Are unconventional lifestyles implicitly frowned upon?

[EmotionalPomegranate]

Background

Like nearly all of you, I've been stuck at home for the last few months. I was going through my YouTube subscription feed when I found this video from a channel I'm subscribed to:

Youtube Video - "Living on a Self-Sufficient Sailboat for 10 Years + FULL TOUR"

The video essentially showcases a family that lives on a sailboat and travels the world. They rarely stay in one place for more than a few weeks. They earn money from crowdfunding. According to an article titled "Can You Live On A Sailboat Year Round?"  on a website called Life of Sailing, there are estimated to be 50,000-100,000 people worldwide that live this lifestyle.

Though my life situation would make it extremely difficult to pursue that lifestyle, there is something rather tempting about living on a sailboat with my family. However, I can't see any way that a person living that lifestyle could also be an active member of the church.

Questions/Prompts

Let's assume that I live on a sailboat with my wife and children and we travel the world together. I live temple worthy. I go to church nearly every Sunday, though it's always a different church. I go to the temple as often as I'm close to one. I keep the sabbath day holy and teach my family to keep the commandments and follow Jesus Christ. I try to share the gospel across the world wherever I'm allowed to.

1. Could I hold a temple recommend while living this lifestyle?

2. Would I be asked to give up such a lifestyle?

3. Does the church have guidelines for persons in situations such as the one I described?

4. Are wards/stakes always defined geographically? How could I hold a calling?

5. Do you know of any active members of the church that live a lifestyle like this?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi and welcome.  I wanna live on a sailboat full time too.  Heck, if other people are paying for it, make it a yacht. 

 

1. Could I hold a temple recommend while living this lifestyle?

Your temple recommend is based on your answers to the worthiness questions.  Last time I checked, there wasn't one about living on a sailboat.

 

2. Would I be asked to give up such a lifestyle?

Asked by who?  

 

3. Does the church have guidelines for persons in situations such as the one I described?

I suppose it would be up to you to pick a "home port", and a ward to keep your records.  The guidelines would be same for any member. 

 

4. Are wards/stakes always defined geographically? How could I hold a calling?

Yes they are, and it would be hard, because most callings require a little interaction with your ward members.

 

5. Do you know of any active members of the church that live a lifestyle like this?

A few wards ago, I lived in a ward that had quite a number of transcontinental airline pilots who were gone quite a lot - like a month or two at a time.  We were always happy to see them.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

Background

Like nearly all of you, I've been stuck at home for the last few months. I was going through my YouTube subscription feed when I found this video from a channel I'm subscribed to:

Youtube Video - "Living on a Self-Sufficient Sailboat for 10 Years + FULL TOUR"

The video essentially showcases a family that lives on a sailboat and travels the world. They rarely stay in one place for more than a few weeks. They earn money from crowdfunding. According to an article titled "Can You Live On A Sailboat Year Round?"  on a website called Life of Sailing, there are estimated to be 50,000-100,000 people worldwide that live this lifestyle.

Though my life situation would make it extremely difficult to pursue that lifestyle, there is something rather tempting about living on a sailboat with my family. However, I can't see any way that a person living that lifestyle could also be an active member of the church.

Questions/Prompts

Let's assume that I live on a sailboat with my wife and children and we travel the world together. I live temple worthy. I go to church nearly every Sunday, though it's always a different church. I go to the temple as often as I'm close to one. I keep the sabbath day holy and teach my family to keep the commandments and follow Jesus Christ. I try to share the gospel across the world wherever I'm allowed to.

1. Could I hold a temple recommend while living this lifestyle?

2. Would I be asked to give up such a lifestyle?

3. Does the church have guidelines for persons in situations such as the one I described?

4. Are wards/stakes always defined geographically? How could I hold a calling?

5. Do you know of any active members of the church that live a lifestyle like this?

1. Yes. 

2. No. 

3. No

4. Yes they are and holding a calling would be nearly impossible because you need to have a set location and spend time at the ward building. 

5. I don't know of any members who live like how you've described. 

I'm going to be blunt with you-Most wards don't care what you look like or what you do, and most members don't care how you live your life. Now, having said that, there are wards/members that will look down on you/or just be confused if you have different hobbies, a different lifestyle, or look weird.  LDS are like any other kind of people. Some are wonderful, Christ-like, and make great friends. Some are nasty and abrasive and you have zero desire to be around them. It's human nature. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by MormonGator

[EmotionalPomegranate]

While I appreciate your rapid responses, I would rather have you play with me in this space, so to speak. Exercise some critical thinking instead of bluntly making everything so black and white.
 

