DennisTate

Can a Christian who takes the idea of reincarnation seriously...

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... become a Latter day Saint?

I've been studying near death experience accounts since 1990 and I admit it.... .I may have gotten off into some possible heresies?

For the life of me I cannot rule out the Dr. Ian Stevenson research and I've ran into some statements in the Christian Bible that have me asking what I think may be some valid questions related to this topic?

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I have something kind of serious in mind that could make the following writing useful to the leadership of the LDS church?

 

 

"My Rosh ha Shanah apology to you all"

I am of the belief that my over -soul has lived again and again and again......
In one sense my over- soul is separate from me.... but it is legitimate that
I take responsibility for my own sins from my probable........
or at least surely possible past lives.

If all of my sins of co-mission and omission.... from all of my probable past lives was added up....... my guilt would be off the scale heavy to carry........

http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/
Chapter 5, Christian Andreason:

"I saw that I had been both wealthy and poor, man and woman, sick and well, royalty and common personand even victor or villain Yet, I fully understood that each life was vital and going on for a much needed purpose.

Every lifetime, I learned, is orchestrated by our guides and the Elders to flow perfectly with one anotherteaching us something important about life, the Self, the Self of others, our Creator and the potential that exists within the Super Universe that surrounds us all. For the first time I had a comforting sense of trust that no matter what happened to a person in life, only good could ultimately come from it, as down the road God eternally works all things to a good end."

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13 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

... become a Latter day Saint?

The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that we each lived as spirits before this earthly life, and will be physically resurrected after this earthly life.

That's a different belief that Hindu-style reincarnation when a person goes through multiple earthly lives to ultimately leave their physical bodies behind.  

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12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that we each lived as spirits before this earthly life, and will be physically resurrected after this earthly life.

That's a different belief that Hindu-style reincarnation when a person goes through multiple earthly lives to ultimately leave their physical bodies behind.  

Yes.... that is a genuinely different belief from either Hindu or Bhuddist reincarnation ideas.......

The Dr. Ian Stevenson research rather impressed me and I would have trouble simply ruling it out as either entirely false or entirely from the dark side of the force / from demons.

 

 

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4 hours ago, DennisTate said:

Can a Christian who takes the idea of reincarnation seriously. . . become a Latter day Saint?

I depends on what you mean by 'reincarnation'.

I know a few Latter-Day Saints who believe that those who become Sons of Perdition will be reverted back to their form of existence as an embodied spirit or intelligence and that they will be granted what essentially amounts to a 're-do' at mortal life.  In fact, there was an Area 70 over my state who taught that to my mother.  Personally, I believe it is wrong; however, even if it were to be true, I don't think it is something we ought to teach or dwell on because it is most likely to lead people into a false sense of security in thinking that they could have another chance.

Here is a link to an article on the matter, and the history of this teaching, as it originates from obscure teachings from Brigham Young.

Once again, I personally do not believe this thought to be true; however, it would be the closest thing to reincarnation that any Latter-Day Saint I know of believes.

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Not really. Before you can be baptized, you must be taught and accept the revealed doctrines of the plan of salvation. This doctrine teaches that there is only 1 shot at mortality. Once your first incarnation ends, you never get another. However, we are taught that our first incarnation resumes and is perfected in the process called the ressurection.

These doctrines must be accepted in order to be baptized. They are fundamentally at odds with the doctrine of reincarnation.

There are however similarities. The plan of salvation teaches that all individuals had a life and personality before incarnation. I believe that a few are even able to recall bits and pieces of that life. Though I know of no doctrine supporting this, I believe that the unique personalities, passions, fears, and skills developed before incarnation carry over into this life. Likewise, we will be the same people after we die, and yet again when resurrected.

But despite parallels to reincarnation, there is no flexibility; no room for speculation in this regard. New converts must know and understand these things before baptism.

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8 hours ago, DennisTate said:

... become a Latter day Saint?

