Brazillian Adventist pirates LDS Easter video


MrShorty
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I won't link* to the blog entry where I came across this, since the blog tends towards being critical of the Church, but I became aware this morning of a Brazillian Adventist who took one of the Church's videos of Christ, removed all references to the Church, then overlaid his own Easter message.

A couple of intriguing ideas from the blogger I read:

In what seems an ironic twist, Adventists in Brazil tend to insist that Latter-day Saints are not Christians. It seems ironic to me that he would use a "non-Christian" video of Christ for his Christian Easter message.

The blogger posed the question at the end whether Latter-day Saints would be pleased by the piracy (some sort of underhanded admission that maybe we are more Christian than anyone wants to admit) or would we be completely outraged.

* I also did not link to the video as it might be in poor taste to drive traffic to this little bit of plagiarism. If you want to see the video, your search engine should find it under "O Cordeiro por: Allinson Nunes" on youtube. If you want to find the blog entry, you should be able to find it at the Vozes Mormons blog. Moderators feel free to delete these hints (or even the entire post) if you find them inappropriate.

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1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

I won't link* to the blog entry where I came across this, since the blog tends towards being critical of the Church, but I became aware this morning of a Brazillian Adventist who took one of the Church's videos of Christ, removed all references to the Church, then overlaid his own Easter message.

A couple of intriguing ideas from the blogger I read:

In what seems an ironic twist, Adventists in Brazil tend to insist that Latter-day Saints are not Christians. It seems ironic to me that he would use a "non-Christian" video of Christ for his Christian Easter message.

The blogger posed the question at the end whether Latter-day Saints would be pleased by the piracy (some sort of underhanded admission that maybe we are more Christian than anyone wants to admit) or would we be completely outraged.

* I also did not link to the video as it might be in poor taste to drive traffic to this little bit of plagiarism. If you want to see the video, your search engine should find it under "O Cordeiro por: Allinson Nunes" on youtube. If you want to find the blog entry, you should be able to find it at the Vozes Mormons blog. Moderators feel free to delete these hints (or even the entire post) if you find them inappropriate.

I have met several converts to our Church that began by being a critic to our teachings, plagiarizing things they found and discovering new and better ideas.  The anti that concern me the most, both now and through out our history, are those that were once stalwart among us that entertain apostasy,

 

The Traveler

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When i became LDS i thought vozes mormons was related to the church.  But that's what they do, they strive to mislead people that are researching the church. Their content is biased.

And the bible videos series is often shared around families whatsapp group here south. It would be helpful, if These videos contained more information about where's coming from. Like the new logo of the church. That would be a dream of mine hahahah my relateds will always be saying to me, "i believe thats from your mormons church, right kid ?"

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7 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have met several converts to our Church that began by being a critic to our teachings, plagiarizing things they found and discovering new and better ideas.  The anti that concern me the most, both now and through out our history, are those that were once stalwart among us that entertain apostasy,

 

The Traveler

In my time here I recall two prominent LDS members who seem to have left the church. One was a film producer--the God's Army movies. The second was the host of a podcast. He would interview non-members and some that seemed to push boundaries. My outsider impression was that both of these fellows had been sincere members with some questions. However, their questioning became stronger and stronger and their devotion became more and more hesitant. Is it these types you have in mind, or is it more folks that no longer hold to LDS doctrines and faith, yet stay to enact their visions upon the religion (yes, we have some of that in my church too)?

Edited by prisonchaplain
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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

In my time here I recall two prominent LDS members who seem to have left the church. One was a film producer--the God's Army movies. The second was the host of a podcast. He would interview non-members and some that seemed to push boundaries. My outsider impression was that both of these fellows had been sincere members with some questions. However, their questioning became stronger and stronger and their devotion became more and more hesitant. Is it these types you have in mind, or is it more folks that no longer hold to LDS doctrines and faith, yet stay to enact their visions upon the religion (yes, we have some of that in my church too)?

