Easter

[TheTanakas]

I had some observations and questions about these few parts.

Easter

The ancient Apostles were bold in their testimonies of Jesus Christ and 
His Resurrection. Millions believe in Jesus Christ and strive to follow Him because 
of their words recorded in the Bible. Yet some might wonder, if Jesus Christ is 
the Savior of the whole world, then why were His eyewitnesses limited to a handful 
of people concentrated in one small region?

I suppose the same thing could be said about the Book of Mormon.  Why did Jesus
limit his witness to only those in the land of the Nephites instead of the lands
which would be known as Canada or Argentina?  Did the author of this lesson not 
realize that Jesus' eyewitnesses (in the Bible) would be travelling to other non-
Jewish regions to spread the gospel after Christ's resurrection?

Why did God, prior to Christ's birth, choose to only deal with the descendants
of Jacob as a nation instead of any other nation around the world (like China or 
Japan)?
 

The Book of Mormon stands as an additional, convincing witness that Jesus Christ 
is the Savior of the world, "manifesting himself unto all nations" (title page of 
the Book of Mormon) and offering salvation to all who come unto Him. In addition, 
this second witness also clarifies what salvation means.

How does the Book of Mormon clarify what salvation means?

Encourage family members to imagine what it would have been like to feel His wounds 
(see 3 Nephi 11:14–15) or to be one of the children He blessed (see 3 Nephi 17:21).

If you were back in time amongst the Nephites and Jesus invited you to touch him 
and feel his wounds, would you have declined and said "It's not necessary Jesus.
I believed you before I saw you. I don't have to see you and feel you to believe
you"?

Pete

[JohnsonJones]

33 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some observations and questions about these few parts.

Easter

The ancient Apostles were bold in their testimonies of Jesus Christ and 
His Resurrection. Millions believe in Jesus Christ and strive to follow Him because 
of their words recorded in the Bible. Yet some might wonder, if Jesus Christ is 
the Savior of the whole world, then why were His eyewitnesses limited to a handful 
of people concentrated in one small region?

I suppose the same thing could be said about the Book of Mormon.  Why did Jesus
limit his witness to only those in the land of the Nephites instead of the lands
which would be known as Canada or Argentina?  Did the author of this lesson not 
realize that Jesus' eyewitnesses (in the Bible) would be travelling to other non-
Jewish regions to spread the gospel after Christ's resurrection?

Why did God, prior to Christ's birth, choose to only deal with the descendants
of Jacob as a nation instead of any other nation around the world (like China or 
Japan)?

 

Hmm... on this.

It may be he visited other places but we do not have the records from those people yet. 

For our day though, why it is limited to just these few books and records? 

I'm not sure.  Everything we have recorded are from men, like ourselves, rather than records written by the hand of the Lord himself.  It may be due to the weaknesses of men that we have so little (or so many, I suppose it depends on the point of view). 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Why did Jesus
limit his witness to only those in the land of the Nephites instead of the lands
which would be known as Canada or Argentina?  Did the author of this lesson not 
realize that Jesus' eyewitnesses (in the Bible) would be travelling to other non-
Jewish regions to spread the gospel after Christ's resurrection?

Why did God, prior to Christ's birth, choose to only deal with the descendants
of Jacob as a nation instead of any other nation around the world (like China or 
Japan)?  

1.)  The Plan of Salvation is structured around people's salvation through the atonement of Jesus Christ activated by covenants.  The lineage of Abraham is a covenant people.

2.)  We do not claim that the people in the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the ONLY covenant people.  Article of Faith:  We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

 

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

 If you were back in time amongst the Nephites and Jesus invited you to touch him 
and feel his wounds, would you have declined and said "It's not necessary Jesus.
I believed you before I saw you. I don't have to see you and feel you to believe
you"?

Dunno.  Everybody has to go through a conversion after receiving knowledge.  Whether that receipt of knowledge and the succeeding conversion happens before or after I meet Christ is irrelevant.