I've been studying near death experience accounts since 1990 and I admit it.... .I may have gotten off into some possible heresies?

For the life of me I cannot rule out the Dr. Ian Stevenson research and I've ran into some statements in the Christian Bible that have me asking what I think may be some valid questions related to this topic?

Yes.

Latter-day Saints generally do not believe in reincarnation in any normal fashion. That does not stop some from having nonstandard suppositions about many things. Latter-day Saints speculate and theorize about all sorts of foolishness. That doesn't get them excommunicated, nor does that alone make them bereft of the Spirit. We all believe wrong things. But any Saint who is worthy of the title knows to follow the prophet and the Spirit.

Bottom line: Embrace Christ and his teachings, repent, live your covenants, and NEVER teach your own theories as LDS doctrine. If you think you have had revelation that is not strictly in line with LDS beliefs, that's all the more reason to keep such revelation to yourself.

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22 hours ago, Vort said:

Yes.

Latter-day Saints generally do not believe in reincarnation in any normal fashion. That does not stop some from having nonstandard suppositions about many things. Latter-day Saints speculate and theorize about all sorts of foolishness. That doesn't get them excommunicated, nor does that alone make them bereft of the Spirit. We all believe wrong things. But any Saint who is worthy of the title knows to follow the prophet and the Spirit.

Bottom line: Embrace Christ and his teachings, repent, live your covenants, and NEVER teach your own theories as LDS doctrine. If you think you have had revelation that is not strictly in line with LDS beliefs, that's all the more reason to keep such revelation to yourself.

Thank you for this phenomenal answer!

It is so correct that we all believe wrong things.  Back in 1990 I prayed and asked for wisdom and for correction and to be shown my errors and for these last thirty years I have been shown error after error after error after error in my thinking!  I was shown so many of my errors over these past thirty years that I am now wondering how many errors are still there in my beliefs????

 

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On 4/13/2020 at 12:16 AM, Moonbeast32 said:

Not really. Before you can be baptized, you must be taught and accept the revealed doctrines of the plan of salvation. This doctrine teaches that there is only 1 shot at mortality. Once your first incarnation ends, you never get another. However, we are taught that our first incarnation resumes and is perfected in the process called the ressurection.

These doctrines must be accepted in order to be baptized. They are fundamentally at odds with the doctrine of reincarnation.

There are however similarities. The plan of salvation teaches that all individuals had a life and personality before incarnation. I believe that a few are even able to recall bits and pieces of that life. Though I know of no doctrine supporting this, I believe that the unique personalities, passions, fears, and skills developed before incarnation carry over into this life. Likewise, we will be the same people after we die, and yet again when resurrected.

But despite parallels to reincarnation, there is no flexibility; no room for speculation in this regard. New converts must know and understand these things before baptism.

This will sound kind of strange to you but I actually believe what you just wrote but......  the word "you" can perhaps be redefined in such a way that this topic becomes critical to the promise made by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to ..... in the future.... speak plainly of the Father...... .and the plans of the Father for all of us?

Quote

Not really. Before you can be baptized, you must be taught and accept the revealed doctrines of the plan of salvation. This doctrine teaches that there is only 1 shot at mortality. Once your first incarnation ends, you never get another. However, we are taught that our first incarnation resumes and is perfected in the process called the ressurection.

 

I have  discussion going on what could be hidden meaning in Ezekiel chapter thirty seven that shake up our beliefs on what the human soul or spirit can do before we are even conceived????

Do we have something that could be termed an "over soul" as one near death experiencer came to name it for lack of a better word for it?

Could Elijah have shared the same "over soul" with John the Baptist but in such a way that in heaven you can go and meet both Elijah as well as John the Baptist????

Could any moment in time from Adam and Eve until now become a new beginning point where YOU may volunteer to go back in order to save others?

I was born in 1959 so.... fifty thousand years from now......(just for an arbitrary example).... could I go back into 1980..... but........  filled with so much more of the Holy Spirit that I significantly alter world events in that other possible time line...... at least for dozens if not even hundreds of people?