You’re thinking of Richard Dutcher and John Dehlin, methinks.  They both . . . how shall we say . . . made waves, even when they were describing themselves as believing Saints.

The older I get, the more wisdom I see in 1 John 2:19.  I don’t know that I would go so far as to call it an absolute principle; but it’s uncanny how often apostasy is preceded by a significant measure of drama-queenery.

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1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

One of the classic disagreements among Protestant Christians is whether our conversion to Christianity is predestined or the result of free will. Coupled with that is the question of whether or not those who are converted could lose their salvation or conversion. My church sides with free will and with the understanding that it is difficult, but possible, to lose salvation. Usually belief in free will gets coupled with belief in our ability to walk away from our salvation. Those who argue for predestination (insisting it is God's prerogative alone to save souls--that we have no say in it) also contend that God's grace--for those redeemed--is irresistible, and cannot be lost.

So along come Dutcher and Dehlin (I believe that JAG is correct). Could they have been true converts to the restored gospel (even if born under the covenant) and then have turned away? Or, as has been suggested, were they never really part of the faithful? I suppose there are various opinions about these two particular individuals, but the broader question--does the church have doctrine on this question of whether apostates were believers who left or knowers-yet-non-believers?

Edited by prisonchaplain
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18 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

One of the classic disagreements among Protestant Christians is whether our conversion to Christianity is predestined or the result of free will. Coupled with that is the question of whether or not those who are converted could lose their salvation or conversion. My church sides with free will and with the understanding that it is difficult, but possible, to lose salvation. Usually belief in free will gets coupled with belief in our ability to walk away from our salvation. Those who argue for predestination (insisting it is God's prerogative alone to save souls--that we have no say in it) also contend that God's grace--for those redeemed--is irresistible, and cannot be lost.

So along come Dutcher and Dehlin (I believe that JAG is correct). Could they have been true converts to the restored gospel (even if born under the covenant) and then have turned away? Or, as has been suggested, were they never really part of the faithful? I suppose there are individual opinions about these two particular individuals, but the broader question--does the church have doctrine on this question of whether apostates were believers who left or knowers-yet-non-believers?

The LDS Church does believe that someone can be sincerely forgiven/sanctified, and then fall from grace.  From D&C 20:

30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;
31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.
32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;
33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;
34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also.

That’s a big part of why I wouldn’t go so far as to state that John is teaching an absolute theological principle.  But as a practical observation, it certainly seems to have a lot of merit.  There are attitudes and actions that tend to keep one in the church, and there are attitudes and actions that tend to lead one out.  “Well-behaved women”, wrote Laurel Ulrich, “rarely make history books”—and John Dehlin didn’t build his following by endorsing LDS orthodoxy; not at any point in his career.

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31 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

One of the classic disagreements among Protestant Christians is whether our conversion to Christianity is predestined or the result of free will. Coupled with that is the question of whether or not those who are converted could lose their salvation or conversion. My church sides with free will and with the understanding that it is difficult, but possible, to lose salvation. Usually belief in free will gets coupled with belief in our ability to walk away from our salvation. Those who argue for predestination (insisting it is God's prerogative alone to save souls--that we have no say in it) also contend that God's grace--for those redeemed--is irresistible, and cannot be lost.

So along come Dutcher and Dehlin (I believe that JAG is correct). Could they have been true converts to the restored gospel (even if born under the covenant) and then have turned away? Or, as has been suggested, were they never really part of the faithful? I suppose there are individual opinions about these two particular individuals, but the broader question--does the church have doctrine on this question of whether apostates were believers who left or knowers-yet-non-believers?

I can't speak to these two individuals personally as I never knew them well or followed them, but both options are a possibility. Latter-day Saints are firm believers in moral agency. Articles of Faith number 3 answers this question

3: We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

The Grace of Jesus Christ can and will heal even the vilest sinner so long as he repents of his sins and begins obeying the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. In our view, faith in Jesus Christ and works are not at war with each other, but are both necessary to partake in exaltation. Therefore if a man ceases following the commandments or loses faith in Christ (or both) he will lose his exaltation if he does not repent.