[Carborendum]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:59 PM, TheTanakas said:

I suppose the same thing could be said about the Book of Mormon.  Why did Jesus
limit his witness to only those in the land of the Nephites instead of the lands
which would be known as Canada or Argentina?  Did the author of this lesson not 
realize that Jesus' eyewitnesses (in the Bible) would be travelling to other non-
Jewish regions to spread the gospel after Christ's resurrection?

Careful on the accusatory tone.

Remember that the Book of Mormon is primarily a record of God's dealings prior to the Mortal Ministry of Christ.  The Bible is similar.  Look at how long the Old Testament is vs. the New.  Then look at the time-frame that it covered.

The point the lesson manual brings up is that:  Up until the time that the Book of Mormon was brought forth, it was believed that God only spoke with a single people throughout all of human history, and that we have only a single record of His dealings.  Prior to His injunction to the Apostles to "feed His sheep", there was virtually no proselyting among the Jews.  

The Book of Mormon brings forth a witness that God spoke with another people, far away from those in Israel.  AND:

Within the pages of the Book of Mormon, we find that there are yet other people with whom He had dealings.  And we'd LOVE to hear about those people as well.  But as of yet, we don't have them.

Quote

How does the Book of Mormon clarify what salvation means?

Tell us,  WHAT DOES SALVATION MEAN TO YOU?

Then I'll tell you what the Book of Mormon says about it. Then you'll understand how it clarifies things.

Quote

If you were back in time amongst the Nephites and Jesus invited you to touch him 
and feel his wounds, would you have declined and said "It's not necessary Jesus.
I believed you before I saw you. I don't have to see you and feel you to believe
you"?

What did Thomas say prior to beholding Jesus in his resurrected body?  Then what did he say after?

Edited April 11, 2020 by Carborendum

[JohnsonJones]

In relation to Easter, as this topic has that as it's heading, I am speaking on that day. With permission (of course) we have been having sacrament in our home.  When we have been doing that (with the exception of last weekend which was general conference) we try to also have a sacrament meeting.  We have our son and his family with us for the duration (and probably longer, glad we have the extra room) it has been easier to ask others to give talks and we have had enough to prepare, bless, and pass the sacrament even.

However, it is my turn to talk this Sunday.  I had asked my wife if she wanted to talk, but she said she would be happy to hear me talk, as did everyone else.  So, it will be me and a grand daughter talking this Sunday.  I'm thinking of posting it here after I finish writing it.  Not sure.  It will be catering to a more general audience as there are also little children in the basement these days.  (their parents had to put rules on our video game consoles we have, an xbox one, some playstations, a wii-u and a switch now, the kids cannot play during the week, only on weekends, otherwise they would always be on our TVs I think.  Grandma likes to retreat to the bedroom sometimes).

[askandanswer]

On 4/10/2020 at 6:59 AM, TheTanakas said:

I suppose the same thing could be said about the Book of Mormon.  Why did Jesus
limit his witness to only those in the land of the Nephites instead of the lands
which would be known as Canada or Argentina?

An absence of records does not mean an absence of visits. This is that Christ said to the Nephites during His visit:

1  AND verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
2  For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3  But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 16:1 - 3)

On 4/10/2020 at 6:59 AM, TheTanakas said:

Did the author of this lesson not 
realize that Jesus' eyewitnesses (in the Bible) would be travelling to other non-
Jewish regions to spread the gospel after Christ's resurrection?

Are you honestly asking whether the authors of a New Testament study manual did not know that much of New Testament is about the travels and letters of Jesus' eyewitnesses as they spread the gospel after His resurrection? Just in case this is an honest question, the answer is yes, the author realises this. 

On 4/10/2020 at 6:59 AM, TheTanakas said:

Why did God, prior to Christ's birth, choose to only deal with the descendants
of Jacob as a nation instead of any other nation around the world (like China or 
Japan)?

