It's hard to stay non-partisan in a heavily polarized environment


Vort
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Guest Scott
1 hour ago, Traveler said:

@Scott  Would you post the exact words and proof of anything that President Obama said that was precisely accurate and unquestionably true?  Especially any statements that have direct bearing on the Constitution? 

 

The Traveler

Can you do the same with Trump?

I used Politifact to make a point; this is true.

If people don't like Politifact, fine.

Use some other method to back up your points; I'm fine with that.

The statement was made that Obama was more dishonest than Trump.  I have yet to see any evidence presented by anyone on the forum that supports this statement.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, I'm with doing it the hard way.  We should all be naturally suspicious of all sources who purport to tell us the truth, and present their comparison between two sides as accurate.  So you've hung with Politifact since the Bush administration, and you figure it presents an accurate reality?  They call that confirmation bias. 

Unalterable truth of the universe #1 that you must accept in order to have your opinions taken seriously:  There is no such thing as zero bias.  Everyone, every organization has a bias.

Unalterable truth of the universe #2 that you must accept in order to have your opinions taken seriously:  We all have confirmation bias.  We all tend to give greater weight to the source that tells us what we already believe.  It's a human thing, and unless you strive to be aware of it working in yourself, you can't be a persuasive voice, you're only a mouthpiece for whatever opinions you happen to have.  

 

Something very interesting related to this idea, but unrelated to the thread.

There is a problematic item that's been occurring in history for almost 3 decades now (actually a little longer than that, but it's become far more amplified in the recent decades).

It is acknowledge in the study of history that all historical writings and all history itself is written with bias.  It is inherent.  However, prior to the 1970s, for the most part, IN MY OPINION (therefore bias) there was a great degree to strive to be unbiased.  Yes, you may have a bias in your writing, but you can strive to have as little of it bleed through in your relating history as possible.

However, there was the counterpoint of revisionist history, where bias was seen as a strength and something to strive for rather than strive against.  It started small (and a ex-Mormon/anti-Mormon historian was actually one of those who popularized it to a small amount) and over the years grew.  Now, many try to have a bias in their historical writing or history books.  As there is inherent bias already, rather than try to reduce it, they embrace it. 

Part of it I think is due to the desire in graduate work for publishing and thesis.  The more sensational the thesis, the more one may feel they can accomplish what they set forth to do.  It's completely taken over the field of history these days, and it seems more desire to find a point of view to push and argue in order to prove in their opinion and bias, rather than to relate something new or actually reveal something overlooked or overseen in writings instead.  Instead of finding history, they are rewriting history.

It's something that affects history today in many ways.  This bleed through of trying to recognize there is bias but trying to avoid it, has changed to embracing bias and proving your bias is the better path than another's bias seems to be the course of history today.

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Guest Scott
5 minutes ago, Vort said:

There is no more cynical organization on the face of the earth than the news media. They manipulate everything and anything.

 So what is your solution?  State run media (we all know how that turns out)?  No media?

Everyone knows that the media screws things up.

I agree that both the media and politicians should be held accountable for their statement.  The only way we can do so Constitutionally is to stop supporting media that slants things and stop supporting politicians who lie a lot.  Yet we both know that this will not happen.  Yes, we should though.

So what's your solution?

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3 minutes ago, Scott said:

 So what is your solution?  State run media (we all know how that turns out)?  No media?

[...]

So what's your solution?

I have no good solution at this moment. I'm currently in the complaining-bitterly-about-it phase, where I've been stuck for some decades. The ultimate solution is obviously to force people to take responsibility for what they say. Not sure how to enforce this on such a large scale, though.

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Guest Scott
7 minutes ago, Vort said:

 Not sure how to enforce this on such a large scale, though.

It will be enforced in the afterlife and probably not until then.

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9 minutes ago, Scott said:

 

So what's your solution?


President Nelson - 

“If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation.” 

 

 

I don’t believe that there is any other way. 