Would that mean that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus could make more than one version of me..... that also could be saved and go to paradise but.....  significantly off it what would seem to be the "future??"

 

 

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On 4/12/2020 at 8:30 PM, person0 said:

I depends on what you mean by 'reincarnation'.

I know a few Latter-Day Saints who believe that those who become Sons of Perdition will be reverted back to their form of existence as an embodied spirit or intelligence and that they will be granted what essentially amounts to a 're-do' at mortal life.  In fact, there was an Area 70 over my state who taught that to my mother.  Personally, I believe it is wrong; however, even if it were to be true, I don't think it is something we ought to teach or dwell on because it is most likely to lead people into a false sense of security in thinking that they could have another chance.

Here is a link to an article on the matter, and the history of this teaching, as it originates from obscure teachings from Brigham Young.

Once again, I personally do not believe this thought to be true; however, it would be the closest thing to reincarnation that any Latter-Day Saint I know of believes.

Yes..... I love what was shown to several Latter day Saints who had a near death experience about how preaching and people repenting continues on in what could be termed "hades" or "sheol."

I think that this is an example of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus teaching us plainly and clearly on ideas that most Christian denominations OVERSIMPLIFY..... and really mess up!

 

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

https://www.near-death.com/science/experts/widdison-and-lundahl.html
 

Quote

 

Sometime after the judgment the person is assigned (in many cases this assignment is self-imposed) to a specific place or level in the other world - a place where his or her spirit feels most at ease. Eadie "understood that there are many levels of development, and we always go to that level where we are most comfortable." This observation is supported by Barbara Ross, who "died" while being operated on after an automobile accident.

"My father looked like he had looked the last time I saw him, pretty much in the prime of his life, calm and in control. Grandmother looked harassed and harried, kind of tense. I remember her being that way before she died. I got the feeling that she wasn't at as high a level of spiritual development as my father was. She had come from a different part of the afterworld, from a group of people who were unsettled as she was, less distinct in their appearance, and not as much in control as my father. He was benign and calm, like he had been in life."

 

 

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On 4/13/2020 at 12:21 AM, Vort said:

Yes.

Latter-day Saints generally do not believe in reincarnation in any normal fashion. That does not stop some from having nonstandard suppositions about many things. Latter-day Saints speculate and theorize about all sorts of foolishness. That doesn't get them excommunicated, nor does that alone make them bereft of the Spirit. We all believe wrong things. But any Saint who is worthy of the title knows to follow the prophet and the Spirit.

Bottom line: Embrace Christ and his teachings, repent, live your covenants, and NEVER teach your own theories as LDS doctrine. If you think you have had revelation that is not strictly in line with LDS beliefs, that's all the more reason to keep such revelation to yourself.

I read an article yesterday that by this morning I had a possible outreach in mind that only Latter day Saints are in a position to do.

You have no competition from any significantly large Christian denomination that I know of!

The possible key is in the near death experience account of Mr. Christian Andreason:

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/exceptional/christian-andreason.html#a11

Quote

If this world was to ever find out just a small amount of what sexually diverse (gay) people are here to do on this planet, there would never be one single wisecrack or hurtful remark made ever again. Instead there would be great respect! People who speak disrespectful things about people of this orientation ... enact judgment, and do so from a place of unenlightenment, insecurity, ego and socially induced prejudice. Some may use mistranslated scriptures taught to them, not by the Holy Spirit ... but by fear-filled human beings. Many will choose to sustain a Divinely unsupported satanic hate-based rage against these children of God, rather than using Love to bring understanding and healing between both peoples. Christ said, THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS THAT WE ARE TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER! When people sling condemnation, judgment and bitterness at others, they are not practicing the great commandment. They are allowing their Souls to fall into darkness." (near death experiencer Christian Andreason)

BYU’s LGBTQ students feel relief, backlash and confusion over Honor Code change

A possible key to this potentially extremely important outreach is in the rest of his near death experience account as well as in the research by Dr. Ian Stevenson where there seems to be some connection between a male in this lifetime with a female in what seems to be a previous lifetime?????