Now we do believe that all men, save those who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost, will achieve some degree of salvation hence the three degrees of glory in the world to come. So it could be said that we fall a little bit into both categories. 

Edited by Midwest LDS
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22 hours ago, MrShorty said:

The blogger posed the question at the end whether Latter-day Saints would be pleased by the piracy (some sort of underhanded admission that maybe we are more Christian than anyone wants to admit) or would we be completely outraged.

Nah. Outrage is for worldly people. It ought to be a non-issue to us. Let the legal department handle things.

Edited by Moonbeast32
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On moral agency-As of late I have following comments and podcasts by two Protestant apologists on-among other things-whether the enormously influential Augustine was the first Church father to really deny free will's role in salvation. I find such discussion fascinating, and certainly sympathize with the arduousness that each side honestly contends. But this (like many other biblical topics) may be a "burned over district". If the biblical record is undecided between "chose whom ye shall serve"(Joshua), and "it is not of him that willeth...but of God that showeth mercy..."(Romans) well,...

 

Edited by lonetree
clarity
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14 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

In my time here I recall two prominent LDS members who seem to have left the church. One was a film producer--the God's Army movies. The second was the host of a podcast. He would interview non-members and some that seemed to push boundaries. My outsider impression was that both of these fellows had been sincere members with some questions. However, their questioning became stronger and stronger and their devotion became more and more hesitant. Is it these types you have in mind, or is it more folks that no longer hold to LDS doctrines and faith, yet stay to enact their visions upon the religion (yes, we have some of that in my church too)?

When I was in the Seattle area (Northeast Tacoma - Browns Point) - I personally crossed paths with Ed Decor  (film producer of G-d's Army).  He has served a 2 year mission for our church but became very bitter when he was excommunicated.   At the time Ed was involved with several Churches in the Federal Way area to "Mormon" proof their congregations.  A good friend of mine and fellow engineer at Boeing was in one of the congregations.  My friend left the congregation forever and became agnostic because of Ed's efforts but in so doing caused no small stir and a couple of families ended up joining their faith with the ward I was attending.  Ed sought me out personally because I was unknowingly involved.  We were unable to connect on a friendly level but because of the meeting an additional family left the congregation and joined with my ward.  There was another time we almost crossed paths but I believe he recognized me and left on his own to avoid me - I am quite sure he does not like me any more than he likes our church in general.  BTW - he had arranged for the local press to be present when we first met.

 

The Traveler

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7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

When I was in the Seattle area (Northeast Tacoma - Browns Point) - I personally crossed paths with Ed Decor  (film producer of G-d's Army).

Very interesting story, Traveler. Thanks for relating it. One correction: I guarantee you that Ed Decker didn't produce, direct, write for, act in, or in any way help with the film God's Army.

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On 4/13/2020 at 8:47 AM, MrShorty said:

The blogger posed the question at the end whether Latter-day Saints would be pleased by the piracy (some sort of underhanded admission that maybe we are more Christian than anyone wants to admit) or would we be completely outraged.

Given how little outrage there was about the play The Book of Mormon, I doubt there will be any outrage about this. :) 

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Very interesting story, Traveler. Thanks for relating it. One correction: I guarantee you that Ed Decker didn't produce, direct, write for, act in, or in any way help with the film God's Army.

I believe @Traveler meant The Godmakers. My impression is that the Evangelical wing of anti-LDS efforts has dwindled significantly from the time of that film. I'm not as certain about the agnostic/atheist efforts. One reality is that many who leave a religion, not wanting to be 'fooled' twice, turn to free-thinker type philosophies.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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@Traveler, a faithful member on my mission reached out to Ed Decker when he was investigating the Church.  He said 'it didn't take but five minutes to realize he was full of it,' and that was one thing that helped cement and confirm his decision that he wanted to join the Church.