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

 So what is your solution?  State run media (we all know how that turns out)?  No media?

Solution:
1- Deeply, deeply internalize those two unalterable truths I mentioned before.
2- Do your own research and your own thinking. 
3- Gather stories from a wide variety of sources.  Assume "the truth" lies to the left of the right sources, and to the right of the left sources.  Assume there are vast quantities of relevant facts you are not being told.
4- Learn to gauge how right, and how left, the various sources are.  It's like trying to gauge the wind in golf, you know how much you correct for the wind in order to sink the ball.
5- Follow the money, think about how a claim impacts an election.
6- Develop the ability to tell which billy goat is talking to you.

Image may contain: 3 people, people smiling

 

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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58 minutes ago, Scott said:

Can you do the same with Trump?

I used Politifact to make a point; this is true.

If people don't like Politifact, fine.

Use some other method to back up your points; I'm fine with that.

The statement was made that Obama was more dishonest than Trump.  I have yet to see any evidence presented by anyone on the forum that supports this statement.

I am not a fan of Trump.  With that in mind here is a little list lies by Obama and his administration:

#1. Fast and Furious - Not only did the Obama administration lie (the extent of the lie we still do not know how serious because the attorney general (Eric Holder) refused to turn over subpoenaed documents.   We would not have know of this lie if a US border security guard had not been killed because of the lie that Fast and Furious had been canceled.

#2. Benghazi - The Obama administration lied about the cause, who was involved and actions taken to keep our official ambassador safe.  Obama specifically lied when he said that those involved in the murder would be brought to justice.  When it was disclosed who was involved and their connections to the Obama paid intelligence operatives - nothing was done to bring them to justice - and no one was disciplined for the lapses in protecting our ambassador.

Please note that in both of the above cases of lies from the Obama administration that innocent American officials (citizens) lost their lives directly because of actions taken and then lied about and cover-up.  

#3.  IRS holding up tax applications for conservative groups. The Obama administration lied about using the IRS to harass opposing political interests.  When it was proven the Obama administration lied with promises to correct the problem.  There was no disciplinary action taken towards anyone within the IRS.

#4 The Obama administration lied about Carter Page before the FISA court to obtain severance of the Trump campaign and then lied again saying that the FBI was not wiring taping a political opponent.

I personally do not know how to qualify how evil (bad) the intent of a lie is.  But I am concerned with how broadly the lies of the Obama administration has been defended not just within a particular partisan political party but with what has become labeled as the main stream media - which make such lies - at least in my mind - much more dangerous.

 

The Traveler

 

 

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

The statement was made that Obama was more dishonest than Trump.  I have yet to see any evidence presented by anyone on the forum that supports this statement.

I gave you one.  Benghazi.  Name something Trump said that is as fully manufactured a lie as that.  I'll give you another - Russian Collusion narrative.

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30 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Solution:
5- Follow the money, think about how a claim impacts an election.
 

 

It is interesting to me that this ^^^^^^ is not considered proof????  Not just in an election but in any political decision or action.  Like who profited (individually and collectively) from actions taken in Ukraine, or other programs domestically and abroad.    If any funds go directly into family members pockets - that is a sign of corruption.  PERIOD....

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Can you do the same with Trump?

I used Politifact to make a point; this is true.

If people don't like Politifact, fine.

Use some other method to back up your points; I'm fine with that.

The statement was made that Obama was more dishonest than Trump.  I have yet to see any evidence presented by anyone on the forum that supports this statement.

I am not sure we can call your fact check a fact check and accept it as reality. We can post whatever we want as evidence, but when our evidence is in fact shown to be biased is our "fact check" then dismantled?

A friend of mine presented an article that showed media biased and represented all the outlets who were more neutral, right, and left biased. What I found most interesting is all the media outlets that were more centered (I guess we can call them "centrists") were in fact not centrists. The media fact article was indeed biased toward the left but did not show any bias toward the right. I would have agreed with their right leaning media positions (at least most of them).