 

http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/

 

Quote

 

I saw that I had been both wealthy and poor, man and woman, sick and well, royalty and common personand even victor or villain  Yet, I fully understood that each life was vital and going on for a much needed purpose.

Every lifetime, I learned, is orchestrated by our guides and the Elders to flow perfectly with one anotherteaching us something important about life, the Self, the Self of others, our Creator and the potential that exists within the Super Universe that surrounds us all.  For the first time I had a comforting sense of trust that no matter what happened to a person in life, only good could ultimately come from it, as down the road God eternally works all things to a good end. " (Christian Andreason, chapter 5)

 

 

In my opinion as of today, April 15, 2020, the Latter day Saints church is in a position similar to Joshua the son of Nun as he led Israel across the Jordan.

 

 

 

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This is on a secular political forum but your taking a peek at this will give you an idea of how great the opportunity in front of you Latter day Saints really is:

 

"The White Horse President prophecy and saving the USA constitution and dollar."

 

The financial crisis facing the whole world could lead to another 1929, a Bear Market, which of course puts the USA Constitution in real danger.... but......  somebody somewhere catching on to the idea that our Creator places essentially INFINITE VALUE on human life........ can set the stage for a total reevaluation of the whole economic formula for the whole world.  

My Pentecostal wife was somehow shown that I was going to be her husband and that she should fast and pray for me for thirty five days.  She did it..... for four weeks three days per week only fruit juice and then for the fifth week seven days in a row only fruit juice... no solid food...... and her fervent prayers for me transformed my life.  The possibility exists for single Latter day Saints to produce reality films where they........... pray and are given prophetic messages that over a period of months and years produce marriages..... and miraculous healing in minds and hearts and bodies ..... and transformations in lives......... that will astonish the world when the full truth can fully come out.  I know that you Latter day Saints are somehow given the same type of precise and direct guidance that my wife experiences..... that I personally don't yet fully understand or experience in the same way.  

 

 

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Fascinating!!!!

http://cjccf.org/multiple-mortal-probations/

MULTIPLE MORTAL PROBATIONS

The Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship has no official position on gilgul (גלגול, Hebrew for “rolling”), past lives, reincarnation, or multiple mortal probations (or MMP). There are a number of views on these within the Latter Day Saint movement, from their necessity to reach the highest degrees of Heaven, to outright disdain. Here we will introduce you to some of these concepts as they relate to both the Latter Day Saint movement and Kabbalah. Please note that this is just an introduction. More study on these topics is encouraged.

Malachi, Elijah, and Joseph Smith

While reincarnation is not a common Christian teaching, there are those that believe certain passages hint to this concept. The most notable will likely also be controversial, as it evolves Elijah and John the Baptist.

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith YHVH of hosts… Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.” -Malachi 3:1, 4:5

MULTIPLE MORTAL PROBATIONS

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1 hour ago, DennisTate said:

Fascinating!!!!

http://cjccf.org/multiple-mortal-probations/

MULTIPLE MORTAL PROBATIONS

 

Fwiw, I would strongly urge you to avoid such fringe doctrine. The prophets have never taught any such thing. Even if we were to suppose there was some truth to the idea, I see no possible good coming from such teachings. It is a false doctrine that nurtures a false hope, appealing to the natural man who wants to eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. No need to fret about repentance. Just go your way and do whatever you want. There's always mañana. I realize that it's a fun intellectual exercise to play with such ideas, but in doing so you run the very real risk of accepting them into your heart, where they will do untold damage.