Last I checked, the church calculates activity based on attendance over a three month period, or something like that. How could I have a recommend if no one ward has record of me attending more than once?

 

[NeuroTypical]

Dude, your temple recommend is between you, whoever you can find that calls himself your bishop, and the Lord.  I'm guessing you are coming here looking for an argument, and that's fine, but I figure your questions are pretty easy to answer. 

Don't violate the forum rules and you should be ok here.

[Vort]

LOL

[Jane_Doe]

Both of @NeuroTypical's responses hit the nail on the head.

[Just_A_Guy]

I loosely follow a couple of YouTube channels by families who live on their sailboats.  I do envy a lot about the lifestyle.  It’s probably worth noting that most of these folks do have a “home base” somewhere—sometimes a physical house they fly home to during hurricane season, sometimes just a brother-in-law where their mail is sent.  But even the most footloose cruisers never seem to completely get away from the idea of a fixed “home” somewhere, someplace.  

I don’t think there’s anything inherently “bad” or “sinful” about that sort of living; but I do think there’s an element of “good, better, best” at play.  We are called to build and become a Zion people.  That is best done in communities.  After six thousand years of recorded human existence, we are about to wind up our second decade where it was possible to build communities across geographical boundaries.  We really have no way of knowing if that kind of globalism will prove sustainable—it relies on a combination of political stability, economic prosperity, cultural liberty, and technological prowess that the world has never seen before and that might collapse in an instant.  Thus far, the Church has kept its traditional model of community-building and has been slow to stake its future on a perpetual pax technologica.  Based on the Church’s current model based on physical proximity, my answers would be:

1)  I think so, if your “home ward” bishop were sympathetic and if you could persuade him you were going to services somewhere as often as possible.

But what would you do with a temple recommend in the middle of the ocean?

We build temples where Zion is.

2)  Formally?  Doubt it, unless you got a real stick-in-the-mud bishop.  But I imagine you’d get a few “gee, we sure could use you!” routines from various local leaders.

3)  I don’t recall ever seeing any.

4)  I imagine your records would stay in one ward, and you might get a calling if it could be done remotely.  (Making is the ward programs each week, maybe?  Relief Society newsletter?)  That’s be handled between you and your bishop.

5)  No.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Just_A_Guy

[laronius]

2 hours ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

While I appreciate your rapid responses, I would rather have you play with me in this space, so to speak. Exercise some critical thinking instead of bluntly making everything so black and white.

I'll try to stir things up a bit.

3 hours ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

1. Could I hold a temple recommend while living this lifestyle?

One of the new recommend questions asks: Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

Maybe during our covid-19 quarantine period you can answer yes to this question but otherwise you would probably have to do some major justifying to answer yes to this question.

[anatess2]

We get tons of "non-traditional" lifestyles in my neck of the woods.

1.  Sailboat:
My niece's ex-boyfriend who is the son of their ward's previous bishopric's 1st counselor lives this lifestyle - sailboating.  Although, they don't do it all year round.  They come home for 2 months during Christmas time to their house in my niece's ward.  He was called 1st counselor during a travel hiatus while the son went to the private high school.  He graduated last year and off they went on the sailboat again - so he got released as 1st counselor and the son became the ex-boyfriend.

They go to church when they're on land wherever that may be.  Otherwise, they stay in touch with their home ward through the internet - yeah, they still do have internet even at sea.  They do tithing settlements and temple recommends at their home ward during Christmas time.

2.  RV-er:
In our ward, the 1st counselor of our bishopric from 2 bishops ago is an RV-er.  He lives on his RV most of the year and comes home to his daughter's house during Christmas.  They usually stay a few months where they park though, because they fund their lifestyle by working at the State Park.  They usually end up in the same State Parks around the country so they've developed Church friends in all the wards they attend throughout the year.  They're registered in our ward so they get their tithing settlement and temple renewals in our ward.

3. Military family:
We also have tons of military families in our ward.  They usually stay a few months and off they go to some other assignment.  Their records move with them.  They usually end up giving a talk on Sunday not too long after they arrive because we never know when they have to leave again.  We had one say in his talk that he found that a disadvantage of being in the military is you end up giving a lot of talks.

4. Students:
We have a YSA ward.  They tend to have students that disappear every summer.

5.  Me:
I live in 2 countries.  I'm technically a member of the ward in the USA and not counted in my ward in the Philippines.  Although, when I'm in the Philippines, they still give me a calling even if it's not "in the books".

