NeuroTypical

The Slow Return to "Normal"

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3 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The defendant is either a petulant child, or a sociopath.  

Also, the name calling is really beneath the dignity of any normal person. To quote Elder Bednar, "Stop it."

???

JAG set up a hypothetical situation, then made a (rather obvious) judgment about the hypothetical defendant. I'm pretty sure Elder Bednar was not talking about such hypothetical scenarios in his advice. (In fact, I'm pretty sure it was Elder Uchtdorf, not Elder Bednar, who gave the "Stop it" sermon. But that's another matter.)

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37 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

The problem with your argument is the if's. If you are worried as a parent that your child could be infected, then you should keep them home, in a bubble with filtered or canned air. Honestly, did you learn nothing from the story of David Vetter? Also, the name calling is really beneath the dignity of any normal person. To quote Elder Bednar, "Stop it."

Certainly there’s a duty for all people to protect themselves, and that’s something that courts can and do consider in tort cases.  And yeah, susceptible people should be trying to stay home and take other precautions.

Of course, there are times when the susceptible simply don’t know that they’re susceptible; and other times when the susceptible (or those who live with them) simply have no choice but to place themselves in risky situations to obtain income, procure the necessities of life, and so on.  To simply tell all plaintiffs “well, the strong can be as reckless as they like, and if you don’t like it, you shouldn’t have been out and about, so we aren’t even going to give you access to the courts to make your case” is fundamentally a rationale for decriminalizing all assaults, batteries, rapes, robberies, etc. that take place outside of a victim’s own home.

By the way, the “stop it” phrase came from President Uchtdorf, not Elder Bednar.  And I haven’t name-called anyone in particular; I’ve merely pointed out that people who act in a particular way are members of a particular class that doesn’t merit excessive consideration or protection on our part.  Which is actually your argument, as well—except that I’m condemning the class of people whose behavior is as a matter of definition childish and/or sociopathic, while you’re condemning the class of people who are immunocompromised (and their loved ones).  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Certainly there’s a duty for all people to protect themselves, and that’s something that courts can and do consider in tort cases.  And yeah, susceptible people should be trying to stay home and take other precautions.

Of course, there are times when the susceptible simply don’t know that they’re susceptible; and other times when the susceptible simply have no choice but to place themselves in risky situations to obtain income, procure the necessities of life, and so on.  To simply tell all plaintiffs “well, the strong can be as reckless as they like, and if you don’t like it, you shouldn’t have been out and about, so we aren’t even going to give you access to the courts to make your case” is fundamentally a rationale for decriminalizing all assaults, batteries, rapes, robberies, etc. that take place outside of a victim’s own home.

By the way, the “stop it” phrase came from President Uchtdorf, not Elder Bednar.  And I haven’t name-called anyone in particular; I’ve merely pointed out that people who act in a particular way are members of a particular class that doesn’t merit excessive consideration or protection on our part.  Which is actually your argument, as well—except that I’m condemning the class of people who are childish and/or sociopathic, while you’re condemning the class of people who are immunocompromised.  

Since you brought it up and because I respect your opinion - I would drill down a little.  I have always believed that there should be what I call an intelligent use clause.  This means that one must have the intelligence to have a minimal responsibility to operate or move about under generally known conditions.  An extreme but actual example - I believe one should have minimal intelligence to operate a power rotor lawn mower.   So if two guys think the use such a tool to trim a hedge and incur an accident that results in injury - they should not be able to use the courts to sue for damages because the mower manufacture did not explicitly note in their use documentation that the device should not be so used. 

In short - if someone lacks the intelligence to properly behave or use common products - then they must prove intent to harm to recover damages.  

One caveat - if someone knows they are infected and do not "use" intelligence to mitigate harm - then they should be held accountable for damages.  If the governments provides guidelines for infected individuals that are followed - then no one is liable and all must deal with whatever their fortune.   I would like your opinion as well as a better understanding concerning the law and justice.

 

The Traveler

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4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Since you brought it up and because I respect your opinion - I would drill down a little.  I have always believed that there should be what I call an intelligent use clause.  This means that one must have the intelligence to have a minimal responsibility to operate or move about under generally known conditions.  An extreme but actual example - I believe one should have minimal intelligence to operate a power rotor lawn mower.   So if two guys think the use such a tool to trim a hedge and incur an accident that results in injury - they should not be able to use the courts to sue for damages because the mower manufacture did not explicitly note in their use documentation that the device should not be so used. 

In short - if someone lacks the intelligence to properly behave or use common products - then they must prove intent to harm to recover damages.  

One caveat - if someone knows they are infected and do not "use" intelligence to mitigate harm - then they should be held accountable for damages.  If the governments provides guidelines for infected individuals that are followed - then no one is liable and all must deal with whatever their fortune.   I would like your opinion as well as a better understanding concerning the law and justice.

