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LDS Missionary arrested

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1 hour ago, mrmarket said:

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-leaders-failed-to-report-man-who-confessed-to-making-child-porn-docs-say

And we have this other one. Why didnt leaders report it? That's crazy they would let this go unreported.

 

@mrmarket ^^^^ this is exactly the type of post I previously referenced, as part of your posting modus operandi .
It is bad enough that the individual in the OP is around, but your continual need to then dredge up other bad examples while then attempting to fling mud at the Church or Church leadership... why?

Why have you chosen this path for yourself? Why this need to define yourself this way?
You have skills. You have been blessed by our Father in Heaven. You have some semblance to a member of the Church, yet you are way too eager to use your talents for the negative.
I believe you could do better, much better. Have a heart to heart with yourself, sooner than later and ask:

"Are my actions, my comments helping others or hurting others?"
"In my eagerness to toss out the sensational morsel have I lifted up or brought others down today?"
"Did my comments strengthen or weaken someone's testimony?"

Option 1: If you are continually doing this out of ignorance, then there is hope that you will see the error in your ways.
Option 2: If you are doing this to be malicious, then shed the sheep's clothing already and state your real intentions for being here. 

I'm hoping for Option 1, this is why I've taken the time to share my concern with you.

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2 hours ago, mrmarket said:

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-leaders-failed-to-report-man-who-confessed-to-making-child-porn-docs-say

And we have this other one. Why didnt leaders report it? That's crazy they would let this go unreported.

 

If Utah had been a mandatory-clergy-reporter state, this guy would never have come forward at all.

As it was, he was able to make a confidential confession to his leadership; and by continual ministry, the Church was able within five months to get this kid into a position where he ultimately came forward of his own accord and, in the presence of his own criminal defense attorney, not only made a full confession but turned the computer over for further analysis.  In the meantime, one presumes his bishop was very careful not to put him into a calling that gave him access to children.

But for clergy privilege, this guy would have been completely undetected (and his victims wholly unidentified) down to the present moment.  Scenarios like this are exactly why many states offer clerical privilege:  in the long run, it lets us cast a wider net than we otherwise could; particularly in states where confessional religion is so pervasive.

Oh, by the way:  the juvie court system deals with literally hundreds of teenaged boys who did everything Alyk did and more.  They do their time, and at age 21 they are released—no criminal record, no sex offender registry, nothing to warn the community what they have done and what they are capable of.  If we’re going to give a pass to democratic governments whose whole raison d’être is to find predators and remove them from the community, then it’s inconsistent for us to get righteously indignant when a church that openly values repentance, forgiveness, and confidentiality is going to take advantage of perfectly legal processes in furtherance of those values.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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24 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

@mrmarket ^^^^ this is exactly the type of post I previously referenced, as part of your posting modus operandi .
It is bad enough that the individual in the OP is around, but your continual need to then dredge up other bad examples while then attempting to fling mud at the Church or Church leadership... why?

Why have you chosen this path for yourself? Why this need to define yourself this way?
You have skills. You have been blessed by our Father in Heaven. You have some semblance to a member of the Church, yet you are way too eager to use your talents for the negative.
I believe you could do better, much better. Have a heart to heart with yourself, sooner than later and ask:

"Are my actions, my comments helping others or hurting others?"
"In my eagerness to toss out the sensational morsel have I lifted up or brought others down today?"
"Did my comments strengthen or weaken someone's testimony?"

Option 1: If you are continually doing this out of ignorance, then there is hope that you will see the error in your ways.
Option 2: If you are doing this to be malicious, then shed the sheep's clothing already and state your real intentions for being here. 

I'm hoping for Option 1, this is why I've taken the time to share my concern with you.

I fear you're wasting your breath, Needle. mrmarket has made his intentions unmistakably clear.

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5 hours ago, Vort said:

I fear you're wasting your breath, Needle. mrmarket has made his intentions unmistakably clear.

What were pams intentions? I was just responding with another news story.

Edited by mrmarket

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5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If Utah had been a mandatory-clergy-reporter state, this guy would never have come forward at all.

As it was, he was able to make a confidential confession to his leadership; and by continual ministry, the Church was able within five months to get this kid into a position where he ultimately came forward of his own accord and, in the presence of his own criminal defense attorney, not only made a full confession but turned the computer over for further analysis.  In the meantime, one presumes his bishop was very careful not to put him into a calling that gave him access to children.