So, if our article/evidence is biased, is it even an accurate article or point to share it as a truth?

 

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8 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I am not sure we can call your fact check a fact check and accept it as reality. We can post whatever we want as evidence, but when our evidence is in fact shown to be biased is our "fact check" then dismantled?

A friend of mine presented an article that showed media biased and represented all the outlets who were more neutral, right, and left biased. What I found most interesting is all the media outlets that were more centered (I guess we can call them "centrists") were in fact not centrists. The media fact article was indeed biased toward the left but did not show any bias toward the right. I would have agreed with their right leaning media positions (at least most of them).

So, if our article/evidence is biased, is it even an accurate article or point to share it as a truth?

 

I would suggest that the greatest lie or misrepresentation in the press (media) is the effort to present themselves as unbiased.  Trying to hide one's bias is the great lie of the press.  That is one reason I like Michel Savage - not because I agree with much he says but that he willingly admits (even brags) his bias. 

I happen to be a very biased fan of BYU and I have a brother that is a very biased fan of Utah.  The reason we can sit together at a game between the two rivals is that we admit our bias openly to each other.  We seldom agree on any call - but we can discuss it without hatting each other.  I do not think we could continue without bias honesty.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Scott
28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I gave you one.  Benghazi.  Name something Trump said that is as fully manufactured a lie as that.  I'll give you another - Russian Collusion narrative.

Has Trump shown his tax returns?

Has Mexico paid for the wall?

Has she shown "proof" that Obama wasn't born in the United States?  He said he had proof.

Did he throw Hillary in jail yet?  

Is global warming a Chinese conspiracy?

Is your healthcare much cheaper now that he has been elected?

I can provide a lot of lies Obama told as well, but don't tell me Trump hasn't been manufacturing lies.

 

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8 minutes ago, Scott said:

Has Trump shown his tax returns?

Has Mexico paid for the wall?

Has she shown "proof" that Obama wasn't born in the United States?  He said he had proof.

Did he throw Hillary in jail yet?  

Is global warming a Chinese conspiracy?

Is your healthcare much cheaper now that he has been elected?

I can provide a lot of lies Obama told as well, but don't tell me Trump hasn't been manufacturing lies.

 

Hold on here - most of these are lies someone attributed to Trump - with the exception of Obama was not born in the USA.  But lets review the others.

Has Trump shown his tax returns? - it is not a lie nor is it illegal to not make tax returns public.  Why on earth do you think otherwise???

Did he throw Hillary in jail yet? - Where did he say he would.  He has said that she should be investigated and if guilty should be prosecuted.

Is global warming a Chinese conspiracy?  Where did he say that???  BTW - are any other planets in our solar system experiencing global warming?  I am aware that Trump claims that China is increasing their carbon foot print more than any other country and that if the USA complied to all restrictions - it would make not difference just because of what China is doing - do you agree with Trump or not???

Is your healthcare much cheaper now that he has been elected?  This is a loaded question.  Healthcare is not the same as healthcare insurance or healthcare programs.  I do not think anyone today even knows what healthcare costs are - there are too many other costs involved.

 

The Traveler

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37 minutes ago, Scott said:

Has Trump shown his tax returns?

What's the lie?

And there is no legal requirement for a presidential candidate to show tax returns.  He has a legal requirement to submit a financial disclosure report which Trump has done.

 

Quote

Has Mexico paid for the wall?

Yes.  They actually have.  Not only Mexico, other countries too. 

Here's one avenue where Mexico is paying for the wall:  https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-did-get-mexico-build-wall-its-troops-its-own-ncna1119466

Now, compare that with Obama's "you get to keep your doctor".

In any case, this is not a lie.  This is a campaign promise the same as Obama's Healthcare Plan that may or may not pan out.  HW Bush's "No new taxes!", etc. etc. are in the same vein.  Standard Operating Procedure in political campaigns.