[Jane_Doe]

We don't have many sail boats around here (ocean is +1000 miles away).  But we have students that move every 4 months, snowbirds that only come June-Oct, military families, truckers, medical personnel, etc.  I myself spent 5 years maintaining residencies in 3 different cities simultaneously.  

@EmotionalPomegranate, your question seems based in the idea that everything about life / living the Gospel is cookie cutter.  It is not remotely.  Circumstances vary, and that why you / the Church do things individualized.  

[Guest Scott]

6 hours ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

1. Could I hold a temple recommend while living this lifestyle?

Yes.

6 hours ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

2. Would I be asked to give up such a lifestyle?

Maybe.  You can and might be asked if you can change your lifestyle to fulfill a calling.  I have been asked twice.  Once I said that didn't feel right about it (the Bishop agreed after listening to the situation) since I already had made a commitment to my employer.  The other time I did.

6 hours ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

5. Do you know of any active members of the church that live a lifestyle like this?

I do.  Sort of.  For me it's a vehicle rather than sailboat and for work rather than pleasure (though I do travel a lot outside work as well).

I travel for work a lot of places on highway, airport, city, county, and Federal projects.  

Right now I'm in Leadville (Colorado).   Last week I was Grand Junction (about 200 miles from here).  Next week I'll be in Craig (also about 200 miles from here, but in a different direction).

I have attended literally hundreds of wards. 

As far as callings go, sometimes you just have to tell your current bishop and the bishop wherever you might be visiting your situation and offer your services.  It's not always easy to have a steady calling, but there are still things you can do.

In Granby Colorado I said that I would be staying a few weeks. We (my wife and I were working together at the time) were asked to speak in church even though we were visitors.

In Jackson Wyoming I asked if I could help out with scouts and I did.

I also offered to help with a scout campout in Rangely Colorado.

[JohnsonJones]

1.  I've never had a situation like this or dealt with something specifically this way.  Most in this thread are saying one could have a temple recommend, but when I think about it, I think that this may be a no, they wouldn't be able to have a temple recommend unless their Bishop stretched some of the things behind it.  Unless there is a way to verify church attendance, this becomes a VERY IFFY situation.  You're depending on a Bishop that will sign off on the temple recommend itself.

If the Bishop ONLY sees the individual ONCE every two years (we are taking the actual sailboat lifestyle where they never come to the same place really, they travel constantly, meaning they might never even return to a home ward if they have one) that's a big leap to say they've gone to church actively.  We have this situation with homeless individuals at times as well. 

If they are so mobile that they never really come to the same spot at least once every two years, it gets even harder.  There IS a way to deal with some of this that I've seen in areas where the church is not widespread (for example, I was in Greece where the nearest branch was two hours away and with some people having no way to get there easily on Sundays, or the Middle East where they may have on branch in a nation, and other such situations), but in those they have a home unit, the branch has records, and there is regular contact (normally) of some sort so they know what is happening and everyone's intentions.

Someone who is never in the same spot, but sailing constantly around the world, I can see problems with this individual getting a recommend.  There are plenty of temples that are close enough to the coastline to be visited by those in such a lifestyle, but the accountability factor would be difficult for anyone asking a Bishop to issue a recommend in this instance.  If encountering something like this (which I never have) I'd probably ask the Stake President...and they may refer to the Area Authority.  It may end up that one would have to get a recommend via an Area or District presidency.

[Carborendum]

15 hours ago, EmotionalPomegranate said:

While I appreciate your rapid responses, I would rather have you play with me in this space, so to speak. Exercise some critical thinking instead of bluntly making everything so black and white.
 

Last I checked, the church calculates activity based on attendance over a three month period, or something like that. How could I have a recommend if no one ward has record of me attending more than once?

No one records your attendance on a permanent list.  Even when you sign the Sunday School roster as they pass it around, your name isn't recorded on a permanent basis.  It is mostly counting heads.

But I believe NT's question is a profound one.  In case you didn't catch it...

15 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

2. Would I be asked to give up such a lifestyle?

Asked by who?  

No human would tell you that you "MUST" or else...  But the Lord may guide you to the practical reality that you can't actually SERVE anyone in a Christlike way without spending significant time with them.  Christianity is about service.  And if you're spending most of your life basically on a permanent vacation, then I would ask whom do you serve?

One of the questions of the temple recommend is about attending your regular church meetings.

As a an example of practical reality, I spent much of my life working away from homebase.  I was often on assignment to over 40 states (I haven't taken the time for an exact count) and to 7 foreign countries.  I've been gone days, weeks, and months away from my family.  This was very similar to a military family where the family doesn't go with the soldier.  And while I kept my temple recommend through all of that time, it really was impractical for me to hold a calling or do anything useful to building up the Kingdom of God.

