During our Catholic upbringing, my wife and I also believe the Bible too causes people to learn about
Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church.  As for the underlined statement above, 
I found these links showing many biblical passages which discuss the gathering and/or grafting.

Hope you can provide clarity.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Gathering-Israel
http://www.bibleresearch.org/prophecybook2/b2w18.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/olive-tree-Bible.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/Israel-church.html
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/
https://endtimestruth.com/israel/the-regathering-of-israel/
https://int.icej.org/susans-blog/what-does-bible-have-say-about-return-jews-their-homeland
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/3683/Regathering-of-Israel.htm
http://doctorwoodhead.com/israel-the-barometer-of-bible-prophecy-and-their-the-re-gathering-2/

Jonah

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This goes back to the whole idea of an apostasy, either the apostasy did occur or did not occur. If the apostasy did occur then when you teach people about Jesus Christ you are helping people to know about him, but not to join His Church. You are helping them join a church that teaches about Jesus Christ, and that is a good thing.

If the apostasy did occur the Book of Mormon is a keystone to the restoration of Jesus Christ's Church, which is now gathering Israel and the heritage of each member is known as they are revealed what heritage (tribe) they are from. Thus we have a literal gathering of the House of Israel. The Book of Mormon, as a witness to Christ and his work and glory, people read and come to join His Church. Thus the statement, if there were no Book of Mormon there would be no restoration of Christ's Church and thus no gathering.

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I would second @Anddenex and would add that the sentence that precedes the one one you underlined is what it means. The gathering is Israel is to gather the flock into one fold which is the Church. The often misinterpreted Bible by itself cannot do that. But the Book of Mormon used as a companion with the Bible firmly establishes the truth and leads people to the saving ordinances found only in Christ's true church. Great question!

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Using an analogy, I see scattered Israel as leaves blowing in the backyard, and the Book of Mormon as the rake, with the rake often being utilised by missionaries and missionary-minded members. The Book of Mormon is a central tool in the gathering process and a key means by which it will be accomplished. 

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Political Power and Physical Nation:

The nation of Israel would never have been accepted by the world without the restoration. While the world points to the Balfour Declaration and to UN Resolution 181, as well as the events following it (like the US support) as the mechanism of the formation of the State of Israel, the Lord's time table is much longer.  As Latter-day Saints, we point to the Dedication of Palestine for the Return of the Jews.

The nation of Israel was not formed by man's hand, but by the Hand of God, through the power of the priesthood held by His appointed servants.  No man taketh this honor unto himself, but he who is called of God as was Aaron, by a living prophet of God like Moses.

Spiritual Gathering:

The spiritual gathering is about temple work and about family lines coming together.  While we have individuals from each of the houses of Israel, the gathering was to be en masse.  And for the smaller houses, even the establishment of the nation of Israel cannot really be thought of as fulfilling that.  So, this is at some future date.

What we do know is that the spiritual gathering is not merely gathering as a political nation, but as servants of the Lord Jesus Christ.  How many Jews in Israel can claim faith in Jesus as the Messiah?  Very few.

We in the Church have been primarily gathering those of the House of Ephraim.  When the reeds have formed a wall against the wind, the remaining houses will gather, not in the Old Jerusalem, but in the New Jerusalem established by His Church and Kingdom on earth.  And that ain't the UN.

Edited by Vernor's Ginger Ale
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13 hours ago, Jonah said:

What does the underlined statement mean exactly?  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2020/04/the-future-of-the-church-preparing-the-world-for-the-saviors-second-coming?lang=eng

"The Book of Mormon declares the doctrine of the gathering (see, for example, 1 Nephi 10:14). 
It causes people to learn about Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church. 
In fact, if there were no Book of Mormon, the promised gathering of Israel would not occur
."

During our Catholic upbringing, my wife and I also believe the Bible too causes people to learn about
Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church.  As for the underlined statement above, 
I found these links showing many biblical passages which discuss the gathering and/or grafting.