 

The Traveler

Yeah, I think you’re basically talking about the contributory negligence/comparative negligence doctrines—the idea that my lawsuit is barred (or the amount I can recover is limited) if my injury was, to varying extents, my own darned fault.

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Quote

1- Masks are primarily to help prevent sick people spreading it to others.  Consider a very simple analogy - you want to spit in someone's mouth.  If they're not wearing a mask, mission accomplished.  If they are wearing a mask, you can still spit on the mask and mission partially accomplished.  If you're wearing a mask, it's pretty darn hard to spit on someone's mouth. 

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

1. Honestly, who thinks up these analogies? Gross. If I am sick I know that I should stay home. Also, for the a-symptomatic argument, I am avoiding crowds an close contact. Also, I am definitely not going around spitting in people's mouths. lol

 

So, again, I'd urge folks to read the link to the writeup I posted above.  It talks all about droplets expelled by breathing, sneezing, talking, singing, and coughing.  It talks about fast these droplets travel, how big they are, how long they stay in the air.  It talks about how many virus particles someone needs to take into their bodies in order to become infected.

If you can't grapple with the realities of aresolized infected bodily fluids, and your extent of thinking about it is to dismiss such things with a wave of your hand and a "gross - I'm not going around spitting in people's mouths", then you can't hope to have a valid opinion about how this virus (or any other that transmits in fluids) works.  

Again, here's the link: 

15 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

This is one of the best writeups I've seen on how the virus spreads.  Toilet flushes and choirs - who knew?

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2xk4zglRd6oPRKe-hQoOKq9GOznuLTY_uFAccJCuXKsSR3fmreeztE-wo

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, again, I'd urge folks to read the link to the writeup I posted above.  It talks all about droplets expelled by breathing, sneezing, talking, singing, and coughing.  It talks about fast these droplets travel, how big they are, how long they stay in the air.  It talks about how many virus particles someone needs to take into their bodies in order to become infected.

If you can't grapple with the realities of aresolized infected bodily fluids, and your extent of thinking about it is to dismiss such things with a wave of your hand and a "gross - I'm not going around spitting in people's mouths", then you can't hope to have a valid opinion about how this virus (or any other that transmits in fluids) works.

This is an issue that has concerned me since the quarantine began. Some people are Monk-like (the TV character) in their paranoia about and revulsion toward shared body fluids. But such contact is largely unavoidable in a healthy (<-- note the word) society. We don't want a bunch of Monks walking around, taking comfort in their masks.

In a pandemic, the mores change. I understand and agree with that. But we and our families need to avoid internalizing the attitudes that often accompany such behaviors. Again, it simply is not healthy.

The ancients did not have any understanding of microbiology, but they understood the infectious nature of various diseases. This is why leprosy was such a dreaded disease, and why lepers were cast off and treated as less than human. But the same Lord who gave the commandments about lepers to the children of Israel also went among them to serve them. I do not for a moment believe that Jesus did so because he was magically protected from leprosy. I believe he did it as an ensample to us to go and do likewise. We should not foolishly expose ourselves to harm, but we absolutely should not adopt an attitude that other people are bags of diseases to be avoided, or at least to be exposed to only within the protected confines of a body condom. I'd rather live in a world of deadly infectious diseases than a world where people treated each other in such a way.

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3 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

5. Also, the gloves are being left on the ground all over. Come on people, clean up after yourselves, don't be gross. :)

Now I can absolutely agree with this.  People should not leave their trash everywhere...that's...trashy.

People should at least clean up their own mess and not contribute to littering.  Thus far I haven't seen this in my area, but I have heard that this may be occurring in some areas.  That's a horrible thing for people to be doing. 

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

???

JAG set up a hypothetical situation, then made a (rather obvious) judgment about the hypothetical defendant. I'm pretty sure Elder Bednar was not talking about such hypothetical scenarios in his advice. (In fact, I'm pretty sure it was Elder Uchtdorf, not Elder Bednar, who gave the "Stop it" sermon. But that's another matter.)

Yeah, I always mix them up for some reason because they came in together. lol

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20 hours ago, Godless said:

And if every scientist and medical expert says it's a good idea?

Good for them. I don't trust very many bureaucrats, especially Fauci, he is as corrupt as they come.

(What the world? this is a double post for some reason. funky.)

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein

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14 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

..at least until they find another factor that could be causing such a disparity of the statistics.  Without another reason, the guess is that it is due to COVID-19.

Murders are up because of the way many places are handling the quarantine.  Domestic violence has turned to murder at a much higher rate because violent spouses and parents are with their families ALL THE TIME.