But for clergy privilege, this guy would have been completely undetected (and his victims wholly unidentified) down to the present moment.  Scenarios like this are exactly why many states offer clerical privilege:  in the long run, it lets us cast a wider net than we otherwise could; particularly in states where confessional religion is so pervasive.

Oh, by the way:  the juvie court system deals with literally hundreds of teenaged boys who did everything Alyk did and more.  They do their time, and at age 21 they are released—no criminal record, no sex offender registry, nothing to warn the community what they have done and what they are capable of.  If we’re going to give a pass to democratic governments whose whole raison d’être is to find predators and remove them from the community, then it’s inconsistent for us to get righteously indignant when a church that openly values repentance, forgiveness, and confidentiality is going to take advantage of perfectly legal processes in furtherance of those values.

Yea good thing they didnt report him. When he was sent home, he was released back into his home where the parents were still running a day care. So letting him back into a home with other peoples children is a good thing knowing this kid did this stuff? They did shut it down a week or two later but even the parents kept the biz up and running knowing he was being sent home for child porn. Im sure you would be just fine with him around your kids right? Just so long as he is working on things.  

Edited by mrmarket

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6 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

@mrmarket ^^^^ this is exactly the type of post I previously referenced, as part of your posting modus operandi .
It is bad enough that the individual in the OP is around, but your continual need to then dredge up other bad examples while then attempting to fling mud at the Church or Church leadership... why?

Why have you chosen this path for yourself? Why this need to define yourself this way?
You have skills. You have been blessed by our Father in Heaven. You have some semblance to a member of the Church, yet you are way too eager to use your talents for the negative.
I believe you could do better, much better. Have a heart to heart with yourself, sooner than later and ask:

"Are my actions, my comments helping others or hurting others?"
"In my eagerness to toss out the sensational morsel have I lifted up or brought others down today?"
"Did my comments strengthen or weaken someone's testimony?"

Option 1: If you are continually doing this out of ignorance, then there is hope that you will see the error in your ways.
Option 2: If you are doing this to be malicious, then shed the sheep's clothing already and state your real intentions for being here. 

I'm hoping for Option 1, this is why I've taken the time to share my concern with you.

Well thanks for the accolades on my skills and however i have been blessed. You do not know me but ill take it so thanks.

Perhaps instead of making me the bad guy here, why not explain how this discipline thing works for child porn production and trafficking? Did the church reach out to the individual families whos little kids' naked pictures have and continue to be sold round the world and let them know what was going on? How do you think you would feel as a parent knowing someone in authority knew your child was photographed naked for pornagraphic purposes and instead of informing you, the rehab of the suspect was a more pressing priority than your child? I just dont get it. I feel a victim has a right to know and the parents should have a right to decide whether or not the law is involved.

I imagine someday down the road facial recognition will be so good the underground child pornographers will be able to actually id their victims and try to go after their kids next so they can have an updated photo album. Dont think for a minute these freaks wont try some trick like that. The more likely scenario is just sending the pics to the now  middle aged victims and taunting them. What a surprise it would be to have something pop up on a text message with a pic of a victim and suspect they know together and have to find out someone who could have reported it didnt and now you have a new friend on the internet texting you your own personal porn from a burner phone.

So it sounds like from one of the other posts utah is not a mandatory reporting state. I guess its a legal reason and i suppose since it is legal it is then a good reason. I dont think it is a good reason for the reasons listed above, but not my show to run so theres that.

Im all for rehabilitation but at some point a victim should have a say in things. Maybe its just me though.

Edited by mrmarket

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Quote

Alma 30:46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him (Korihor): Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth...

1 hour ago, mrmarket said:

Well thanks for the accolades on my skills and however i have been blessed. You do not know me but ill take it so thanks.
Perhaps instead of making me the bad guy here, why not explain how this discipline thing works

I attempted to give you one last benefit of the doubt, sadly to no avail. 

As a son of God, you have undoubtedly received blessings, talents and skills from our Father in Heaven, I don't need to know you to understand and know him. The praise you mistakenly perceived for yourself, was for him. Unfortunately, without skipping a beat... you launched right back into your tirade. Explain to me. Prove to me. Justify it to me. Show me. If you were sincere then sure, but you're not, so... no thanks.