Hope you can provide clarity.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Gathering-Israel
http://www.bibleresearch.org/prophecybook2/b2w18.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/olive-tree-Bible.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/Israel-church.html
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/
https://endtimestruth.com/israel/the-regathering-of-israel/
https://int.icej.org/susans-blog/what-does-bible-have-say-about-return-jews-their-homeland
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/3683/Regathering-of-Israel.htm
http://doctorwoodhead.com/israel-the-barometer-of-bible-prophecy-and-their-the-re-gathering-2/

Jonah

Does the Bible tell us anything about who and where the lost tribes of Israel are? If it were not for the Book of Mormon, they would still be lost. I mean, sure, archeology and other disciplines might uncover where some of them went, but it would never, even to this day have ever uncovered Lehi's and Mulek's parties. Then there is the fact that even though the Bible mentions the gathering of Israel, it never would have been instigated by any religions of the day as it was by the remarkable journey of Orsen Hyde, who, to my knowledge, is the only person of any religion to offer a prayer to dedicate the land to the returning of the Jews. That's indirectly connected to the Book of Mormon (no Book of Mormon, no Orsen Hyde or Joseph Smith for that matter).

But the underlined statement was about the gathering of Israel which isn't being done the same as with the Jews. The Book of Mormon is the stick of Ephriam which is the kingdom of Israel and it is because of that book that they, the lost tribes of Israel are being gathered.

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20 hours ago, brotherofJared said:

Does the Bible tell us anything about who and where the lost tribes of Israel are? If it were not for the Book of Mormon, they would still be lost.

James 1:1 does not give the impression the ten tribes are lost.  How do you believe the Book of
Mormon helps to make the lost 10 tribes now found instead of still being lost?

Then there 


is the fact that even though the Bible mentions the gathering of Israel, it never 
would have been instigated by any religions of the day as it was by the remarkable 
journey of Orsen Hyde, who, to my knowledge, is the only person of any religion 
to offer a prayer to dedicate the land to the returning of the Jews.

Long before the arrival of the Mormon Church, Jews and Christians have been
waiting and praying for God's promise to regather all the tribes into the lands of 
inheritance (which is Israel, not America).  One does not have to visit the Holy
Land and make a prayer on that soil to have an special effect. Likewise, one does
not have to be specifically baptized in the Jordan River as opposed to some other
river in another country to have the same effect.

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10 minutes ago, Jonah said:

Long before the arrival of the Mormon Church

There is no such thing as the Mormon Church, as you know perfectly well. We have requested that you use the proper name of the Church. Why don't you?

12 minutes ago, Jonah said:

One does not have to visit the Holy Land and make a prayer on that soil to have an special effect.

How would you know that? On what authority do you base this claim?

Mods, here is yet another example of @Jonah lecturing Latter-day Saints on the wrongness of their religion. Such actions should not be tolerated on this site, especially on a subforum specifically dedicated to discussing LDS doctrine.

Jonah is not a friend, nor even an honest questioner. Jonah is an antagonist. It's time he be recognized as such.

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Guest Scott

The gathering of Israel pertains to more than just the Jews. 

And in another sense Israel means the true believer in Christ, as explained by Paul (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12). The name Israel is therefore variously used to denote (1) the man Jacob, (2) the literal descendants of Jacob, and (3) the true believers in Christ, regardless of their lineage or geographical location.

Source:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/israel?lang=eng

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1 hour ago, Jonah said:

James 1:1 does not give the impression the ten tribes are lost.  How do you believe the Book of
Mormon helps to make the lost 10 tribes now found instead of still being lost?

 

 

Long before the arrival of the Mormon Church, Jews and Christians have been
waiting and praying for God's promise to regather all the tribes into the lands of 
inheritance (which is Israel, not America).  One does not have to visit the Holy
Land and make a prayer on that soil to have an special effect. Likewise, one does
not have to be specifically baptized in the Jordan River as opposed to some other
river in another country to have the same effect.

James 1:1 is an interesting verse that has been debated by various scholars.  This will be long.

One of the views that is a common explanation IGNORES the blatantly obvious in front of their eyes.  This argument is that the lost Tribes of Israel and the Jews are one and the same.  This is actually NOT TRUE.  The term Jew could be seen as the nickname for those who were part of the Tribe of Judah, as is inherent in their name.  Other tribes would actually object to being called under this nickname. 