 

Quote

Has she shown "proof" that Obama wasn't born in the United States?  He said he had proof.

she.  Hah hah.

He did not say he had proof.  He said a credible source told him Obama's Hawaii birth certificate is a fraud. 

This is not a far-fetched conspiracy theory - Barack Obama's autobiography states he is born in Kenya.  There is no reason to claim an alternative birthplace of Hawaii to prove citizenship because his mother is an American citizen and therefore, it doesn't matter where Obama is born.  Hence, the question - Why claim Kenya in the autobiography and then Hawaii in the presidential election?  Is the citizenship of his mother upon his birth in question and Obama would rather address an inconsistency in birthplace rather than have somebody dig into his mother's history?  These kinds of things would have been fodder for investigative journalists yet... nobody touched it.

Still... same question... where's the lie?  If you say you have a credible source and you don't divulge who the source is does that make it a lie?  

 

Quote

Did he throw Hillary in jail yet?  

He says Hilary should be locked up.  Not that HE will lock her up.  He is not the prosecution nor the judge.  And, last time I checked this is not a dictatorship.

So, again, where's the lie?

 

Quote

Is global warming a Chinese conspiracy?

The politicization of global warming.  Yes.  That's not a lie.  UN Climate Council proves this.

The politicization of the pandemic - same thing.  WHO proves this.

 

Quote

Is your healthcare much cheaper now that he has been elected?

Another campaign promise.  It either gets fulfilled or it doesn't.  That's not a lie.

And, just for the record... yes, my healthcare is much cheaper now because... I don't have to have health insurance anymore.

 

Quote

I can provide a lot of lies Obama told as well, but don't tell me Trump hasn't been manufacturing lies.

 

You have a funny definition of LIE.

Obama saying on National Television that the Benghazi incident is a result of a YouTube video - IS A LIE.

Obama saying on National Television that the DNC server was hacked by Russians - IS A LIE.

Obama saying on National Television that the Russians colluded with Trump to win the election - IS A LIE.

And all those 3 lies have a clear motive.

Obama saying "You can keep your doctor" is NOT A LIE regardless of what Hannity says.  It's a stupid campaign promise and explanation of proposed legislation made by someone who doesn't understand how the economy works.

Edited by anatess2
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Guest Scott
43 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

What's the lie?

And there is no legal requirement for a presidential candidate to show tax returns.  He has a legal requirement to submit a financial disclosure report which Trump has done.

He said that he would release them if he got elected.  He did not release them, thus he lied.

Quote

He did not say he had proof.  He said a credible source told him Obama's Hawaii birth certificate is a fraud. 

Trump made multiple claims on Obama's birth certificate, not just that one.

Quote

He says Hilary should be locked up.  Not that HE will lock her up.  He is not the prosecution nor the judge.  And, last time I checked this is not a dictatorship.

He said she would be in jail if he got elected, not that she should be.

Quote

Another campaign promise.  It either gets fulfilled or it doesn't.  That's not a lie.

Promises made, but not kept are indeed lies unless there was an effort to keep them.

Quote

And, just for the record... yes, my healthcare is much cheaper now because... I don't have to have health insurance anymore.

Why don't you have health insurance?  Just curious.  If you don't want to answer that's OK.

Edited by Scott
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Guest Scott
25 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Obama saying on National Television that the DNC server was hacked by Russians - IS A LIE.

PS, why was this a lie?  I thought there was evidence of this?

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21 minutes ago, Scott said:

He said that he would release them if he got elected.  He did not release them, thus he lied.

Never heard that one.  He said he'll release them if he stops getting audited.

 

21 minutes ago, Scott said:

Trump made multiple claims on Obama's birth certificate, not just that one.

They're called conspiracy theories.  Not lies.

 

21 minutes ago, Scott said:

He said she would be in jail if he got elected, not that she should be.

The debate response "Because you'd be in jail." is a campaign rhetoric.  We already talked about this.