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18 hours ago, Vort said:

Fwiw, I would strongly urge you to avoid such fringe doctrine. The prophets have never taught any such thing. Even if we were to suppose there was some truth to the idea, I see no possible good coming from such teachings. It is a false doctrine that nurtures a false hope, appealing to the natural man who wants to eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. No need to fret about repentance. Just go your way and do whatever you want. There's always mañana. I realize that it's a fun intellectual exercise to play with such ideas, but in doing so you run the very real risk of accepting them into your heart, where they will do untold damage.

What you wrote is true...... yes... .this is how we humans tend to think...... but we are now in a situation on April 18, 2020 where the stage must be set for the twisting together of the stick of Ephrayim / Joseph with Judah........ and this concept is an important one to make that possible.  Over these last two years I've been able to listen to dozens of lectures by near death experiencer Rabbi Alon Anava but..... I know that my Pentecostal friends would have been offended by him and stopped listening to him as soon as he would refer to Gilgul.

Why are Evangelical Christians so hated all over the world?

My theory is that truth set us free..... but partial truth only sets people partly free and so the majority of Christians at this time are suffering the consequences of:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.(Hosea 4:6)

 

Here is a summary of the struggle that I went through once I found out that the Soul Sleep Theory was a terrible error:

Could the Christian gospel be much worse news?

Back around 1990 I went through a pretty serious theological crisis when I found out that the Soul Sleep theory was in error. I had believed in it pretty firmly since the early '70's. It sure sounded a whole lot more humane than the gospel as presented by Dr. Billy Graham..... that had inspired me to become an Atheist from around 1967 - 1973 until I began to listen to Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong. 

Without Soul Sleep until the resurrection......
the plan of G-d as explained by Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus sounded pretty awful.

Matthew 22:14

"For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 7:13


Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."


Matthew 5:28

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast itfrom thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

So the possible reality of this hell.... that is so scary that it would be a good idea to take an axe to our right hand....
made the Gospel / Good News..... look a whole lot less good. 

Near death experiencer Bob Jones was shown that only about two percent of people in North America can go quickly into the paradise / heaven environment after death.
 

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The typical Evangelical explanation for what happens after death to the Saved vs the Lost........ when it is really thought through.....  causes Evangelical Christians to appear like COLLABORATORS in a Holocaust that.........  (assuming the validity of what was shown to near death experiencer Bob Jones of only about two percent of people who die being able to go directly into heaven)........ then if the idea of an Eternal Hell from which there is no escape were actually true........ then how could the Christian Bible be considered "good news?????"

You Latter day Saints have the keys to reaching out to the metaphorical ninety nine as shown to the gifted visionary Rick Joyner in his book The Final Quest..... You know about various levels in the afterlife and about preaching continuing in the afterlife and repentance being possible even after death.  You are the only major denomination of Christianity capable of being twisted together with Judah.... the Jewish people!

 

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Rick Joyner, The Final Quest....  "I then looked back at the Lord and was astonished to see tears in His eyes. He had wiped the tears away from every eye here, but His own. As a tear ran down His cheek he caught it in His hand. He then offered it to me. 

"This is My cup. Will you drink it with Me?"

There was no way that I could refuse Him. As the Lord continued to look at Me I began to feel His great love. Even as foul as I was He still loved me. As undeserving as I was He wanted me to be close to Him. Then He said:

"I love all of these with a love that you cannot now understand. I also love all who are supposed to be here but did not come. I have left the ninety nine to go after the one who was lost. My shepherds would not leave the one to go after the ninety nine who are still lost. I came to save the lost. Will you share My heart to go to save the lost? Will you help to fill this room? Will you help to fill these thrones, and every other seat in this hall? Will you take up this quest to bring joy to heaven, to Me and to My Father? This judgment is for My own household, and My own house is not full. The last battle will not be over until My house is full. Only then will it be time for us to redeem the earth, and remove the evil from My creation. If you drink My cup you will love the lost the way that I loved them."