Quote

Alma 30:21 And it came to pass that he (Korihor) caused that he should be carried out of the land. And he came over into the land of Gideon, and began to preach unto them also; and here he did not have much success,...

You are being met with the same lack of success here. There are other forums online that will appreciate your repetitive closed loop negative posts. Hint: The land of Thirdhour isn't one of them.

8 hours ago, Vort said:

I fear you're wasting your breath, Needle. mrmarket has made his intentions unmistakably clear.

Regrettably, you are correct Vort. His intentions are clearer than ever, he has hardened his heart.

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3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Regrettably, you are correct Vort. His intentions are clearer than ever, he has hardened his heart.

Indeed.  He implies that the church broke the law... When any understanding of church policy and even @Just_A_Guy clarification of what the law really is makes this very doubtful.  But instead of letting the actual facts and actual law apply to inform his opinion his to busy trying to twist the laws and facts to support his opinion.  This is a clear demonstration that the truth is not with him

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8 hours ago, mrmarket said:

Yea good thing they didnt report him. When he was sent home, he was released back into his home where the parents were still running a day care. So letting him back into a home with other peoples children is a good thing knowing this kid did this stuff? They did shut it down a week or two later but even the parents kept the biz up and running knowing he was being sent home for child porn. Im sure you would be just fine with him around your kids right? Just so long as he is working on things.  

Mrmarket, my friend, you quite miss the point.

He was going to be around those kids *either way*.

Without clerical privilege he’d have known confession was an automatic jail sentence.  He would have kept quiet, finished his mission and come home, and the daycare would have still been running and would have continued to do so definitely; and no one would have known about his predilections—ever.

Now we know.  Not soon enough, obviously; but we do know something we otherwise wouldn’t have known.  And the daycare is closed.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Mrmarket, my friend, you quite miss the point.

He was going to be around those kids *either way*.

Without clerical privilege he’d have known confession was an automatic jail sentence.  He would have kept quiet, finished his mission and come home, and the daycare would have still been running and would have continued to do so definitely; and no one would have known about his predilections—ever.

Now we know.  Not soon enough, obviously; but we do know something we otherwise wouldn’t have known.  And the daycare is closed.

Sorry, JAG. All  your pretty-sounding words don't matter. Nothing matters except:

200.gif

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2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed.  He implies that the church broke the law... When any understanding of church policy and even @Just_A_Guy clarification of what the law really is makes this very doubtful.  But instead of letting the actual facts and actual law apply to inform his opinion his to busy trying to twist the laws and facts to support his opinion.  This is a clear demonstration that the truth is not with him

I never asserted the church broke the law. I was expressing shock they would not report a child porn trafficker knowing there are victims out there that's all. I suppose if the church is not mandated by law to report someone who traffics child porn then it looks as if they did the right thing. 

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3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed.  He implies that the church broke the law... When any understanding of church policy and even @Just_A_Guy clarification of what the law really is makes this very doubtful.  But instead of letting the actual facts and actual law apply to inform his opinion his to busy trying to twist the laws and facts to support his opinion.  This is a clear demonstration that the truth is not with him

@mrmarket May not be aware of the clerical privilege laws in Utah. I know I am not and at first glance you might legitimately ask "what the heck".

What I do know is that somehow a  pedo was allowed to enter the mission field. Someone has some explaining to do. 

 

Edited by omegaseamaster75

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2 minutes ago, mrmarket said:

I never asserted the church broke the law. I was expressing shock they would not report a child porn trafficker knowing there are victims out there that's all. I suppose if the church is not mandated by law to report someone who traffics child porn then it looks as if they did the right thing. 

It's a good thing to listen & understand the entire situation (including the legal side) before making judgement calls.  In a situation like this it is SO easy to blast off in knee jerk sensational reaction- trust me, I get that (#MeToo).  But that's frequently not the right call.  Rather, we need to listen, be thoughtful, and deliberate in what we do & say.  Especially in important & sticky situations.  

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9 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

What I do know is that somehow a known pedo was allowed to enter the mission field. Someone has some explaining to do. It is an inexcusable failure of leadership to have allowed a this young man to go on a mission. 