It would be if one was calling an American an Australian, or an Scot a Canadian.  While there may be some Canadians and Americans that take pride in their Scottish or English heritage, most United States Citizens would probably not prefer to be called an Aussie as a reference to where they are from and where they come from.  If pursued long enough, it could even be considered an insult.

That said, ignoring the insults to the other tribes, one of the common views is that James is actually referring simply to the Jews.  The idea is that after the captivity they returned to Jerusalem and simply were called Jews instead of the Hebrews, Tribes of Israel, or by their different tribal names.

This is not the ONLY theory though, as there are multiple theories, some of which are contested.  Some of this come from different readings and interpretations, for example, while the King James version states to the tribes which are scattered, others talk about dispersed.  In this some consider that though the tribes were dispersed, they were generally thought to be outwards around the Caucases and elsewhere.  Hence, in a way, James could have been talking to the Jews (and parts of the remnant of Benjamin) as if they were Israel as a whole, OR, if being more in line with the New Testament, he could have also been talking to the tribes that had lost their identity and were thus dispersed among the Gentiles, who considered themselves in a way as Gentiles.

Part of this and how you interpret it may be how you get it from your church teachings and your church scholars as it can vary between churches, though many times more especially between Catholic and Protestant.  On the popular Biblehub site it discusses it similarly to this...

Biblehub James 1:1 commentary

Quote

To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad.—Or, to the twelve tribes in the dispersion. To these remnants of the house of Israel, whose “casting away” (Romans 11:15) was leading to the “reconciling of the world;” whose “fall” had been the cause of its “riches;” “and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles” (James 1:12). Scattered abroad indeed they were, “a by-word among all nations” (Deuteronomy 28:37), “a curse and an astonishment” (Jeremiah 29:18) wherever the Lord had driven them. But there is something figurative, and perhaps prophetic, in the number twelve. Strictly speaking, at the time this Epistle was written, Judah and Benjamin, in great measure, were returned to the Holy Land from their captivity, though numbers of both tribes were living in various parts of the world, chiefly engaged, as at the present day, in commerce. The remaining ten had lost their tribal distinctions, and have now perished from all historical record, though it is still one of the fancies of certain writers, rather pious than learned, to discover traces of them in the aborigines of America, Polynesia, and almost every where else; most ethnologically improbable of all, in the Teutonic nations, and our own families thereof. But long before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus, and even the preaching of Christianity, Jewish colonists were found in Europe as well as Asia. “Even where they suffered most, through their own turbulent disposition, or the enmity of their neighbours, they sprang again from the same undying stock, however it might be hewn by the sword or seared by the fire. Massacre seemed to have no effect in thinning their ranks, and, like their forefathers in Egypt, they still multiplied under the most cruel oppression.” (See Milman’s History of the Jews, vol. i., p. 449, et seq.) While the Temple stood these scattered settlements were colonies of a nation, bound together by varied ties and sympathies, but ruled in the East by a Rabbi called the Prince of the Captivity, and in the West by the Patriarch of Tiberias, who, curiously, had his seat in that Gentile city of Palestine. The fall of Jerusalem, and the end therewith of national existence, rather added to than detracted from the authority of these strange governments; the latter ceased only in the reign of the Emperor Theodosius, while the former continued, it is said, in the royal line of David, until the close of the eleventh century, after which the dominion passed wholly into the hands of the Rabbinical aristocracy, from whom it has come down to the present day. The phrase “in the dispersion” was common in the time or our Lord; the Jews wondered whether He would “go unto the dispersion amongst the Gentiles” (John 7:35, and see Note there).

In this, then is the a matter of more understanding of what many other Christians may understand about this verse, in that the tribes were NOT combined as one in or necessarily at Jerusalem or thereabouts. 

This is very similar to what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches in my understanding of much of it.

After Solomon his Kingdom was divided in two.  These two Kingdoms were split with a majority of the tribes going to one, and Judah going in another to rule.  As these Kingdoms fell, the tribes were captured and taken afar.  Most of the rest of the Old Testament covers the stories of the Kings people, or those of the tribe of Judah.  After their captivity they started coming back to the Holy Land, most of whom were Judah with some of Benjamin and what we believe were small remnants perhaps of other tribes (for example, Levites for the Priests).  However, most of the other ten tribes were not returning to the Holy Land, or to Israel or Jerusalem.