Suicides are up because many people are out of work and have no way to make a living.  And other reasons:

https://wellbeingtrust.org/news/new-wbt-robert-graham-center-analysis-the-covid-pandemic-could-lead-to-75000-additional-deaths-from-alcohol-and-drug-misuse-and-suicide/

And if you can show me the actual data rather than

Quote

They've been doing comparisons regarding the average death rates

I could give you a bit of an analysis and see just how much difference there really is.  But this statement by itself is not very convincing.

Edited by Carborendum

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

FB_IMG_1588963486190.jpg

Scott, I know we've clashed on many things.  But I can certainly appreciate your sense of humor.  I suppose I ought to show my comic side more often as well.  Maybe we could get along better.

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Good for them. I don't trust very many bureaucrats, especially Fauci, he is as corrupt as they come.

What makes you think he's corrupt?

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58 minutes ago, Godless said:

What makes you think he's corrupt?

I don't know about you but I don't keep notes on everything I read. Look into it yourself and make your own decisions. I am not going to waste my time spoon feeding you the information that is just a google search away. cheers.

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Aren't you glad that merchants have the right to refuse service to whoever they want to?  

For sure.

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Well I just came across a harsh reality.

I had stated before that because I was able to find a project and have income now, that I was able to stop eating food storage and get to the store for real food. *Bleep* wrong answer.  Thank you for playing anyway.

Yes, I have some funds coming in.  But I forgot that the food chain had been severely harmed by this.  The purchasing restrictions at stores are making it impossible to buy the food required for a family my size.  We'll have to go shopping three times a week.  We're used to going once every two weeks.

Slow return to normal?  Meh.  How slow is this going to be?

The new client's office is all video conferencing and internet based.  The company has presented the plans for returning to the office which include temperature screening at the door.  I don't know how that will be accurate given the Texas heat in the summer -- even in the mornings.  But we'll see.

The hardware store is a bustling.  Home Depot and Lowe's are going to make a killing in the next few months.

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19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well I just came across a harsh reality.

I had stated before that because I was able to find a project and have income now, that I was able to stop eating food storage and get to the store for real food. *Bleep* wrong answer.  Thank you for playing anyway.  

We've been purchasing from local farmers and fishermen who are hit hard by the restaurant closures.  They even deliver!

 

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Slow return to normal?  Meh.  How slow is this going to be?  

Luckily, you're in Texas.  Although in the liberal armpit of Houston (but not as bad as Austin) I bet you're still gonna be faster return than many other places.

 

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The hardware store is a bustling.  Home Depot and Lowe's are going to make a killing in the next few months.

They've already been making a killing.  Even Walmart has been making a killing.  Big Box stores are making killings.  Small stores are dying.  Well, at least the family-owned Ace Hardware by me is doing ok.  The dry cleaners is hurting bad... may not be able to reopen.

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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We've been purchasing from local farmers and fishermen who are hit hard by the restaurant closures.  They even deliver!

We actually have a pretty big garden on our 5 acre lot.  Mrs. Carb has been having Spiritual Impressions that we need to have a bigger garden.  We've been building because I love my wife.

It's growing.  But the season is not quite where we'd like it.

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Luckily, you're in Texas.  Although in the liberal armpit of Houston (but not as bad as Austin) I bet you're still gonna be faster return than many other places.

I'm outside of Houston.  In a more rural county next door.  A Harris County (the county of Houston) magistrate issued a $1000 fine for anyone not wearing a mask in public.  The judges in our (more conservative) county made a public statement,"We don't want to tell other judges what to do in their jurisdiction.  But we're not going to be doing anything like that here."  Sheriffs in our county have declared our county a "2A sanctuary county."  They're going along with the "come and take them" philosophy by Gov Abbott.

So, it appears that we're somewhat sheltered from the liberal madness.

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Digging in for the long haul, 

Update this week in UK: people told they could  go back to work if can maintain social distancing (work from home if you can). Transport systems are an issue. Now allowed to exercise more freely and meeting people in open spaces - as long as social distancing adhered to. Unless you live in Scotland, Wales or Ireland who have not yet relaxed rules.

Care homes still not able to access testing kits they have been promised. PPE for medical staff still an issue. These are now the places of highest incidents of contracting the virus.  Healthcare staff dealing with Covid patients now expect to contract the virus.

No church until at least 5th July (I expect it to take longer as I predict a second spike will step back the recent progress)

Government plans on sending back 5 year old to school first - which makes no sense morally, socially or educationally. I am hoping to have face to face teaching up and running at my university by September.

Its a great big mess.  Economy sunk, death rate falling slowly but still over 600 people a day. Health care system will have long term repercussions to rehabilitate not just COVID patients but those whos treatment has been postponed and the back log of surgeries etc which now can go ahead.

Roll on 2021

 

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