I don't know the answer to this, its something I have occasionally thought about. My guess is that God's decision to focus more on the descendants of Jacob than other groups of people is that it probably has something to do with arrangements made in the pre-existence. I don't think its correct to say that God dealt only with the descendants of Jacob, it's just that we don't yet have reliable records of His dealings with other groups of people, apart from the Book of Mormon. But as it says in 2nd Nephi

7  Know ye not that there are more nations than one?  Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8  Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?  Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another?  Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another.  And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9  And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure.  And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10  Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11  For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12  For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13  And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:7 - 13)

On 4/10/2020 at 6:59 AM, TheTanakas said:

The Book of Mormon stands as an additional, convincing witness that Jesus Christ 
is the Savior of the world, "manifesting himself unto all nations" (title page of 
the Book of Mormon) and offering salvation to all who come unto Him. In addition, 
this second witness also clarifies what salvation means.

How does the Book of Mormon clarify what salvation means?

Perhaps you could read it and tell us what you learn? Then you will know for yourself, which is far better than relying on what you might hear from others. As a starter, I suggest you go here https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng and then use the search function to do searches on the words salvation and atonement. 

 

On 4/10/2020 at 6:59 AM, TheTanakas said:

If you were back in time amongst the Nephites and Jesus invited you to touch him 
and feel his wounds, would you have declined and said "It's not necessary Jesus.
I believed you before I saw you. I don't have to see you and feel you to believe
you"?

I hope I will never be foolish enough to refuse any invitation from my Saviour. Any invitation He might extend to me will always and only be for my good. 

[JohnsonJones]

As i mentioned above, we have sacrament meeting today with our own family at home.  I have one of the talks.  This is not my usual fare, being scaled down in dialogue.  I have my son's family staying with us and we have a few rather young children there.  I made it so that this (hopefully, I'm not one to simplify my words and talks most of the time) will be easier for them to understand and hopefully somewhat keep their attention.

We had an Easter egg hunt yesterday in our yard, they enjoyed that, but this is for the more spiritual side of Easter and to help them think about why we have Easter.  The talk I wrote out is below.

Today is Easter.  Easter is a celebration of the resurrection and the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Because of the atonement we will all be resurrected and we all are able to be forgiven of our sins.

The recognition of the atonement and resurrection began long before the birth of the Savior.  We knew in the pre-existence that in this life sin and death would exist.  We knew that in a fallen state we would not be able to overcome these things for ourselves.  We would need someone to redeem us.  We would need a Savior.  We had an Elder brother who was chosen to help us overcome sin and death.   He is known as Jehovah in the Old Testament.  He created the world and gave many commandments to prophets and the Children of Israel in the Old Testament.  He also gave prophets many prophecies about a Messiah that would come and fulfill the law.  This Messiah would be the great sacrifice that many of the Old Testament ordinances point to and represent.  We find this fulfillment of prophecy in the New Testament.  He came down to be born of a mortal mother and our Heavenly Father.  As such he both had the abilities of his Father, as well as the mortality of his mother.  He was known as Jesus Christ and he was the Messiah that was foretold in the Old Testament.

One the items he instituted in the Old Testament was the Passover.  The Passover was a remembrance of the Angel of Death passing over the Children of Israel while they were in Egypt. 

Long ago, over a thousand years before the Savior was born into mortality, the Children of Israel were in captivity.  They were slaves to Pharaoh and their Egyptian masters.  One of them became an adopted grand son of Pharaoh.  He was a Prince of Egypt and in this way we can see him as a parable (or a story that represents something else, in this case, this is a story that also can have elements that remind us of the Messiah foretold to come in the future).  He was a Prince.  He was also one of the Children of Israel.  This man’s name was Moses.

When Moses was younger he had fled from Egypt, but later in life he was called by the Lord to return to Egypt and to free his people.  He would succeed in freeing them from Pharaoh.  This can also be seen as representing what the Savior would do later on.  As he freed the people from the captivity of Pharaoh, the Savior would come and free us from the captivity of Sin and Death.  The Savior would lead the way and help us to be free of the sins and mortality that remove us from the presence of Heaven.