During the time of the Lord, it was therefore the Jews, or those from the tribe of Judah that primarily lived in that area.  The other tribes were seen as dispersed among the other peoples of the earth.  How much is debatable.  What is interesting is that rather than specify location or which tribes, he was referring to all of them in a general sense.  This is an oddity as we know at the time much of the Tribe of Judah was NOT dispersed...so if we include them and part of Benjamin...who was he talking to?

Once again, it could be that he accepted that the dispersion where many did not know of their heritage or identity was a foregone conclusion among the ten tribes...thus their being lost among the Gentiles.  However, in this light, he was also addressing the Jews.  As this was the case, he would have been addressing the Jews and those who were followers of the Lord at Jerusalem, as well as the Gentiles who were joining them.

In the Church we have an even greater enlightenment.  We believe that, even if we are gentiles prior to our joining, we can either have revealed to us if we are actually part of a tribe of Israel...OR be adopted into one.

If we believe that the same organization existed prior to what we call the apostasy, or loss of many great yet simple things of the gospel, than we would also believe this idea of learning which tribe you were a part of if you were part of a tribe was known to the Saints.  Thus, the followers would all have also been part of one of the tribes of Israel, even if they had formerly thought they were (or actually were) a gentile. 

So, how does this fall into the Saints of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understanding today.  As, with many of the Protestants we believe that the tribes are lost, or at least knowledge of what happened to the tribes.  You could call it a dispersion or a scattering, whatever you want to call it, today the only tribe we really know about are the ones who kept their identity.  Those would be the children of Judah, or the Jews.  All the others have vanished.  It is impossible to find those of the Levites to perform the priestly functions even if there was a tabernacle or a temple in Jerusalem.  There is no one nation or group that claims to be Zebulons or Zebulites.  We cannot find Issacharites or others in a nation or group as a whole that call themselves that...unless we look at our Church.  Though we have no great groups as of yet, we can find members of various tribes that call themselves of that tribe.

Thus, we take it a step further than some of the Protestants in that we believe that the gathering of Israel can speak of several things.  Many feel it is simply the gathering that is taking place in Israel already, and that at some point those from an unknown location in the North will voyage and join the Jews in Israel or some other way it will be manifest.

First, as has already been mentioned in this thread, the gathering of the Jews back to their Homeland in Israel.  We see this occurring.  The land, or so we believed, was dedicated to this purpose and the Lord has shown his great power and his generous hand in gathering them back to their Homeland.  Not all Jews have gone to live in Israel and in fact many millions do NOT live there.  However, we believe the gathering has been taking place there and many Jews now live in Israel.

We also believe in a spiritual gathering of which we believe the tribes are being gathered to the Gospel.  This is not necessarily, at least currently, a physical migration, but one of spiritual fulfillment.  Here we believe that many of the tribes are gathered spiritually to join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Not all the members of the tribes will join, and in fact many million if not Billions have not.  However, we believe the gathering has been taking place and there are millions who will say they are parts of various tribes within the church today, though a majority are probably from either Ephraim or Manasseh.  There are also members of other tribes that I have met such as from Dan and others.

We believe in Jerusalem as well as a New Jerusalem, both of which will herald the Saints and the tribes of Israel as their inheritance.

There are other thoughts of interpretations as well regarding the gathering and in fact, that perhaps at some date there will be a mass gathering of tribes that come to Israel.  Already, many of those who have joined the gospel come from what would be the North countries in relation to Israel.  The same could be said of the many Jews from Europe who travelled to Israel.  In this, with no more occurring, one could say the prophecy of those coming from the North has already been fulfilled...however, we do not know all things and it could be an even greater fulfillment of that is coming in the future.

Thus, we believe that the scattering (or dispersion if you want) actually took place.  That of those tribes in Joseph Smith's time, at least ten were lost.  We believe that the gathering of Israel is currently taking place in the world.  The spiritual gathering that we believe in could NOT have taken place without the gospel restoration which we believe in.