45 minutes ago, Vort said:

I guarantee you that Ed Decker didn't produce, direct, write for, act in, or in any way help with the film God's Army.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager he mean to say (The God Makers). 

An interesting anecdote: In High School, I made an agreement with a schoolmate to read 'The God Makers' and he would read the Book of Mormon.  I kept my end of the bargain, but he failed to keep his.  He was surprised when I was able to refute and clarify most of the points of the book; I think he was convinced that the book would be so profound and effective that I would want to leave the Church, he never intended to keep his end of the bargain 😞  He did come to Church with me once, though, and I went with him, so I can at least give him that!

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14 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

1 John 2:19 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

One of the classic disagreements among Protestant Christians is whether our conversion to Christianity is predestined or the result of free will. Coupled with that is the question of whether or not those who are converted could lose their salvation or conversion. My church sides with free will and with the understanding that it is difficult, but possible, to lose salvation. Usually belief in free will gets coupled with belief in our ability to walk away from our salvation. Those who argue for predestination (insisting it is God's prerogative alone to save souls--that we have no say in it) also contend that God's grace--for those redeemed--is irresistible, and cannot be lost.

So along come Dutcher and Dehlin (I believe that JAG is correct). Could they have been true converts to the restored gospel (even if born under the covenant) and then have turned away? Or, as has been suggested, were they never really part of the faithful? I suppose there are various opinions about these two particular individuals, but the broader question--does the church have doctrine on this question of whether apostates were believers who left or knowers-yet-non-believers?

JAGS already gave an excellent answer here, but i do want to add a few thoughts--

LDS Christians don't really approach things as "Am I saved?   Yes or no?".  Or the similar question "Am I now not saved?   Yes or no?"

LDS Christians tend to focus on the relationship with Christ and being a better and better disciple.  So if a person wanders away (to whatever degree),  then they are neglecting their relationship with the Savior (to whatever degree).   Not really a binary approach.    Also there a possibility of post-death repentance as well.  

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15 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

My impression is that the Evangelical wing of anti-LDS efforts has dwindled significantly

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's still kicking, though less than it was back in the day.

Amazon has 6 reviews of the book from 2019, out of a total of ~220 reviews.  That is less than 3% and 220 reviews is nothing to brag about, so I could see that it is certainly dwindling.  I'd venture to guess it is to the point where those types of anti efforts are enacted when an 'need' is perceived.  Honestly, right now, the world is at war with Christianity as a whole; in that respect, I think we are happy to come together on our similar faith in Christ to combat the apathy and hatred that appears to be growing not only in mainstream society, but in various branched and denominations of self-proclaimed 'Christianity' as well.  It will only get harder as we press on; the wheat and tares are being separated!

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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS Christians tend to focus on the relationship with Christ and being a better and better disciple.  So if a person wanders away (to whatever degree),  then they are neglecting their relationship with the Savior (to whatever degree).   Not really a binary approach.    Also there a possibility of post-death repentance as well.  

Perhaps, in some ways it is like the historic church approach. My grandmother was Lutheran and refused to use the term 'born again.' She was born into the church, from consciousness believed its teachings, had always prayed and walked with Jesus, so no need to be born again. In my mind I figured it was okay--she really was born again--just didn't like the wording. Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and most Pentecostals/Charismatics/Baptists etc. emphasize 'crisis conversion'--that one moment when the soul says yes to God. Perhaps LDS converts have a sense of this--that moment when the prayed the Moroni challenge and felt the burning.

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8 minutes ago, person0 said:

Honestly, right now, the world is at war with Christianity as a whole; in that respect, I think we are happy to come together on our similar faith in Christ to combat the apathy and hatred that appears to be growing not only in mainstream society, but in various branched and denominations of self-proclaimed 'Christianity' as well.  It will only get harder as we press on; the wheat and tares are being separated!