Moses came into Egypt to free his people.  Pharaoh refused to release the people at first and Moses was given several things to show Egypt to convince them to let the People of Israel go.  The first of these was turning the water in Egypt to Blood.  The next was a great many frogs that came and were everywhere in Egypt.  Can you imagine frogs everywhere?  Third, they had many lice.  Other plagues came such as flies upon all the face of the land, pestilence on the livestock, and yet, Pharaoh did not relent.  He did not want to let the Children of Israel, his slaves, go.  He hardened his heart to the Lord and the requests. 

Next, they suffered Boils.  Boils are painful bumps on the skin that hurt a great deal, but Pharaoh only continued to harden his heart.  A thunderstorm of hail and fire was sent and locusts came to eat the grains and food, and yet Pharaoh still did not let the Children of Israel go. 

Next came something that greatly symbolizes the time that the Savior lay in the Grave.  The Savior, in tradition, died on Friday and lay until he rose on the Third day, which would be Sunday.  Over Egypt there came darkness for three days.  No light was given and no one was able to see.  Just as in the grave there is no light, Egypt was also in darkness.  Even after all these things Pharaoh did no let the Children of Israel go.

The Last Plague was of death.  The Angel of Death would go and kill the firstborn son of everyone in Egypt.  The Lord did not want his covenant people to suffer this plague and gave instructions for how they could avoid this.  They could take lambs of their flocks and kill them.  The blood of those animals would be painted on the doorposts and they would eat it’s meat inside that evening.  The Children of Israel did this and the Angel passed by their homes.  The people of Egypt did not and their entire population lost their oldest sons.  This included Pharaoh's son.  After this, Pharaoh told Moses to take the Children of Israel and leave Egypt.  They were freed from Pharaoh.  Their story continues after this, but this story also symbolizes the Lord.  He lay in the grave for three days and then arose and freed us from the bonds of Sin and Death.

It goes more than that.  In the Centuries after this event with Moses the Children of Israel remembered it with the celebration of the Passover.  In this, they would take the first fruits of their work in the fields and the first born and the best of their lambs and offer them as sacrifice in remembrance of the time when the Angel of Death passed over them in Egypt.

This is very symbolic of Jesus Christ and he fulfilled this symbolism.  He was the only begotten in the flesh of His Father in Heaven.  He is the first born of us and therefore our older brother.  He came down as the sacrifice so that the  Death (permanent death, or separation of the Body and the Spirit) would pass us over as well as that of Spiritual death (the separation of us from our Heavenly Father) was also overcome if we choose to accept that for ourselves.  We choose this by accepting Jesus Christ as the Savior and following his commandments and example.  Some of these commandments are to repent and be baptized. 

Many years after the events of Moses, Jesus was born.  30 years after his birth he taught and ministered to the Jews and people who were still left in the Lands of Israel.  Several years after he started his ministry many were angry with him.  They sought his death.  During this time he came to Jerusalem.  Many scholars say this was the Passover week, the same week that they would remember the Passover started during the days of Moses.  This Passover would be different, for where the Passover of the centuries before were symbolic, this Passover would hold the fulfillment of all the representation of those from the past.  The true sacrifice of what they represented would occur during this week.

Jesus entered the Holy city of Jerusalem and taught there for several days.  During this time he had what we call the last supper with his disciples.  He was instituting a new type of way to remember the sacrifice which he was about to experience.  In this he talked about the bread which represented the body and the wine which represented his blood.   This also represents how his sacrifice saves us from the death of the body and the atonement where he bled from every pore in the Garden of Gethsemane.  This is where we say he instituted the Sacrament, which we do in remembrance of him and to renew our covenants with him each week. 

After this supper he went to the Garden of Gethsemane where he suffered for our sins.  He took upon himself all the pain and suffering of everyone that was ever born and would be born upon himself.  He suffered an eternal pain and suffering so that we would not have to.  In this, he took the triumph over sin so that we can repent of our sins.  After this period of suffering he was betrayed to those who wanted to kill him.  Eventually, they took him and put him on a cross so that he would die.  There, all the pain returned from Gethsemane.  After he had finished that suffering he said it was finished and voluntarily gave up the spirit so that he would also suffer physical death.  This was needed so that he could break the bonds of death so that we could rise again from the grave.  He was able to do this because, although he was mortal because of his mother, he also was immortal and had power over death due to his Father. 