The Physical gathering of those to Israel we can also believe started with the dedication of the Holy Land long before the incidents which occurred happened. 

There is probably another physical gathering to also occur in the future in which the ten tribes will be gathered to their respective inheritances and receive all the promises of the Lord. 

Thus, in that light I see no confusion or problem with James 1:1 in regards to his statements to a gathering or scattering.

Even beyond that, if we go into the massive speculation further abroad from normal philosophies of men, we could guess that James was prophetic and that he was not just talking to the Jews and Gentiles of his time, but to the future tribes that had been scattered.  One of those, and Ephraimite (or I think he was of Ephraim) read the words of James and was touched.  He was searching for what religion was right and found of verse in James Chapter 1 verse 5 that states if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.  He believed the words of James.  He believed the word of God and the Bible.  He believed the promise given by James.  He asked God which church was true.  He was answered that while many had some of the truth, none of them were the right church at the time and for him to join none of them.   He saw and talked with God and received an answer or wisdom, just as the promise stated.

This Ephraimite was Joseph Smith.  He continued to pray for guidance and as such received other angelic visitors which led him to the Book of Mormon as well as revelations on the gospel that we, Latter-day Saints, believe in.  He trusted in the words of James and in the Bible.  Through this, he was led to the truth just like others can be.

It is for this reason we do not (or we did not last I checked) say that men must believe without choice, but that instead they can ALSO know like Joseph Smith knew and how I learned of the truth of the gospel.  We can read the Book of Mormon and then we can pray to know for ourselves whether it is true or not.  In a similar vein we have a promise at the end of the Book of Mormon from a Prophet called Moroni where he states...

Quote

Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

In this way, those touched by this promise and who pray can find the truth of the gospel.  This is the miraculous way the Lord finds the lost tribes today in the spiritual gathering of those to his gospel.  We hear his voice and can know him through prayer and earnestly seeking.  If you have not tried it, I'd invite you to give it a shot...who knows...perhaps it could lead to paths and places one never expected.

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:47 AM, Jonah said:

What does the underlined statement mean exactly?  

"The Book of Mormon declares the doctrine of the gathering (see, for example, 1 Nephi 10:14). 
It causes people to learn about Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church. 
In fact, if there were no Book of Mormon, the promised gathering of Israel would not occur
."

During our Catholic upbringing, my wife and I also believe the Bible too causes people to learn about
Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church.  As for the underlined statement above, 
I found these links showing many biblical passages which discuss the gathering and/or grafting.

Hope you can provide clarity.

Jonah

If we take a long hard look at nearly 2000 years of history since Christ - perhaps you may understand better - I will try to add clarity.

For over 1,000 years following the death of the Apostles and Christians coming to civil power there was no religious freedom.  It was the year 1649 (I think) that the Toleration Act was passed that made it unlawful to kill other Christians or confiscate their property that were not of the predominate Christian sect.  Without going into all the details - even this law was not passed out of love of others but in essence to avoid escalation of a war.  I would also note that Charlemagne murdered more men, women and children to convert northern Europe to Christianity; that was the civil power at the time, than was killed by the dreaded black plague.   I would also point out that it was almost 200 years following the Toleration Act before it was unlawful to murder and confiscate the property of anyone that believed in a religion that did not accept the Trinity.

If there was an institution; that as an institution, believed in a Christ that insisted that his disciples love one another and love their neighbor as themselves - I would be most interested in seeing the proof of such institution prior to 1649.  Some may claim that there were individuals that so behaved - but there was not a church to uphold such principles.  For all his mass murdering Charlemagne was honored as "The Defender of the Faith" by the predominate Christian institution of his day.

I would submit that the influence of the Book of Mormon as a mark in history beginning with the publication in 1830 has been profound and that most all Christian institutions of today are much more loving and compassionate towards their non-Christian neighbors -  Can you think of a greater example of gathering throughout the world for peoples to believe in Christ?