During all that time, I was considered active.  And my family was being raised in the Church.  I tried to call (before the internet was ubiquitous) whenever I could.  By the time Skype came around, I used that quite often.  But how can you really do home teaching (before ministering)?  How can you be a teacher or any type of leader?  You can't.  Virtually all callings require personal contact with other members of the ward.

A few years ago, I settled down.  I was able to see my family every night.  And I was called to do many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.  The time of city hopping was a time of gray miasma.  The time of serving my fellow men is a time of clear daylight -- sunshine in my soul.

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

If the Bishop ONLY sees the individual ONCE every two years (we are taking the actual sailboat lifestyle where they never come to the same place really, they travel constantly, meaning they might never even return to a home ward if they have one) that's a big leap to say they've gone to church actively.  We have this situation with homeless individuals at times as well. 

Someone who is never in the same spot, but sailing constantly around the world, I can see problems with this individual getting a recommend.  There are plenty of temples that are close enough to the coastline to be visited by those in such a lifestyle, but the accountability factor would be difficult for anyone asking a Bishop to issue a recommend in this instance.

Just like Bishops don't ask you to prove you're a full tithe payer by asking for your bank records, Bishops don't ask you to prove you're a regular Church attendee by pulling your attendance records.  You simply need to explain your circumstances during the interview if you've maintained activity while sailing.  It is best, of course, to belong to a home ward even when sailing so that you have a ward that you maintain constant communication with and a Bishop that knows your circumstances.

[JohnsonJones]

39 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Just like Bishops don't ask you to prove you're a full tithe payer by asking for your bank records, Bishops don't ask you to prove you're a regular Church attendee by pulling your attendance records.  You simply need to explain your circumstances during the interview if you've maintained activity while sailing.  It is best, of course, to belong to a home ward even when sailing so that you have a ward that you maintain constant communication with and a Bishop that knows your circumstances.

They don't have to, they know if they actually have seen you, and they can see if someone is active rather easily as quarterly records are not suddenly tossed before the quarter.

If a Bishop sees you smoking and drinking, whether you answer yes or no on keeping the word of wisdom is rather moot. (Edit - some Bishops may make an exception, I've heard of such, and some may not.  It probably depends on the Bishop in this case, but generally, they are not going to be favorable in signing off on it if they know you smoke and drink and you blatantly lie about it).

If someone is not in your ward, it is HIGHLY unusual to issue them a temple recommend.  If you do not see them for a YEAR and cannot confirm they are actually in your ward boundaries, they are not at the address listed, and cannot be located, many Bishops will send them off to Salt Lake at that point. 

Two years is the time period to renew temple recommends.  If someone is in a constantly sailing lifestyle where they are not in the same spot (so, not coming back annually, constantly on the move), it is going to be very hard to retain a home ward, much less have a stable Bishop. 

When I was in ward leadership, if someone I did not know and had never seen at church suddenly asked to get a temple recommend from me, I probably would not outright deny it, but I'd probably have asked the Stake President for more guidance on the matter.

Edited April 28, 2020 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

If someone is not in your ward, it is HIGHLY unusual to issue them a temple recommend.

They issued me one.  And it was only the 3rd or so time I got my recommend renewed since I newly got it too.  And that was when recommends were renewed yearly.  Bishop never saw me before.  

[Guest Scott]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:53 AM, JohnsonJones said:

They don't have to, they know if they actually have seen you, and they can see if someone is active rather easily as quarterly records are not suddenly tossed before the quarter.

I would think that most (active) people that have to travel a lot have already told their bishops about the situation.   I know I always have.   

Plus, even though I travel a lot, I have always asked the bishop if there is something I can still help out with.   If I am visiting a ward temporarily for a few weeks or months, I usually let that bishop know too.  

[priesthoodpower]

If you want to and your intent is to remain worthy then yes, you can live on a boat traveling the world and be in good standing. The Lord understands and any bishop would agree. 

In the pre existence we were not all called upon to come to this earth and be robots. The world, and yes even Gods plan of salvation advances off the backs of individuals who are trailblazers in all the fields of science, medicine, exploration, religion etc... That is what the whole Joseph Smith story is about, seeking what is within you, following the impressions of God that is within you.

Whos to say that after 10yrs on a boat medical science learns something about these peoples bodys because of their diet and lifestyle that becomes a cure for some disease? that might be a bad example but you get the point.

Some peoples mission in this life is greater than what might be a typical and somewhat restricting religious lifestyle.

Edited April 30, 2020 by priesthoodpower