His body lay in the grave from Friday until Sunday.  He taught the spirits who had passed on before this event and still lay dead in the afterlife.  He came back and was resurrected on the third day, or Sunday.  This is why we celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday today.  He had triumphed over Sin and Death.

This is why we celebrate Easter.  It is not about the Easter Eggs or the Candy or the gifts, but the resurrection and the life.  We celebrate Jesus Christ, the Savior and Messiah’s triumph over sin and death.  Because of him we will all rise again in perfect immortal bodies.  Because of him, we all can repent of our sins and live again with him and our Father in Heaven.

[Bear Testimony]

[Traveler]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:59 PM, TheTanakas said:

I suppose the same thing could be said about the Book of Mormon.  Why did Jesus
limit his witness to only those in the land of the Nephites instead of the lands
which would be known as Canada or Argentina?  Did the author of this lesson not 
realize that Jesus' eyewitnesses (in the Bible) would be travelling to other non-
Jewish regions to spread the gospel after Christ's resurrection?

Why did God, prior to Christ's birth, choose to only deal with the descendants
of Jacob as a nation instead of any other nation around the world (like China or 
Japan)?

As a student of history there are indication of the very things you have asked.  For example - in the North West (which includes Canada) the native population does have stories of a "White" g-d that visited them at about the time of Jesus's death.  They called him Tacoma.  There is currently a city just south of Seattle with that same name.  The reason that they called him Tacoma was because they had great difficulty pronouncing his name properly.  Their tradition has preserved their efforts to pronounce his name which is somewhat similar to the ancient Hebrew of Joshua - which is the Hebrew of the Greek Jesus. 

Next is the legend of Japan which was settled by a group searching for the garden of Eden.  Short version they came to a place that is the largest island that is the most east - Eden was believed to be the East most place in the land.  The land was called "The land of the rising sun" meaning the land most east - The flag of Japan celebrates the land of the rising sun.  And there are stories among the early people in the northern parts of Japan that tell of a "White G-d" that visited them to teach them the order of living in peace with all things.  The supposed time does correlate with the time of Jesus.

But in truth we do not know if these speculations have truthful value.  And there are others - like the story of "Prester John".  What is interesting is that this character, connected to the crusades, is that in our western culture his story is completely filtered with the "Catholic version" - but there is another version of Prester John that comes through An-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub - best known in history as Saladin.  In Islam the story; Prester John is a king in of a great kingdom in the East that Jesus visited after his resurrection.  There is a lot of interesting tid bits to the Islamic version of the kingdom of Prester John that are not part of this particular discussion.

The point I would make is somewhat of a modus operandi of many modern religious apologists that think whatever they do not know or have evidence of at the moment - cannot possibly have relevance in truth.  But then indisputable evidence later arises that is completely contrary to their notions - which is why so many scientist find most religious apologists to be irrelevant and ridiculous.  Or as a favorite scholar of mine once said. "The absents of evidence is not evidence of absents."

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 4/9/2020 at 4:59 PM, TheTanakas said:

If you were back in time amongst the Nephites and Jesus invited you to touch him 
and feel his wounds, would you have declined and said "It's not necessary Jesus.
I believed you before I saw you. I don't have to see you and feel you to believe
you"?

Pete

I would try to do anything He invited me to do. It seems these verse indicate it was more than an invitation anyway:

13 And it came to pass that the ^aLord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may ^athrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may ^bfeel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the ^cGod of Israel, and the God of the whole ^dearth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

[TheTanakas]

On 4/10/2020 at 9:48 PM, Carborendum said:

Tell us,  WHAT DOES SALVATION MEAN TO YOU?

Then I'll tell you what the Book of Mormon says about it. Then you'll understand how it clarifies things.