 

The Traveler

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On 3/30/2020 at 2:47 AM, Jonah said:

What does the underlined statement mean exactly?  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2020/04/the-future-of-the-church-preparing-the-world-for-the-saviors-second-coming?lang=eng

"The Book of Mormon declares the doctrine of the gathering (see, for example, 1 Nephi 10:14). 
It causes people to learn about Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church. 
In fact, if there were no Book of Mormon, the promised gathering of Israel would not occur
."

During our Catholic upbringing, my wife and I also believe the Bible too causes people to learn about
Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church.  As for the underlined statement above, 
I found these links showing many biblical passages which discuss the gathering and/or grafting.

Hope you can provide clarity.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Gathering-Israel
http://www.bibleresearch.org/prophecybook2/b2w18.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/olive-tree-Bible.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/all-Israel-saved.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/Israel-church.html
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/articles/prophecy/the-regathering-of-israel/
https://endtimestruth.com/israel/the-regathering-of-israel/
https://int.icej.org/susans-blog/what-does-bible-have-say-about-return-jews-their-homeland
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/3683/Regathering-of-Israel.htm
http://doctorwoodhead.com/israel-the-barometer-of-bible-prophecy-and-their-the-re-gathering-2/

Jonah

Part of the answer might lie in the preface to the Book of Mormon, engraved on gold plates by Moroni almost 1,600 years ago. In this preface, Moroni writes about his purpose and hopes in preparing the gold plates.

    Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
2     An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

(Book of Mormon | Preface Title Page:1 - 2)

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:47 AM, Jonah said:

What does the underlined statement mean exactly?  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2020/04/the-future-of-the-church-preparing-the-world-for-the-saviors-second-coming?lang=eng

"The Book of Mormon declares the doctrine of the gathering (see, for example, 1 Nephi 10:14). 
It causes people to learn about Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church. 
In fact, if there were no Book of Mormon, the promised gathering of Israel would not occur
."

During our Catholic upbringing, my wife and I also believe the Bible too causes people to learn about
Jesus Christ, to believe His gospel, and to join His Church.  As for the underlined statement above, 
I found these links showing many biblical passages which discuss the gathering and/or grafting.

Hope you can provide clarity.

Obviously, when one believes in an omnipotent God, one doesn’t really have the luxury of making historical modus tollens arguments.  President Nelson does so anyways, for rhetorical effect.  But I think most of us—including Nelson himself—would acknowledge that God could have gathered Israel through any number of mechanisms; and it’s hypothetically possible for Him to have gathered Israel without using the specific text that is the Book of Mormon.

That said, you and we seem to have different ideas of what it means to “gather Israel”.  The sources you cite seem primarily interested in restoring the people of Israel—locating and repatriating a race, or ethnicity or group of individuals with a common ancestor/bloodline.

The Latter-day Saint notion of “gathering Israel” is different.

Yes, we see a literal gathering of Judah to the Holy Land as a sign that the coming of Christ is approaching, in a “gee whiz!” sort of way; and there are special promises extended to the Jews that we look forward to seeing fulfilled.

But when we talk of our own duty as a church to participate in the gathering of Israel, we are talking about restoring and expanding upon the covenant of Israel (and indeed, Abraham) and opening it up to all humankind regardless of race or ancestry.  Yes, part of that entails preaching the Gospel to people who are lineally descended from Issachar and Manasseh and Simeon and Gad (wherever they may have wound up); but it goes far beyond that.  At this point, God is offering adoption into the Abrahamic covenant for everyone on the earth, regardless of lineage. Modern Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Israel. 

As I say above—sure, God could restore Israel (in the LDS sense of the phrase) without the Book of Mormon.  But the restoration of Israel does require a people who are prepared to live by every word that God reveals to them—reveals, present tense.  The Book of Mormon is a sort of litmus test to determine who does and doesn’t want to be part of restored Israel; because it resonates most with those who seek after and worship a living God with Whom they can commune and communicate—and Who can occasionally surprise them, challenging their preconceptions and demanding that they change and evolve and become re-made in something approaching His spiritual image.  Those are the people prepared to join the covenant of Israel, and among whom God does and will work His most potent wonders.  They are distinct from another type of follower:  the one who, while sincerely loving God as her interpretations of the Bible lead her to understand Him, craves the stability of a universe whose Creator she thinks that she’s got mostly figured out; and who—for all her other virtues—feels more secure with a god who remains safely dead.