He then took a cup so plain that I was surprised that it even existed in a room of such glory, and He placed His tear in it. He then gave it to me. I have never tasted anything so bitter. I knew that I could in no way drink it all, or even much of it, but I was determined to drink as much as I could. The Lord patiently waited until I finally erupted into such crying that I felt like veritable rivers of tears were flowing from me. I was crying for the lost, but even more I was crying for the Lord.

I looked to Him in desperation as I could not take any more of this great pain. Then His peace began to fill me and mix with His love that I was feeling. Never had I felt anything so wonderful. This was the living water that I knew could spring up for eternity. Then I felt as if the waters flowing within me caught on fire. I began to feel that this fire would consume me if I could not begin declaring the majesty of His glory. I had never felt such an urge to preach, to worship Him, and to breathe every breath that I was given for the sake of His gospel.

"Lord!" I shouted out, forgetting everyone but Him. "I now know that this throne of judgment is also the throne of grace, and I ask You now for the grace to serve You. Above all things I ask You for grace! I ask You for the grace to finish my course. I ask You for the grace to love You like this so that I can be delivered from the delusions and self-centeredness that so pervert my life. I call upon You for salvation from myself and the evil of my own heart, and for this love that I now feel to flow continually in my heart. I ask You to give me Your heart, Your love. I ask You for the grace of the Holy Spirit to convict me of my sin. I ask You for the grace of the Holy Spirit to testify of You, as You really are. I ask for the grace to testify of all that You have prepared for those who come to You. I ask for the grace to be upon me to preach the reality of this judgment. I ask for the grace to share with those who are called to occupy these empty thrones, to give them words of life that will keep them on the path of life, that will impart to them the faith to do what they have been called to do. Lord, I beg You for this grace."

The Lord then stood up. Then all of those who were seated upon the thrones for as far as I could see also stood up. His eyes burned with a fire I had not seen before.

"You have called upon Me for grace. This request I never deny. You shall return, and the Holy Spirit shall be with you. Here you have tasted of both My kindness and My severity. You must remember both if you are to stay on the path of life. The true love of God includes the judgment of God. You must know both my kindness and severity or you will fall to deception. This is the grace that you have been given here, to know both. The conversations you had with your brethren here were My grace. Remember them."

He then pointed His sword toward my heart, then my mouth, then my hands. 

When He did this fire came from His sword and burned me with a great pain. "This too is grace," He said. "You are but one of many who have been prepared for this hour. Preach and write about all that you have seen here. What I have said to you say to My brethren. Go and call My captains to the last battle. Go and defend the poor and the oppressed, the widows and the orphans. This is the commission of My captains, and it is where you will find them. My children are worth more to Me than the stars in the heavens. Feed My lambs. Watch over My little ones. Give the word of God to them that they may live. Go to the battle. Go and do not retreat. Go quickly for I will come quickly. Obey Me and hasten the day of My coming."

A company of angels then came and escorted me away from the throne. The leader walked beside me and began to speak.

"Now that He has stood He will not sit again until the last battle is over. He has been seated until the time when His enemies are to be put under His feet. The time has now come. The legions of angels that have been standing ready since the night of passion have now been released upon the earth. The hordes of hell have also been released. This is the time that all of creation has been waiting for. The great mystery of God will soon be finished. We will now fight until the end. We will fight with you and your brethren."

I awoke." (Rick Joyner, The Final Quest)

 

 

Edited by DennisTate
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This topic is one that could become common ground for Latter day Saints, Roman Catholics and Jewish scholars and this article could assist in setting the stage for that to occur?

 

Many Roman Catholics would tend to take the evidence for Multiple Mortal Probations rather seriously and LDS and Roman Catholics may have even more in common:

 

https://rationalfaiths.com/the-mormon-rosary/?fbclid=IwAR0jUQSkxqefxjKWdMcIg7ZPW-cnwZQvCKfxc_7X0OIXhCmGj4ZRl2S2zBY

The Mormon Rosary

by Michelle Wiener | May 11, 2020 | Featured, Goddess, Heavenly Mother, Rosary | 1 comment

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