For my definition of salvation, I would pick these words from the 1998 Ensign.

"As I understand what is meant by the good Christians who speak in these terms, we are “saved”
when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord
and Savior."

What I didn't understand from the manual was how the Book of Mormon clarifies what
salvation means.  Maybe you can assist.

Pete

[CV75]

1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

For my definition of salvation, I would pick these words from the 1998 Ensign.

"As I understand what is meant by the good Christians who speak in these terms, we are “saved”
when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord
and Savior."

What I didn't understand from the manual was how the Book of Mormon clarifies what
salvation means.  Maybe you can assist.

Pete

According to 2 Nephi 2:22, salvation is Jehovah Himself (Jesus Christ), who is the embodiment of eternal perfection, meaning immortality and eternal life, or godliness and godhood.

Salvation is sometimes qualified, as in Alma 26:15 (“everlasting” salvation) and verse 35 (“unto” salvation), indicating He allows for both perfection (“everlasting) and degrees of  (“unto”) perfection.

But there are some 87 verse references in the Book of Mormon for "salvation" and these in the whole offer greater insight. Can you share which ones clarify what salvation means?

Latter-day revelation sheds more light on the subject (see D&C 76). In general, salvation means resurrection and life in the presence of God, whether that presence be of a full or a partial nature: a fulness of of the Father and the Son, or of the Son only, or of the Holy Ghost only. These levels of glory are levels of salvation, reflected both in the glory of the immortal body and the glory of God's presence, whose presence in some fashion permeates all things -- but obviously less in His light than in His physical presence and personal embrace.

[Carborendum]

On 4/12/2020 at 4:59 PM, TheTanakas said:

What I didn't understand from the manual was how the Book of Mormon clarifies what
salvation means.  Maybe you can assist.

Pete

I'll get to that.  But I need to draw a line from where you are to where you want to be.  So, I need to know where you are first.

On 4/12/2020 at 4:59 PM, TheTanakas said:

For my definition of salvation, I would pick these words from the 1998 Ensign.

"As I understand what is meant by the good Christians who speak in these terms, we are “saved”
when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord
and Savior."

This is a good "dictionary definition" to use as a basis.  But what does it mean TO YOU?  Remember, I asked what does it mean TO YOU?  What does the word "salvation" mean?  When you are "saved" (past tense or present tense) does that definition you gave really make sense? 

Feel free to differentiate between "being saved" vs. "salvation" if there is a difference to you.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Carborendum

[anatess2]

On 4/12/2020 at 5:59 PM, TheTanakas said:

For my definition of salvation, I would pick these words from the 1998 Ensign.

"As I understand what is meant by the good Christians who speak in these terms, we are “saved”
when we sincerely declare or confess that we have accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord
and Savior."

What I didn't understand from the manual was how the Book of Mormon clarifies what
salvation means.  Maybe you can assist.

Pete

2 Nephi 2

[TheTanakas]

On 4/14/2020 at 8:22 AM, Carborendum said:

This is a good "dictionary definition" to use as a basis.  But what does it mean TO YOU?  Remember, I asked what does it mean TO YOU?  What does the word "salvation" mean?  When you are "saved" (past tense or present tense) does that definition you gave really make sense? 

Feel free to differentiate between "being saved" vs. "salvation" if there is a difference to you.

What does salvation (equal to being saved) mean to me?

I can sum it up in one verse - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Some translations have eternal life.  I believe I have eternal life the moment I am saved by
faith in His atonement.

[Carborendum]

5 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

What does salvation (equal to being saved) mean to me?

I can sum it up in one verse - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Some translations have eternal life.  I believe I have eternal life the moment I am saved by
faith in His atonement.

Can you give a definition without quoting anyone?

i.e. use your own words.  No one else's.

Example: Paul would quote as an opening to a discourse.  Then he would expound.

You've given the quotes.  Now expound.

In case you're wondering why I'm asking you to do this ...