So no, strictly speaking, the Book of Mormon specifically probably wasn’t necessary.  But somehow, some way, the canon of scripture probably needed to open up again and be published to the world; just to see how people would react to it.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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4 hours ago, Jonah said:

Long before the arrival of the Mormon Church, Jews and Christians have been
waiting and praying for God's promise to regather all the tribes

I'm going to second @Vort's request for a source. 

I'm personally surprised to hear that "LONG BEFORE" the arrival of "the MORMON Church" that Christians have been "PRAYING" for the gathering of the tribes of Israel.  I'd like to know what records show this.  I've never heard of this. To the contrary I've heard of Christians persecuting Jews all over the world.  I've heard that the Jews were persecuted even here in the US during the time that the Church was established.  And they've been persecuted even to this day by Christians all across the country.  While it has gotten much better since about the 70s or so, they're still persecuted today in places as metropolitan as NYC.  Even as we fought against Hitler, anti-Semitism was widespread among the US military.

So, to hear that "LONG BEFORE MORMONS" arrived, that Christians have been praying for the gathering of all the tribes of Israel is unknown to me.  Can you share some sources?  Blame my ignorance on the topic, if you must.  But I've truly never heard of it.  What prayers were said?  By whom?  Any names? Dates? Locations?

Edited by Vernor's Ginger Ale
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17 hours ago, Jonah said:

James 1:1 does not give the impression the ten tribes are lost.  How do you believe the Book of
Mormon helps to make the lost 10 tribes now found instead of still being lost?

Long before the arrival of the Mormon Church, Jews and Christians have been
waiting and praying for God's promise to regather all the tribes into the lands of 
inheritance (which is Israel, not America).  One does not have to visit the Holy
Land and make a prayer on that soil to have an special effect. Likewise, one does
not have to be specifically baptized in the Jordan River as opposed to some other
river in another country to have the same effect.

James 1:1, to me, just says he is writing with a shotgun blast style.  He acknowledges that they are scattered and hopes his message will reach them.

I know a lot of other Christians believe in the gathering of Israel and even look forward to it.  But I don't think any other church even claims to be doing it now.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is gathering Israel (or at least claims to be for those that don't believe). 

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The gathering of Israel is more than just believing in Christ.

To be gathered means to be re-connected with your ancient heritage. It means re-activation of the covenants that lay dormant since the days of father Abraham. Gathered Israel not only believes in Christ, but they preach of Christ. They Prophecy of Christ. They administer in his name, and possess the fullness of His gospel.

I love the Bible, particularly the book of Exodus. Yet, in the 15 centuries it has been in existence, it has accomplished none of the above. The Lord never meant for it to stand alone.

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12 hours ago, Moonbeast32 said:

The gathering of Israel is more than just believing in Christ.

To be gathered means to be re-connected with your ancient heritage. It means re-activation of the covenants that lay dormant since the days of father Abraham. Gathered Israel not only believes in Christ, but they preach of Christ. They Prophecy of Christ. They administer in his name, and possess the fullness of His gospel.

I love the Bible, particularly the book of Exodus. Yet, in the 15 centuries it has been in existence, it has accomplished none of the above. The Lord never meant for it to stand alone.

I very much like your post - thank you.  I would point out that "The Bible" as the cannon of scripture is not of G-d but of man.  Perhaps the greatest witness of this to come forth in our modern time was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scriptures.   One of the most profound witness from the Dead Sea Scriptures is that the previous classification of ancient tests and the accuracy - specifically of the Maseretic classification of texts - use to define the Bible were not and are not the most accurate of the ancient texts.  There has been a great deal of excuses to mitigate this flaw.  What the Dead Sea Scriptures has manifested  is that the books of the Bible were never intended to be interpreted and understood as they have been by Traditional Christians.  

But there is enough of a witness - even from the Bible - that G-d will restore his kingdom in the light of truth, in the Last-days and prepare a "remnant" of Israel to join with Christ when he returns and overcomes evil.  This will be the work of G-d through prophets and not the work of men trying to fulfill scripture.

 

The Traveler

 

Edited by Traveler
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