I remember when Mitt Romney lost and some wondered if the Evangelical vote was part of the reason. Recently I read that less than 60% of Americans would feel comfortable voting for an Evangelical Christian, but that nearly 80% would be okay with an LGBT candidate. So yeah...what you said. :itwasntme:

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12 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Perhaps, in some ways it is like the historic church approach. My grandmother was Lutheran and refused to use the term 'born again.' She was born into the church, from consciousness believed its teachings, had always prayed and walked with Jesus, so no need to be born again. In my mind I figured it was okay--she really was born again--just didn't like the wording. Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and most Pentecostals/Charismatics/Baptists etc. emphasize 'crisis conversion'--that one moment when the soul says yes to God. Perhaps LDS converts have a sense of this--that moment when the prayed the Moroni challenge and felt the burning.

The 'crisis conversion' focus is very much a Pentecostals/Charismatics/Baptists thing.  I've heard some reference "the day that they were saved" and even put it on the calendar.

LDS Christians: yes there are special moments on your walk with Christ that things deepen and those have dates, but....(Jane goes an grabs an analogy).    I don't have a specific date where I fell in love with my earthly husband-- it was something that built up over time.  Yes I know i loved him on date A, but on date B I really knew I loved him and before that was just puppy affection.  And on date C I REALLY knew I loved him.  Etc.   It seems odd to mark my calendar on any specific day as if I didn't love him before that deepening day too.  

 Likewise with my Husband Christ.  It's a walk, growing over time with many many memorable moments.

 

 

It's a different approach to how we think of things.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Perhaps, in some ways it is like the historic church approach. My grandmother was Lutheran and refused to use the term 'born again.' She was born into the church, from consciousness believed its teachings, had always prayed and walked with Jesus, so no need to be born again. In my mind I figured it was okay--she really was born again--just didn't like the wording. Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and most Pentecostals/Charismatics/Baptists etc. emphasize 'crisis conversion'--that one moment when the soul says yes to God. Perhaps LDS converts have a sense of this--that moment when the prayed the Moroni challenge and felt the burning.

For some reason, this reminds me of an experience I had 19 years ago. I was the teacher for the gospel doctrine class, where most LDS adults go (went) for Sunday School during the old 3-hour block. On this particular Sunday, we were studying in the Book of Mormon and I was reviewing the story of the Lamanite king Lamoni (more of a regent viceroy, really; he was subservient to his father, who was called "the old king"). By the efforts of the repentant supermissionary (and Nephite prince) Ammon, Lamoni is converted through a mighty experience, bringing his family and most of his household with him into the Church organized by Alma. A bit later, while Lamoni is traveling with Ammon, the two happen across Lamoni's father, the old king. Lamoni's father demands an accounting of what Lamoni has been doing, why he [Lamoni] didn't come to a great feast organized by the old king, and why Lamoni dares to travel openly with a filthy Nephite. Lamoni explains his entire conversion experience, whereupon—to Lamoni's utter shock—his father rejects the story and demands that Lamoni kill Ammon and come back home with the old king.

After reviewing this well-known Book of Mormon story, I shook my head and made some comment like, "How did Lamoni think it was going to go? Did he really believe his father was just going to accept what he said?" Whereupon an old friend and class member John explained, "Brother Vort, you grew up in the Church, so you probably don't understand how it is to feel the Spirit and conversion when you've never had it before. Everything fits together and becomes so obvious that you assume anyone else will see it, too. You want to tell everyone this great thing you have found. And it's shocking when you find out that other people reject your testimony and flat out don't believe you."

I believe John was right about both aspects. I believe that new converts often experience a great shock when they discover that their heartfelt and seemingly obvious testimony is rejected. I also believe that many lifelong Latter-day Saints, even those who really do have strong testimonies and are themselves deeply converted, may have developed a sort of jaded view that prevents them from understanding the surprise felt by the new converts on coming face-to-face for the first time against a reality that the long-time members have experienced since childhood and take as a matter of course.

Edited by Vort
"Viceroy"—le mot juste!
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