When you ask how the BoM clarifies what salvation means above and beyond what the Bible says, what we're really talking about is the fact that the written word can be interpreted multiple ways.  Having a second source of the word of God gives us a more complete picture.  With that second source, we can ask if our interpretation lines up with both sources or not.

"Clarifying" does not mean "correcting" what the Bible says.  It means correcting the individual's interpretation of what is written.

Of course, by explaining this, it almost guarantees that you won't be providing any definition in your own words.  So again, why do we keep taking the time to answer any of your questions?

Edited April 15, 2020 by Carborendum

[TheTanakas]

On 4/15/2020 at 4:36 PM, Carborendum said:

Can you give a definition without quoting anyone?

i.e. use your own words.  No one else's.

Salvation - being saved through faith in the atonement of Christ.

Are you able to explain how the Book of Mormon clarifies what salvation means as the manual
said?

[Vort]

47 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

Salvation - being saved through faith in the atonement of Christ.

If you have faith in Christ, can you be saved even in your sins?

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

If you have faith in Christ, can you be saved even in your sins?

No, BUT, if you die in your sins and accept Jesus Christ and his atonement, you can still be saved from Hell.  You will possibly be placed in the Telestial Kingdom, but only those who are Sons of Perdition (who would kill the Lord anew if they could and do away with the plan of salvation and the atonement) are cast into outer darkness and eternal punishment forever.

There are those that may suffer in Hell, but eventually all but the very few (referenced above as the SoP) will be saved, even if they were the most grievous of sinners here on Earth.

At least, that's what the church has taught in the past.

[laronius]

 

17 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Salvation - being saved through faith in the atonement of Christ.

I think what @Carborendum is getting at is to what end is a person saved, what is the final result of salvation. Is it floating on a cloud playing a harp, is it living in a garden of Eden setting forever happy and content or is it something more? This is one of the major disconnects when LDS and other Christians speak about this subject because we are often speaking about different things.

[laronius]

Personally I think most Christian's definition of salvation is the equivalent of our Terrestrial Kingdom.

[anatess2]

33 minutes ago, laronius said:

Personally I think most Christian's definition of salvation is the equivalent of our Terrestrial Kingdom.

No.  It’s the equivalent of an eternal version of the Spirit World - people either go to spirit heaven or spirit prison and some denominations believe you can move from prison to heaven through intercession of saints.

Edited April 19, 2020 by anatess2

[laronius]

21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

No.  It’s the equivalent of an eternal version of the Spirit World - people either go to spirit heaven or spirit prison and some denominations believe you can move from prison to heaven through intercession of saints.

I agree with your heaven or hell comparison. I said Terrestrial Kingdom because the spirit world for us is just a temporary state before judgement and not the final condition. Obviously there aren't perfect comparisons but I get your point.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, laronius said:

I agree with your heaven or hell comparison. I said Terrestrial Kingdom because the spirit world for us is just a temporary state before judgement and not the final condition. Obviously there aren't perfect comparisons but I get your point.

The Plan of Salvation is present in all Christian faiths.  The apostasy caused the teachings on Pre-Mortal Existence and Exaltation (anything after the Spirit World) to be lost which caused the Christian understanding of the rest of the Plan of Salvation to warp.

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, laronius said:

Personally I think most Christian's definition of salvation is the equivalent of our Terrestrial Kingdom.

I think it varies depending on denomination.  Except for the idea that everyone has a perfected and restored body, I'd venture to say the Telestial Kingdom may qualify for many of their definitions of what Heaven is.  If not for living with the Lord, I think it would qualify for almost all of them. 

Other than that, I'd probably agree with @anatess2 that in many it is more an idea of an eternal Spirit World (or Spirit Paradise to be more precise).

[Vort]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

No.  It’s the equivalent of an eternal version of the Spirit World - people either go to spirit heaven or spirit prison and some denominations believe you can move from prison to heaven through intercession of saints.

Well, except I think that most Christian religions believe in a literal resurrection. You can't really read the New Testament and then honestly say that you don't think the promise of the resurrection is physically literal.