 

21 minutes ago, Scott said:

Promises made, but not kept are indeed lies.

They are not.  When a soldier tells his son - I will be home soon - and he ends up dying on the battlefield, he did not lie to his son.  It's a promise he couldn't keep.

 

21 minutes ago, Scott said:

Why don't you have health insurance?  Just curious.  If you don't want to answer that's OK.

Because I don't work for a company who gives healthcare benefits unless they are forced to.  So, I can opt for a higher per-hour rate (cash in my benefits like sick pay, vacation pay, health insurance, etc. etc.) instead of making use of their group coverage for a lower rate.  And I can afford to pay out of pocket from a health savings account with only catastrophic coverage.  I've only been to a doctor once and the dentist twice last year and many years before that.  It's silly to keep paying premiums that I can instead put into an HSA.

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36 minutes ago, Scott said:

PS, I'm just curious as to what people think.

Was this a lie or the truth?

Screenshot_20200406-134451_Chrome.jpg

This is in the same vein as the "thousands upon thousands of people cheered 9/11" comment.  He got the information from news stories about illegal voters in California and doesn't bother with referencing them for accuracy.  This is another one of those conspiracy theory thing like Obama's birth certificate.  There is a grain of truth in it but journalists doesn't bother with investigating it.

So Trump makes a statement about voter fraud from some right-wing sources (no discernible ill motive besides bragging rights as he won the election) so he opens up a voting commission to investigate the matter - it produced little to nothing so it got dissolved... no fanfare.

Obama claims Russian Collusion (to mask the FISA abuse and wire tapping) - you get the 3-year Mueller cover-up.

Who is lying?

 

Edited by anatess2
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Guest Scott
12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Never heard that one.  He said he'll release them if he stops getting audited.

I believe you are referring to is this:

Screenshot_20200406-141317_Chrome.thumb.jpg.7c2fa747597ee6b81eaa6b7b11f6b920.jpg

That wasn't the only one (PS, he said he would release them after this audit was complete, not when he stops getting audited.

Is the audit complete?

That was only one backpeddling statement though.

He said he would release them if Obama released his birth certificate.  He said several times that he would release them if he got elected.  He also said (as I believe that you are pointing out) the tax returns after the audit.

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12 minutes ago, Scott said:

I believe you are referring to is this:

Screenshot_20200406-141317_Chrome.thumb.jpg.7c2fa747597ee6b81eaa6b7b11f6b920.jpg

That wasn't the only one (PS, he said he would release them after this audit was complete, not when he stops getting audited.

Is the audit complete?

That was only one backpeddling statement though.

He said he would release them if Obama released his birth certificate.  He said several times that he would release them if he got elected.  He also said (as I believe that you are pointing out) the tax returns after the audit.

Dude... "routine audit".  He stated in the campaign several times that there has not been a time in (can't remember # of years) that he was not under audit.  Every year he gets audited.

In any case... WHERE IS THE LIE?  Do you have some information that he is not being audited anymore?  

And in any case... if Trump releases his tax returns then he is stupid.  There is NOTHING in that action that is of benefit to him.  Nothing at all.  Doesn't matter how spit-shine clean that tax return is... the state of journalism today will make hay out of anything in that tax return - e.g. too little charitable contribution, "see!  he is a selfish rich guy!"... too much charitable contribution, "see!  he is avoiding tax obligations!"... and Tax Returns have zero bearing on a President's ability to run a country.

Edited by anatess2
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30 minutes ago, Scott said:

PS, I'm just curious as to what people think.

Was this a lie or the truth?

Screenshot_20200406-134451_Chrome.jpg

Neither. It was a claim—"Millions of people voted illegally"—and an implication—"Those who voted illegally all voted for Hillary." The implication is unprovable but almost certainly true. The claim is frightening, and I hope (and expect) untrue. But with the Democrat Party doing its level best to circumvent any and all steps to mitigate voter fraud, I won't totally discount it.

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