I don’t believe that’s accurate.  He confessed for the first time, to his mission president; and was immediately sent home.

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3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don’t believe that’s accurate.  He confessed for the first time, to his mission president; and was immediately sent home.

So it would seem. We are likely not in possession of all of the facts related to this case. 

I know they really put the screws to you on the mission field, but he had to have felt some sort of pressure to make it through his bishop, stake president and MTC. 

I'll assume that the news story is accurate and he did not confess until he was on his mission. 

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18 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

So it would seem. We are likely not in possession of all of the facts related to this case. 

I know they really put the screws to you on the mission field, but he had to have felt some sort of pressure to make it through his bishop, stake president and MTC. 

I'll assume that the news story is accurate and he did not confess until he was on his mission. 

Indeed but the simple fact is that people hide their sins.  (Some better then others)

Yet there seems to be wholly unreasonable expectation that church leaders will some how magically bring these sins out into the light the first time and every time.

If the Church failed to follow the law it should be held accountable. But one should have a reasonable understanding of what the law requires before making such an accusation or inference.

If an individual Church leader failed to follow the law (and/or Church Policy) they should be held accountable.  But one should have a reasonable understanding of what the law and Church policy requires before making such an accusation or inference.

However no one should be attacked for not acting on something they have no reasonable way of knowing.  (And yes I believe in Discernment but that gift, like all others works on the Lord's timing. Not on mortal hindsight) 

In both cases it appears there is a grievous sin that has taken place.  Those individuals will have to answer for those sins.  In both those cases the Church as responded but once more understanding is gained there is no indication that the Church responded incorrectly or poorly or illegally.  

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I don’t believe that’s accurate.  He confessed for the first time, to his mission president; and was immediately sent home.

I thought he was a missionary to Californica*, which I have to believe is a mandatory report state.

*Leaving the typo in there, because it seems so appropriate.

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Guest MormonGator

People are going to use it as a stick to beat the church with. That's sad, and unfair. All we can do-aside from pray for the victims-is be as honest and open as possible. Which I think everyone is doing in this case. 

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7 minutes ago, Vort said:

I thought he was a missionary to Californica*, which I have to believe is a mandatory report state.

*Leaving the typo in there, because it seems so appropriate.

I’d have to read the CA statute, but my guess is that the statute is typically interpreted as requiring the reporting of sexual abuse that happened within the jurisdiction of California.  If the kid only confessed to stuff that happened in Utah, California probably isn’t going to subject the MP to legal action for failure to report.

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17 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’d have to read the CA statute, but my guess is that the statute is typically interpreted as requiring the reporting of sexual abuse that happened within the jurisdiction of California.  If the kid only confessed to stuff that happened in Utah, California probably isn’t going to subject the MP to legal action for failure to report.

If the confession happened in California, I think they could try him for failure to report.  I think they may even be able to convict.  The problem is if they really want to open that can of worms.  If they decided to prosecute it is very likely that there would be a series of appeals over the years.  It would eventually get to the Supreme Court and the question of Church and State would occur.  The big question is looking down the road what a Supreme Court may decide.  It may be a decision California would not want to hear.

The church currently has some deep pockets.  It would be a drawn out fight.  I can see it going ALL the way up to the Supreme Court with the issue at stake being the Religious Freedom and the Bill of Rights.

That's a can of worm I'm not sure anyone really wants to open.

We'll see what happens though.

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Bottom line is... the Church has a hotline for the leaders to call and talk to Church lawyers in cases like this.  Assuming the call was made and the advice followed (And if I were a church leader in a case like this... doing so would be the 'No duh Of course I am going to' option) then the Church and the leaders are going to be on solid legal ground (whatever that ground is).  This will not mean there will not be a legal fight over it, but rather the Church will be confident it can win such a fight.

Of course such legal action might show the legal holes between what people wanted and voted for and what they got... causing the laws to be changed.  But such changes are not retroactive.

 

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

  It would be a drawn out fight

That is the LAST thing the church wants or needs right now. I've mentioned it before, but look at what happened to the Catholic church in New England after the priest scandals. The cover up, denials, legal battles and flat out lies that the Catholic church committed did far more damage to the church than the actual sexual misconduct did. What they did is a lesson in what not to do-for churches, businesses, and individuals. 

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